Does DN editors need to be reigned in?

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

You need to quit making definitive statements about what other people "know".  You can only speak for yourself.  

And, everything you said above about Trump  can be said for Clinton too.  There were really no good choices if we're purely going on things they've done in their lives. I think one had to vote by where they stood on issues.  They are both corrupt and dishonest, IMO.

False Equivalency.

[JulieM]

9 minutes ago, maklelan said:

They have both repeatedly and vehemently condemned any and all violence from both sides of the isle. 

Since the recent riots and violence began?  (That is what we are discussing here.)

CFR please

ETA:

Unless it was today, nothing "repeatedly and vehemently" yet from Obama:

http://www.mrctv.org/blog/radio-silence-obama-fails-condemn-violent-trump-riots

Edited November 12, 2016 by JulieM

[Sleeper Cell]

1 hour ago, maklelan said:

There were no good choices, but Donald Trump was demonstrably and unquestionably the worst choice by far. Go read those links I put on the previous page that show school children and university students being bullied and beaten, and white supremacist slogans and chants becoming common because a large part of Trump's support came from white nationalists who now see his victory as a mandate. People are suffering violence right now because Trump's victory made them feel racism and xenophobia are now ok. The more you try to justify voting for Donald Trump and avoid engaging the fact that he has demonstrably catalyzed abuse and violence that is literally being perpetrated in his name, the more you tolerate and permit it. Imagine being afraid to leave your home and go into public because you thought someone might recognize your religious garments and tear them off of you and scream at you that you're not wanted. Hard to imagine, isn't it? But IT IS HAPPENING as we speak. Muslim women around the country fear for their safety and are beginning to not wear their religious garments because of that fear. Is that really the America you want to defend right now? You really want to say Clinton would have been just as bad, so this is permissible? I want an honest and direct answer from you. Is this America ok?

“A large part of Trump’s support came from white nationalists …?”  Don’t you see that you are doing essentially the same sort of thing you accuse Trump of doing -- marginalizing and/or demonizing “the other?”  I believe that the overwhelming majority of Trump supporters -- like the overwhelming majority of Clinton supporters -- are basically decent people.  BTW,  CFR that a “large part” of Trump’s support came from “white nationalists.”   

IMO,  there are plenty of legitimate criticisms one can make of Trump.  But going “over the top” like you are doing has a tendency to weaken the impact of the legitimate concerns.  

Not that it matters, but I have been a “never-Trumper” from the beginning -- I voted 3rd party (in CA) for the first time in my life.  But I can see why someone might reasonably believe that Trump may be the lesser of two evils, just as I can appreciate why someone else may believe the opposite.  
 

[JulieM]

7 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

False Equivalency.

No.  Just the truth.  IMO, both candidates are despicable and have been dishonest.  What is false about that?  We ended up voting on platforms rather that on the character of the candidates.

Edited November 12, 2016 by JulieM

[JulieM]

At least Trump's advisor has spoken out (I agree that Clinton, Obama and Trump should all three be asking for the violence to stop):

https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/11/11/trump-adviser-urges-obama-clinton-to-speak-out-on-protests.amp.html?client=safari

[Sleeper Cell]

20 minutes ago, maklelan said:

The SPLC is investigating over 200 reports. We'll see what's fake and what's not, but I find it absolutely horrific and grotesque that your response is not to show concern for the safety of children and adults who fear for their lives and who are being harassed and attacked, but to bark that libs aren't going to get their way. You are no Christian. 

[emphasis added]

So it has come to this.   Sad.

 

[thesometimesaint]

The character of the candidate is the only platform that counts. The rest is so much paper. Do politicians lie. You bet Ya. Survey after survey showed that Clinton lied about 26% of the time. Truthful Sanders about 28% of the time, and Trump a mind-blowing 71% of the time. The man confessed to grabbing women by their most private part, because he was rich and famous. That is the least of his obscene idea's.

[thesometimesaint]

11 minutes ago, JulieM said:

At least Trump's advisor has spoken out (I agree that Clinton, Obama and Trump should all three be asking for the violence to stop):

https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/11/11/trump-adviser-urges-obama-clinton-to-speak-out-on-protests.amp.html?client=safari

Is there something that the First Amendment that is misunderstood? I have no tolerance for violence of any type. However peaceful protest is protected by our Constitution.

