Atheist Mormon Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 Or He does not lose at all his fights against Satan? Or is it blaspheme to entertain such a notion? We Humans have very little to go about establishing any type of facts....Except maybe His famous and lengthy joust with Satan when he threw Job like a thousand dollars chip on the table; "Try this one Satan for a bet". Sure enough not matter how Satan utilized the last trick on his sleeve he surely lost. Job came out unscratched. So far we indulged the 'fun" part of this. if there's interest.....I will ask the second, chilling part II of God's act.
Glenn101 Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 This is a topic I do not think that should be allowed. We are not God's judges. It is the other way around. I am not going to go there. Glenn
The Nehor Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 Yes, the fact that he created other kingdoms proves he is willing to make the best of losing a fight for a child. 3
carbon dioxide Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 God does not lose against Satan. Nothing that Satan does can change or alter who God is. Satan can win battles against US. He does work to make us as miserable as he is and he will have some success in that regardless of how many of his children on this world make it back to the Celestial Kingdom, God will still remain where he is and he has billions of other worlds where I imagine more of his children do make it back. God is fine regardless of what happens.
longview Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 6 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: God is fine regardless of what happens. He did weep over the world wide flood. 1
carbon dioxide Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 8 minutes ago, longview said: He did weep over the world wide flood. Weeping over the choices we make but our choices does not make God a loser. We lose for the bad choices we make but God does not lose.
emeliza Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 By loser, I am thinking you mean of the spirits and souls that have been lost to Satan, including Satan himself. I don't think that makes God a 'loser', but I think God has lost during His eternity. He has lost many spirt children that He loved very very much and I think he weeps and it breaks His heart. However He still felt agency was more important than forcing us, even though He knew He would lose some of us. I don't think He has ever lost one of His children without a fight, but I do believe He has done so 'graciously' if that is the right wording. I don't think God is bitter or envious, but I believe He grieves. God loves all His children. Personally, I don't like the story of Job or most of the old testament. I don't think it is accurate. Too much human involvement. Course I feel that way about Nephi killing Laban as well. It is probably one of those weak areas for me where I want to turn God into my own vision, but I greatly dislike the idea of God directing anyone to be killed. I am okay with being wrong on my 'opinion' of God here as I know dang well I will give God properties that I like in some cases. I try not to, but I think everyone to some extend makes God into their own image (not of ourselves, but of who we think He is). 3
Bobbieaware Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Or He does not lose at all his fights against Satan? Or is it blaspheme to entertain such a notion? We Humans have very little to go about establishing any type of facts....Except maybe His famous and lengthy joust with Satan when he threw Job like a thousand dollars chip on the table; "Try this one Satan for a bet". Sure enough not matter how Satan utilized the last trick on his sleeve he surely lost. Job came out unscratched. So far we indulged the 'fun" part of this. if there's interest.....I will ask the second, chilling part II of God's act. According to the clear and unambiguous declarations found in Doctrine and Covenants 19, 76, 88 And 138, the only children God will lose are the sons of perdition. All the rest will ultimately come unto Christ and bow the knee unto the Father. What follows is just a small sampling of the teachings of which I speak. 36 These are they (the sons of perdition) who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels— 37 And the ONLY ONES on whom the second death shall have any power; 38 Yea, verily, The the ONLY ONES who shall not be REDEEMED in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath. 39 For ALL THE REST shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made. 40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us— 41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness; 42 That through him ALL might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;(D&C 76) But even in the case of the sons of perdition it's inaccurate to say God lost a battle because it's the sons of perdition themselves who, as free agents, refuse to receive the eternal blessings freely extended to all mankind through the sufferings, death, resurrection, and infinite and eternal victory of the Lord Jesus Christ. So why all the spookiness and gloom? Edited January 15, 2017 by Bobbieaware 2
Bobbieaware Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 20 minutes ago, emeliza said: By loser, I am thinking you mean of the spirits and souls that have been lost to Satan, including Satan himself. I don't think that makes God a 'loser', but I think God has lost during His eternity. He has lost many spirt children that He loved very very much and I think he weeps and it breaks His heart. However He still felt agency was more important than forcing us, even though He knew He would lose some of us. I don't think He has ever lost one of His children without a fight, but I do believe He has done so 'graciously' if that is the right wording. I don't think God is bitter or envious, but I believe He grieves. God loves all His children. Personally, I don't like the story of Job or most of the old testament. I don't think it is accurate. Too much human involvement. Course I feel that way about Nephi killing Laban as well. It is probably one of those weak areas for me where I want to turn God into my own vision, but I greatly dislike the idea of God directing anyone to be killed. I am okay with being wrong on my 'opinion' of God here as I know dang well I will give God properties that I like in some cases. I try not to, but I think everyone to some extend makes God into their own image (not of ourselves, but of who we think He is). Do you have a problem with God destroying people as a consequence of their wickedness?
