Three Book of Mormon Curiosities

[Bernard Gui]

1. Abinadi taunted King Noah with this analogy as reported by the King's henchmen:

Quote

"....he saith thou shalt be as the blossoms of a thistle, which, when it is fully ripe, if the wind bloweth, it is driven forth upon the face of the land." Mosiah 12:12.

Question: Are there thistle plants in the Mesoamerican area where some believe these events took place?

 

2. Alma, Amulek, and Zeezrom witnessed the fiery execution of the faithful at the hands of the lawyers, judges, and chief judge, but also
 

Quote

 

"....they brough forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire." Alma 14:9.

Question: Metalic or organic records?

 

 

3. When Alma was speaking with Antionah and his followers, he said

Quote

"And they [glad tidings] are made known to us in plain terms, that we may understand, that we cannot err; and this because of our being wanderers in a strange land."

 Why do you think Alma still felt like a wanderer in a strange land after being in the Americas for almost 500 years?

 

 

[Calm]

The last question...same reason as why Jews spoke of "next year in Jerusalem" for so many centuries:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'Shana_Haba'ah

[Glenn101]

12 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Question: Are there thistle plants in the Mesoamerican area where some believe these events took place?

Google says Yes.

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Question: Metalic or organic records?

Since we have no further information, maybe we should take for granted that they were flammable (or that the fire was really, really hot).

Glenn

[Calm]

Amate paper dates back at least to 75 CE:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amate

Family or smaller community records would unlikely be metallic, there might be s number of metallic records among the government, religious organization, or very wealthy, but the scripture sounds more like on a family or local religious community level which unlikely to have the wealth or heritage of metal records.

Metal would have been valuable as well and not likely just tossed into a big pit with everything else that would have rendered it difficult to purify.

So most likely organic IMO.

[Marmonboy]

Having read the above article on amate, it sounds to me exactly like the sort of thing copies of the scriptures would be made on.

[Calm]

The only problem is the timing.  Alma is about 85 BC, so maybe, maybe not.  Though it does look that there was another type of bark paper showing up 300 BC, which would be safe to assume it could and would be used for the purpose.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Calm

[Marmonboy]

It's highly unlikely that that earliest amate codex was the first one ever invented. But it does demonstrate that papermaking was known anciently in that part of the world.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

1. ........................................ Question: Are there thistle plants in the Mesoamerican area where some believe these events took place?

A type of thistle pervades Mesoamerica, from Mexico to Guatemala, and beyond: Cirsium mexicanum.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/pontus_aratoun/5594930379/ .

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

2. ..............................   Question: Metalic or organic records?

Mike Coe says that "Maya paper was more durable and a better writing surface than papyrus."  The Maya called that bark paper huun, and Coe posits that it was formulated around the 5th century AD (end of the BofM period), but there is no reason that it could not have been formulated already in Olmec times and used throughout later periods.  Of course, deerskin could also have been used -- the Aztecs were known to use it as well as amate.

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

3. ..............................................  Why do you think Alma still felt like a wanderer in a strange land after being in the Americas for almost 500 years?

Although you will want to consider other biblical parallels in which "strange, stranger" is used, Moses' self-description in Exodus 2:22 is worth considering:  "I have been a stranger in a strange land," meaning "an alien residing in a foreign land" (Midian), and accounting for the etymology of his son's name, Gershom "A-Sojourner-There."  It is certainly historically true that the Nephites, Lamanites, and Mulekites were aliens, and not an authentic part of the original Amerind landscape, but Alma may simply be referring to his work within the borderlands of Ammonihah -- which was hard by the Lamanite wilderness and which had become alienated from the remainder of Nephite lands.

 

[Benjamin Seeker]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 3. When Alma was speaking with Antionah and his followers, he said

 Why do you think Alma still felt like a wanderer in a strange land after being in the Americas for almost 500 years?

The most pertinent biblical parallel is Hebrews 11:9.