[JulieM]

9 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

The character of the candidate is the only platform that counts. The rest is so much paper. Do politicians lie. You bet Ya. Survey after survey showed that Clinton lied about 26% of the time. Truthful Sanders about 28% of the time, and Trump a mind-blowing 71% of the time. The man confessed to grabbing women by their most private part, because he was rich and famous. That is the least of his obscene idea's.

And Clinton defended her husband's much worse behavior and then demeaned the women who were his victims.  

So, we're left with dispicable and immoral behavior from both.  One of them was going to be president.  Most ended up voting for their platforms.  That's just what we were stuck with, unfortunately.

Edited November 12, 2016 by JulieM

[JulieM]

2 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Is there something that the First Amendment that is misunderstood? I have no tolerance for violence of any type. However peaceful protest is protected by our Constitution.

Some of these protests have turned violent and property is being damaged, laws are being broken. people have been pulled out of their cars and beaten.  That is not "peaceful protest". 

Edited November 12, 2016 by JulieM

[thesometimesaint]

3 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Some of these protests have turned violent and property is being damaged, laws are being broken. people have been pulled out of their cars and beaten.  That is not "peaceful protest". 

SEE http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/11/21-heartbreaking-things-happened-people-color-one-day-trumps-win/

[JulieM]

7 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

SEE http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/11/21-heartbreaking-things-happened-people-color-one-day-trumps-win/

None of that's right to do, but that doesn't justify the violence here:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/news/national/teens-beats-chicago-man-street-voting-donald-trump-article-1.2867997?client=safari

I'm sure none of the candidates wanted any of these things to take place.  It's very sad that some people are reacting like this 

Edited November 12, 2016 by JulieM

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

I'm not sure why it is so unbelievable that the leaders of the church would not want church members supporting an immoral, venal candidate like Trump who ran a campaign in direct opposition to church leaders' beliefs about religious freedom.

They didn't denounce Bill Clinton for having sex with a White House intern. And they disagreed with Obama on marriage redefinition. It is routine for them to remain silent about politicians' fitness to govern. 

[Raingirl]

1 hour ago, maklelan said:

Absolutely. He called for it, he has not condemned any of it, and it is happening literally in his name. And now instead of you condemning it, you're trying to just shift blame.

Then why hasn't he condemned any of it?

What an unimaginably hateful and grotesquely ignorant thing to say. You really do not care that CHILDREN are being targeted, harassed, and attacked because of the color of their skin, and by others who insist their president makes it ok? 

I don't usually engage in political discussions, but good grief, the lies here cannot go unchallenged.

You hate Trump.  We get that.  You blithely ignore the decades-long corruption, immorality, dishonesty, misogyny, etc. of the Clintons.  We get that, too.  And nothing anyone says - no ounce of truth - will ever get through to you, because it doesn't fit your chosen world-view.  

Trump, Clinton, and Obama have all prevailed upon the thugs to stop the riots.  Yes, I said thugs and I said riots.  I work in downtown Portland and my life - along with the lives of thousands of others - have been put in danger night after night this week.  Aside from the childish arrogance of taking over the streets and preventing hard-working citizens (most of whom actually voted for Clinton) from going home.  They took over streets.  Bus and Max stops had to be shut down, because it was too dangerous, leaving people stranded with no way to get home.  Windshields were smashed on the cars of innocent people, just trying to get home.  Arson, assaults, vandalism, destruction  of property - name the crime and it happened.  Night after night after night.

This is Donald Trump's fault?  Oh hell, no.  As with so much of society today, the blame is always placed on someone other than the actual person responsible.  The fault lies with each individual who took to the streets with hate in their hearts. Each of us is responsible for our actions. 

You talk about blame-shifting.  The hypocrisy is staggering.

Do you only care about those who are (supposedly) suffering who align with your world-view?  I guess you're okay with Trump voters getting assaulted, having their property destroyed, being threatened and traumatized by those poor, innocent, "tolerant", "inclusive" thugs roaming the streets here because - at least as far as you're concerned - they must be Democrats who voted for the "right" candidate.  If what I have seen this past week reflects Democratic values and reflect the kind of America that Democrats and people like you hope to see.....tell me again...why should I vote for your candidate?