emeliza Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: Do you have a problem with God destroying people as a consequence of their wickedness? I don't think God destroys people as a consequence. I think people destroy themselves. I think God tries to help, but ultimately, it is on us. I also don't think God withdraws when we do wrong, I think we withdraw by putting up a wall between ourselves and Him. I tend to have a slightly different view point than the mainstream. 3
Bobbieaware Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 Just now, emeliza said: I don't think God destroys people as a consequence. I think people destroy themselves. I think God tries to help, but ultimately, it is on us. I also don't think God withdraws when we do wrong, I think we withdraw by putting up a wall between ourselves and Him. I tend to have a slightly different view point than the mainstream. It doesn't matter if the people brought it on themselves because it is God, as the living embodiment of eternal law, who sent forth at his command the cataclysms of nature that destroyed many of the Nephites at the time of Christ's death. God is the eternal judge, and it is he who convicts and punishes. And if it is God's will that a serial murderer and crime boss like Laban receive death, he reserves the right to call upon one of his servants to carry out the death sentence. 1
Atheist Mormon Posted January 15, 2017 Author Posted January 15, 2017 31 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: Do you have a problem with God destroying people as a consequence of their wickedness? No, I have a problem to create a species and empowering them to destroy themselves.....Why would I do that? I wouldn't create humans and give them nuclear bombs as free agency....why would I do that? The second part of my follow up question was exactly along the same lines......Why would I create humans on a tectonically active, lethal place and let Tsunami take their lives? It just doesn't make sense.... The only theory/fact does make sense is the Evolution the way Darwin explained, which is a design but not an intelligent one.
The Nehor Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 25 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: No, I have a problem to create a species and empowering them to destroy themselves.....Why would I do that? I wouldn't create humans and give them nuclear bombs as free agency....why would I do that? The second part of my follow up question was exactly along the same lines......Why would I create humans on a tectonically active, lethal place and let Tsunami take their lives? It just doesn't make sense.... The only theory/fact does make sense is the Evolution the way Darwin explained, which is a design but not an intelligent one. I think you have loaded in here the idea that God wants humans to live forever and never experience tragedy or misery. 2
Bobbieaware Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: And No, I have a problem to create a species and empowering them to destroy themselves.....Why would I do that? I wouldn't create humans and give them nuclear bombs as free agency....why would I do that? The second part of my follow up question was exactly along the same lines......Why would I create humans on a tectonically active, lethal place and let Tsunami take their lives? It just doesn't make sense.... The only theory/fact does make sense is the Evolution the way Darwin explained, which is a design but not an intelligent one. Either way, the world and the universe remain exactly the same. One can believe there is no God and therefore also believe all the tragedies and injustices that have ever occurred throughout history will never be made right. Or, on the other hand, all things can remain exactly as they are and one can chose to believe all the same tragedies and injustices will be made right in that glorious day when God fulfills his solemn promise to dry all our tears and heal all broken hearts. I'm one of those who believes things are the way they are because existence can only be affirmed by allowing intelligences the fullest expression of free agency within an unchangeable reality that can only exist upon the principle of there being polar opposition in all things. There must be an allowance for the fullest expression of love and the fullest expression of hate; the fullest expression of good and the fullest expression of evil; the fullest manifestation of light and the fullest manifestation of darkness, and there must be the fullest experience of pleasure and the fullest experience of pain -- otherwise there can be no existence. The prophet Lehi testifies even God himself cannot attempt to alter the unchangable reality of eternal opposition in all things, even in the slightest, without also destroying free agency and causing all things to vanish into nothingness. Reality is the way it is and not even God can attempt to change the everlasting law of opposition without all things being thrown out of balance and into a chaotic state in which no one could ever be happy. It's enough for me to know God cannot change reality and that we must deal with reality as it is and not as some with limited perspective wish it could be. God knows how tough and unfair it all seems at present, and it's for this very reason that the Father sent his Only Begotten Son to experience what it's like to be the greatest victim of injustice and tragedy who ever lived, and that descent into the deepest depths of agony and woe occurred when he took upon his sensative and empathetic soul the full weight of all the sins, miseries and sicknesses that ever were, are now, and ever will be. And by this great sacrifice of infinite and eternal