Quote

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Sojourn means to stay someplace temporarily, which temporary aspect is also communicated by the verb wander. Both verses call a promised land "strange." In this light, Alma's comments can be seen as a version of the "strange" promise land theme. For Alma, it's their separation from the original promised land that makes it strange. This is made clear in Alma 26:36-37:

Quote

36 Now if this is boasting, even so will I boast; for this is my life and my light, my joy and my salvation, and my redemption from everlasting wo. Yea, blessed is the name of my God, who has been mindful of this people, who are a branch of the tree of Israel, and has been lost from its body in a strange land; yea, I say, blessed be the name of my God, who has been mindful of us, wanderers in a strange land.

37 Now my brethren, we see that God is mindful of every people, whatsoever land they may be in; yea, he numbereth his people, and his bowels of mercy are over all the earth. Now this is my joy, and my great thanksgiving; yea, and I will give thanks unto my God forever. Amen.

 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

A type of thistle pervades Mesoamerica, from Mexico to Guatemala, and beyond: Cirsium mexicanum.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/pontus_aratoun/5594930379/ .

Mike Coe says that "Maya paper was more durable and a better writing surface than papyrus."  The Maya called that bark paper huun, and Coe posits that it was formulated around the 5th century AD (end of the BofM period), but there is no reason that it could not have been formulated already in Olmec times and used throughout later periods.  Of course, deerskin could also have been used -- the Aztecs were known to use it as well as amate.

Although you will want to consider other biblical parallels in which "strange, stranger" is used, Moses' self-description in Exodus 2:22 is worth considering:  "I have been a stranger in a strange land," meaning "an alien residing in a foreign land" (Midian), and accounting for the etymology of his son's name, Gershom "A-Sojourner-There."  It is certainly historically true that the Nephites, Lamanites, and Mulekites were aliens, and not an authentic part of the original Amerind landscape, but Alma may simply be referring to his work within the borderlands of Ammonihah -- which was hard by the Lamanite wilderness and which had become alienated from the remainder of Nephite lands.

 

1. Thanks for the thistle comment. It seems to be ubiquitous - fitting in even with the Mesoamerican setting.

2. I think this is the only reference to the Nephites writing on burnable (and easily portable) records. Thanks for the source.

3. I know of the Moses quote. Tevye attributed it to Abraham. Nevertheless, they had been in the New World for 500 years, not 40, and they viewed it as their promised land. I was leaning in the direction that they felt they were indeed just a pocket of Lehites in the big apron of the Americas. I see the Lehite world as relatively small in population and territory. 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

56 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

The most pertinent biblical parallel is Hebrews 11:9.

Sojourn means to stay someplace temporarily, which temporary aspect is also communicated by the verb wander. Both verses call a promised land "strange." In this light, Alma's comments can be seen as a version of the "strange" promise land theme. For Alma, it's their separation from the original promised land that makes it strange. This is made clear in Alma 26:36-37:

 

Thanks. A sojourner is indeed a temporary resident. The Nephites had been in the New World for 500 years and considered it their own promised land. Certainly they were a branch broken from the tree, but it was home. Do you think he is pining for the Old Country? Not many Lehites after Laman and Lemuel expressed a desire to go back.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

The last question...same reason as why Jews spoke of "next year in Jerusalem" for so many centuries:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'Shana_Haba'ah

As Abraham said, "I am a stranger in a strange land."   Do you think they were itching to take the next canoe back to Jerusalem?

Edited November 29, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Google says Yes.

Since we have no further information, maybe we should take for granted that they were flammable (or that the fire was really, really hot).

Glenn

Really really really hot!

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Amate paper dates back at least to 75 CE:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amate

Family or smaller community records would unlikely be metallic, there might be s number of metallic records among the government, religious organization, or very wealthy, but the scripture sounds more like on a family or local religious community level which unlikely to have the wealth or heritage of metal records.

Metal would have been valuable as well and not likely just tossed into a big pit with everything else that would have rendered it difficult to purify.

So most likely organic IMO.

So it looks like they copied parts of the brass plates onto something like amate, bark, or animal skins. That would certainly be easier than having everyone pack around their own copy of the plates. Can you imagine toting around a quad made from gold plates? I've wondered how the various units of Nephites and Lamanites had access to the scriptures. This would explain it.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Marmonboy said:

Having read the above article on amate, it sounds to me exactly like the sort of thing copies of the scriptures would be made on.