I've lived in Portland long enough to realize that a fair number of the "protestors" here don't actually give a rat's *** about the Presidential election.  I'm sure you're going to have an apoplectic response, but the reality is that there is a not-insignificant number of people here in Portland who will "protest" pretty much anything at anytime, even when they haven't the first clue what the protest is about!  In addition to the other damage and chaos they cause, they make it difficult for those who are having legitimate, peaceful protest to be taken seriously.

I'm old enough to remember when people acted like mature adults and could accept the fact that their candidate lost this time around.  That's how elections work!  We have the opportunity to cast our vote, and then one guy loses and the other guy wins.  This is not new.  We've been doing this for a while.

But I guess it's okay with you that we now act like spoiled brats and riot in the streets when we don't get our way.  It's okay that emergency personnel were delayed - or had to abandon altogether - REAL victims who were waiting for help these past nights.  I guess it's okay with you that businesses and individuals alike are having to find the money to pay for the damage caused by these selfish thugs.  I guess it's okay that someone who was just trying to get home to their family after a hard day's work, has to be without transportation while they try to pull together the money to fix the windows on their car.  This serves some sort of higher moral cause for you?

You're incensed at the (supposed) incidents you posted because they serve your agenda of hate.  What about the rest of us? Those of us who are harassed and intimidated in the workplace if it's know we voted for Trump? Those who are threatened with the loss of their job (Grub-Hub) because they exercised their right to vote for the candidate of their choice? Those of us who are labeled racist because we voted for Trump?  Those of us who are labeled anti-woman because we voted for Trump?  Because it's only hateful reasons like that, that would cause a person to vote for Trump, right?  It couldn't be because of legitimate issues or things like Benghazi, pay-for play, etc,  right?   Oh no, every Trump-voter has to be racist, homophobic, and every other terrible label you can think of, right?

Tell me again...who is promoting hate?

I'm scared.  I was scared every night I left work this week.  Scared I wouldn't make it home in one piece. Scared to have to go back to work on Monday. Scared for all of the first responders.  Scared for everyone just trying to get home, or get to their jobs.  Scared for the pregnant woman just trying to get to the hospital.  Scared because of everything I saw and heard these last few nights in the city I am embarrassed to live in.Scared because people want to do me harm just because of who I voted for.

The reasons for my fear are not the fault of Donald Trump.  The reasons for my fear lie at the feet of those who would use him as an excuse for the hatred and bigotry that lies within their own hearts.

[JulieM]

14 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

I don't usually engage in political discussions, but good grief, the lies here cannot go unchallenged.

You hate Trump.  We get that.  You blithely ignore the decades-long corruption, immorality, dishonesty, misogyny, etc. of the Clintons.  We get that, too.  And nothing anyone says - no ounce of truth - will ever get through to you, because it doesn't fit your chosen world-view.  

Trump, Clinton, and Obama have all prevailed upon the thugs to stop the riots.  Yes, I said thugs and I said riots.  I work in downtown Portland and my life - along with the lives of thousands of others - have been put in danger night after night this week.  Aside from the childish arrogance of taking over the streets and preventing hard-working citizens (most of whom actually voted for Clinton) from going home.  They took over streets.  Bus and Max stops had to be shut down, because it was too dangerous, leaving people stranded with no way to get home.  Windshields were smashed on the cars of innocent people, just trying to get home.  Arson, assaults, vandalism, destruction  of property - name the crime and it happened.  Night after night after night.

This is Donald Trump's fault?  Oh hell, no.  As with so much of society today, the blame is always placed on someone other than the actual person responsible.  The fault lies with each individual who took to the streets with hate in their hearts. Each of us is responsible for our actions. 

You talk about blame-shifting.  The hypocrisy is staggering.

Do you only care about those who are (supposedly) suffering who align with your world-view?  I guess you're okay with Trump voters getting assaulted, having their property destroyed, being threatened and traumatized by those poor, innocent, "tolerant", "inclusive" thugs roaming the streets here because - at least as far as you're concerned - they must be Democrats who voted for the "right" candidate.  If what I have seen this past week reflects Democratic values and reflect the kind of America that Democrats and people like you hope to see.....tell me again...why should I vote for your candidate?

I've lived in Portland long enough to realize that a fair number of the "protestors" here don't actually give a rat's *** about the Presidential election.  I'm sure you're going to have an apoplectic response, but the reality is that there is a not-insignificant number of people here in Portland who will "protest" pretty much anything at anytime, even when they haven't the first clue what the protest is about!  In addition to the other damage and chaos they cause, they make it difficult for those who are having legitimate, peaceful protest to be taken seriously.