suffering we are imstructed by the example of Christ himself that the most dazzling light can follow the darkest of nights, in the Lord's case when he rose from the dead and ascended to the right hand of the Fathet. There is a very great need for each member of the human family to come to comprehend that within this existence of infinite and eternal polar opposition in all things there exists the wondrous reality of a loving God who has gone through the worst of it, and because he well endured his great trial of faith he has been given unlimited power to save and heal to the uttermost. Like I said at first, you are free to believe there is no God, no healing power and no hope of salvation because you don't think it's right that God would allow this world to be so brutal and unfair. But I believe the world's very brutality and unfairness is sure evidence that the opposing forces of compassion and justice also exist, even the compassion and justice of the God of salvation who will surely lift us out of this valley of sorrow and woe we once volunteered to enter. and because of his perfect compassion and justice he will make all things more than right in the end, and all but the sons of perdition will shout praises to his his wisdom, mercy, justice and love. Edited January 15, 2017 by Bobbieaware 1
emeliza Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 All I think when I read this is, you must not be parents if you don't get that you can create something that has the ability to destroy itself by choices it makes while you have to sit back and watch it, praying the adult child takes your hand and lets you help. 2
Bobbieaware Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, emeliza said: All I think when I read this is, you must not be parents if you don't get that you can create something that has the ability to destroy itself by choices it makes while you have to sit back and watch it, praying the adult child takes your hand and lets you help. The point is the universe isn't going to destroy itself because there is a loving God of infinite and eternal healing power who won't let it happen. And it seems you don't at all understand what I wrote. You missed my point. Edited January 15, 2017 by Bobbieaware
Bobbieaware Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) Duplicate Edited January 15, 2017 by Bobbieaware
emeliza Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 14 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: The point is the universe isn't going to destroy itself because there is a loving God of infinite and eternal healing power who won't let it happen. And it seems you don't at all understand what I wrote. You missed my point. Maybe I did. But I think the point of agency was to allow us to grow, decide and learn. How much do people grow if every time they screw up, they get a do over with no consequences. That being said, only so few will be "cast out". The vast majority will end up in a realm in the eternities. And for those "cast out", I would guess there is a plan for helping them that we do not know. 1
Bobbieaware Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 1 minute ago, emeliza said: Maybe I did. But I think the point of agency was to allow us to grow, decide and learn. How much do people grow if every time they screw up, they get a do over with no consequences. That being said, only so few will be "cast out". The vast majority will end up in a realm in the eternities. And for those "cast out", I would guess there is a plan for helping them that we do not know. Read my first post on this thread. It will only take a minute.
Bobbieaware Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, emeliza said: Maybe I did. But I think the point of agency was to allow us to grow, decide and learn. How much do people grow if every time they screw up, they get a do over with no consequences. That being said, only so few will be "cast out". The vast majority will end up in a realm in the eternities. And for those "cast out", I would guess there is a plan for helping them that we do not know. And please show me what I said in my post that is at odds with the above.
Bobbieaware Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 U 44 minutes ago, emeliza said: All I think when I read this is, you must not be parents if you don't get that you can create something that has the ability to destroy itself by choices it makes while you have to sit back and watch it, praying the adult child takes your hand and lets you help. Was the above post written in response to Atheirst Mormon or Bobbieaware?
Atheist Mormon Posted January 15, 2017 Author Posted January 15, 2017 9 hours ago, The Nehor said: I think you have loaded in here the idea that God wants humans to live forever and never experience tragedy or misery. That wouldn't be such a bad idea....
emeliza Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said: U Was the above post written in response to Atheirst Mormon or Bobbieaware? I got you two confused. My fault for reading when I was tired. 1
Bobbieaware Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 11 minutes ago, emeliza said: I got you two confused. My fault for reading when I was tired. I thought so. It's always best to quote the post you're responding to in order to avoid confusion.
emeliza Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 24 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: I thought so. It's always best to quote the post you're responding to in order to avoid confusion. My confusion wasn't in lacking to quote you. It was in thinking you were the original poster instead of going back and reading the whole thread again.
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