Which would explain how the Nephite prophets and priests had access to scriptures away from the plates which were kept in secured locations.

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

As Abraham said, "I am a stranger in a strange land."   Do you think they were itching to take the next canoe back to Jerusalem?

Could be just a traditional saying.

[carbon dioxide]

My biggest Book of Mormon curiosity is why to the Lord forbid us from knowing the names of the 3 Nephites?  What sort of harm could it have caused if we were told their names?

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

.................................................

2. I think this is the only reference to the Nephites writing on burnable (and easily portable) records. Thanks for the source.

........................................................

There are other references, such as I Nephi 5:19 and Jacob 4:2.  Metal records are always quite rare and archival in nature.  Nearly all copying of Holy Scriptures in the past was on perishable materials (papyrus, vellum, and the like).

[Benjamin Seeker]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks. A sojourner is indeed a temporary resident. The Nephites had been in the New World for 500 years and considered it their own promised land. Certainly they were a branch broken from the tree, but it was home. Do you think he is pining for the Old Country? Not many Lehites after Laman and Lemuel expressed a desire to go back.

I think the answer is implied by Hebrews. It's says that Abraham sought for a city whose maker is God. This implies that his wandering status is because his true resting place is with God.

Hebrews itself is likely an allusion to the Exodus scripture which Robert cited. There the Israelites are alien in a physical sense. Hebrews seems to adopt the idea for a spiritual metaphor.

Alma can be interpreted fruitfully along the same lines. They are a branch of Israel "lost from its body" that will, in the latter days, be gathered together.

[Brant Gardner]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

2. I think this is the only reference to the Nephites writing on burnable (and easily portable) records. Thanks for the source.

I've been working on the way that Mormon's text was constructed, and one of the things falling out of that is that Alma chapters 5-42 (if I remember) are from a source that was not the large plates. Those were official records, and although they were in Alma's possession, Mormon indicates that these chapters come from the "record of Alma." There is no need to say that if they are on the formal book of Alma plates. The content of that record also differs from the typical large plate information.

It really appears that as Alma traveled, he kept a personal record. That would have needed to be more portable that plates. Thus, by implication, the story of the burning of the records was probably recorded on a perishable, portable medium.

[snowflake]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

So it looks like they copied parts of the brass plates onto something like amate, bark, or animal skins. That would certainly be easier than having everyone pack around their own copy of the plates. Can you imagine toting around a quad made from gold plates? I've wondered how the various units of Nephites and Lamanites had access to the scriptures. This would explain it.

Are there any existing reminants of these amatie, bark, animal skins or plates that support the BOM text? We have literally tens of thousands of manuscripts supporting the Old and NT in many different languages, seems odd that we have nothing to support the BOM text itself. Or is there something I haven't heard about?  

[Marmonboy]

Unfortunately the Spanish conquerers burned thousands of codices, thinking them pagan. Most of the surviving ones postdate the Conquest. Who knows what they destroyed.

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

Could be just a traditional saying.

It's a line from Fiddler on the Roof. Tevye always messes up his scripture quotes. 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

I've been working on the way that Mormon's text was constructed, and one of the things falling out of that is that Alma chapters 5-42 (if I remember) are from a source that was not the large plates. Those were official records, and although they were in Alma's possession, Mormon indicates that these chapters come from the "record of Alma." There is no need to say that if they are on the formal book of Alma plates. The content of that record also differs from the typical large plate information.

It really appears that as Alma traveled, he kept a personal record. That would have needed to be more portable that plates. Thus, by implication, the story of the burning of the records was probably recorded on a perishable, portable medium.

Very interesting. Thank you so much for sharing your research.

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There are other references, such as I Nephi 5:19 and Jacob 4:2.  Metal records are always quite rare and archival in nature.  Nearly all copying of Holy Scriptures in the past was on perishable materials (papyrus, vellum, and the like).

Thanks. I had forgotten about Jacob 4:2. It's nice to have you around!