I'm old enough to remember when people acted like mature adults and could accept the fact that their candidate lost this time around.  That's how elections work!  We have the opportunity to cast our vote, and then one guy loses and the other guy wins.  This is not new.  We've been doing this for a while.

But I guess it's okay with you that we now act like spoiled brats and riot in the streets when we don't get our way.  It's okay that emergency personnel were delayed - or had to abandon altogether - REAL victims who were waiting for help these past nights.  I guess it's okay with you that businesses and individuals alike are having to find the money to pay for the damage caused by these selfish thugs.  I guess it's okay that someone who was just trying to get home to their family after a hard day's work, has to be without transportation while they try to pull together the money to fix the windows on their car.  This serves some sort of higher moral cause for you?

You're incensed at the (supposed) incidents you posted because they serve your agenda of hate.  What about the rest of us? Those of us who are harassed and intimidated in the workplace if it's know we voted for Trump? Those who are threatened with the loss of their job (Grub-Hub) because they exercised their right to vote for the candidate of their choice? Those of us who are labeled racist because we voted for Trump?  Those of us who are labeled anti-woman because we voted for Trump?  Because it's only hateful reasons like that, that would cause a person to vote for Trump, right?  It couldn't be because of legitimate issues or things like Benghazi, pay-for play, etc,  right?   Oh no, every Trump-voter has to be racist, homophobic, and every other terrible label you can think of, right?

Tell me again...who is promoting hate?

I'm scared.  I was scared every night I left work this week.  Scared I wouldn't make it home in one piece. Scared to have to go back to work on Monday. Scared for all of the first responders.  Scared for everyone just trying to get home, or get to their jobs.  Scared for the pregnant woman just trying to get to the hospital.  Scared because of everything I saw and heard these last few nights in the city I am embarrassed to live in.Scared because people want to do me harm just because of who I voted for.

The reasons for my fear are not the fault of Donald Trump.  The reasons for my fear lie at the feet of those who would use him as an excuse for the hatred and bigotry that lies within their own hearts.

Wow.  Such a great post that expresses a real look at what is actually taking place here. 

What is interesting is that a local reporter where I live went out into the streets of a nearby large city where what you describe has been taking place.

And...guess what?

The majority of the protestors he interviewed admitted they didn't even vote.

Edited November 12, 2016 by JulieM

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Raingirl said:

I don't usually engage in political discussions, but good grief, the lies here cannot go unchallenged.

You hate Trump.  We get that.  You blithely ignore the decades-long corruption, immorality, dishonesty, misogyny, etc. of the Clintons.  We get that, too.  And nothing anyone says - no ounce of truth - will ever get through to you, because it doesn't fit your chosen world-view.  

Trump, Clinton, and Obama have all prevailed upon the thugs to stop the riots.  Yes, I said thugs and I said riots.  I work in downtown Portland and my life - along with the lives of thousands of others - have been put in danger night after night this week.  Aside from the childish arrogance of taking over the streets and preventing hard-working citizens (most of whom actually voted for Clinton) from going home.  They took over streets.  Bus and Max stops had to be shut down, because it was too dangerous, leaving people stranded with no way to get home.  Windshields were smashed on the cars of innocent people, just trying to get home.  Arson, assaults, vandalism, destruction  of property - name the crime and it happened.  Night after night after night.

This is Donald Trump's fault?  Oh hell, no.  As with so much of society today, the blame is always placed on someone other than the actual person responsible.  The fault lies with each individual who took to the streets with hate in their hearts. Each of us is responsible for our actions. 

You talk about blame-shifting.  The hypocrisy is staggering.

Do you only care about those who are (supposedly) suffering who align with your world-view?  I guess you're okay with Trump voters getting assaulted, having their property destroyed, being threatened and traumatized by those poor, innocent, "tolerant", "inclusive" thugs roaming the streets here because - at least as far as you're concerned - they must be Democrats who voted for the "right" candidate.  If what I have seen this past week reflects Democratic values and reflect the kind of America that Democrats and people like you hope to see.....tell me again...why should I vote for your candidate?

I've lived in Portland long enough to realize that a fair number of the "protestors" here don't actually give a rat's *** about the Presidential election.  I'm sure you're going to have an apoplectic response, but the reality is that there is a not-insignificant number of people here in Portland who will "protest" pretty much anything at anytime, even when they haven't the first clue what the protest is about!  In addition to the other damage and chaos they cause, they make it difficult for those who are having legitimate, peaceful protest to be taken seriously.

I'm old enough to remember when people acted like mature adults and could accept the fact that their candidate lost this time around.  That's how elections work!  We have the opportunity to cast our vote, and then one guy loses and the other guy wins.  This is not new.  We've been doing this for a while.

But I guess it's okay with you that we now act like spoiled brats and riot in the streets when we don't get our way.  It's okay that emergency personnel were delayed - or had to abandon altogether - REAL victims who were waiting for help these past nights.  I guess it's okay with you that businesses and individuals alike are having to find the money to pay for the damage caused by these selfish thugs.  I guess it's okay that someone who was just trying to get home to their family after a hard day's work, has to be without transportation while they try to pull together the money to fix the windows on their car.  This serves some sort of higher moral cause for you?

You're incensed at the (supposed) incidents you posted because they serve your agenda of hate.  What about the rest of us? Those of us who are harassed and intimidated in the workplace if it's know we voted for Trump? Those who are threatened with the loss of their job (Grub-Hub) because they exercised their right to vote for the candidate of their choice? Those of us who are labeled racist because we voted for Trump?  Those of us who are labeled anti-woman because we voted for Trump?  Because it's only hateful reasons like that, that would cause a person to vote for Trump, right?  It couldn't be because of legitimate issues or things like Benghazi, pay-for play, etc,  right?   Oh no, every Trump-voter has to be racist, homophobic, and every other terrible label you can think of, right?

Tell me again...who is promoting hate?

I'm scared.  I was scared every night I left work this week.  Scared I wouldn't make it home in one piece. Scared to have to go back to work on Monday. Scared for all of the first responders.  Scared for everyone just trying to get home, or get to their jobs.  Scared for the pregnant woman just trying to get to the hospital.  Scared because of everything I saw and heard these last few nights in the city I am embarrassed to live in.Scared because people want to do me harm just because of who I voted for.

The reasons for my fear are not the fault of Donald Trump.  The reasons for my fear lie at the feet of those who would use him as an excuse for the hatred and bigotry that lies within their own hearts.

This is very powerful. Thank you for sharing.

[Gray]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

They didn't denounce Bill Clinton for having sex with a White House intern. And they disagreed with Obama on marriage redefinition. It is routine for them to remain silent about politicians' fitness to govern. 

Yes, I agree that's the routine. I just find it plausible that none of the 15 would support him.

[waveslider]

19 minutes ago, Gray said:

Yes, I agree that's the routine. I just find it plausible that none of the 15 would support him.

Hillary straight up belongs in prison. Trump with all his flaws is no where near as evil as the Clintons are. It is a crying shame that the media is sowing so much deception and that the corruption of those in power have continually turned their heads the other way as they have allowed a free pass for committing high treason, and are continually covering for one of the most well known sexual predators in the world. The views posted earlier about how Trump is supposedly inciting all the rioting only goes to show how powerful the deception perpetrated by the media can be in brainwashing the public into believing a false narrative. Those who blindly follow the media are only falling into the hands of those who would try and usurp the democratic process of the country, as well as taking away personal freedoms from their fellow Americans, as they incite ever more violence. Imagine what will happen if the violence escalates even more, and Obama decides to put the U.S. under martial law. If that were to happen, Obama would get his wish for having a third term because you can't change presidency over during martial law, even if we already elected on democratically.

It is views like this that show me how entirely out of touch many of us are to reality.

 

 

"The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued the following statement Wednesday:

We congratulate President-elect Donald Trump on his election as president of the United States.

We invite Americans everywhere, whatever their political persuasion, to join us in praying for the president-elect, for his new administration and for elected leaders across the nation and the world. Praying for those in public office is a long tradition among Latter-day Saints. The men and women who lead our nations and communities need our prayers as they govern in these difficult and turbulent times.

We also commend Secretary Hillary Clinton and all those who engaged in the election process at a national or local level. Their participation in our democratic process, by its nature, demands much of those who offer themselves for public service. May our local and national leaders reflect the best in wisdom and judgment as they fulfill the great trust afforded to them by the American people."

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/first-presidency-quorum-of-twelve-congratulate-u-s-president-elect