Ouagadougou Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 Hello everyone! I recently read the church’s “Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo” essay in the link below and was astonished by the following statement: "Although the Lord commanded the adoption—and later the cessation—of plural marriage in the latter days, He did not give exact instructions on how to obey the commandment."https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng How can God “not give exact instructions on how to obey” a commandment, especially one that was supposedly as important as polygamy (The Celestial Order of Marriage)? Are we to believe that God can send an angel with a flaming sword to command Joseph Smith to practice polygamy – but in turn – he (God) doesn’t really give clear instructions on how this purportedly extremely critical commandment should be practiced? I’m sure the church essays have been carefully reviewed by the top leadership in the church, so I would be hesitant to say that this statement is just an oversight on their part. In retrospect, the struggles, problems, and overall turmoil associated with the adoption of polygamy are ultimately God’s blunder? This statement in this essay goes against everything I was taught and understand about God being omnipotent and omniscient. Further, are we to believe that over 150 years ago God couldn’t give exact instructions on how to obey an extremely important commandment – but today – he can give us exact instructions on the following? Age we should start dating (16) How many earrings we should have What drinks we can and cannot consume What type of clothing is appropriate Recommended movies we should watch And the list goes on and on Or, is it just presentism—and we don’t understand how commandments were given by God at that time? Did God not give clear commandments over 150 years ago just to test the saints’ faith? In my opinion, why not just come clean and admit that polygamy was a fiasco and mistake (instead of blaming it on God)? Ultimately, isn’t Joseph Smith to blame if he was the prophet at the time polygamy was first adopted? I personally can’t accept this statement that God somehow “did not give exact instructions on how to obey this commandment.” Am I the only one who read this essay and was left absolutely bewildered? 2
Popular Post Gray Posted November 2, 2016 Popular Post Posted November 2, 2016 This simple principle - God does not give instructions at all - accounts for and solves all of the confusion on this issue. 8
rpn Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 Because He teaches us correct principles so we can choose to submit our will to Him according to our agency? (IRL, it isn't often the commandment that He likely deems important, but our intent and actions in submitting our will to His.) There have been times when He did command specific things, for instance the specific instructions in Leviticus. But that was for a specific purpose. 1
Ouagadougou Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 Around 1/3 of Joseph Smith's wives were already legally married to other men. This is a correct principle? 3
Ouagadougou Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Gray said: This simple principle - God does not give instructions at all - accounts for and solves all of the confusion on this issue. So you believe polygamy was something Joseph Smith thought up (not from God)? Edited November 2, 2016 by Ouagadougou
Stormin' Mormon Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 18 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Age we should start dating (16) How many earrings we should have What drinks we can and cannot consume What type of clothing is appropriate Recommended movies we should watch And the list goes on and on None of your examples are commandments, but rather counsel and advice on how we apply general commandments to specific modern-day contexts. The one (possible) exception is what drinks we can and cannot consume, but given the amount of disagreement between faithful Mormons on this topic, I think its safe to say that God has not given us specific instructions on how to obey the Word of Wisdom. 2
ALarson Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 4 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: So you believe polygamy was something Joseph Smith thought up (not from God)? I definitely believe that it did not come from God, but from man (and most especially the manner in which it was practiced by many early church leaders/members was not from God). And there are instructions on how to live it in D&C 132, so the sentence you quote from the essay is odd. It does give them wiggle room though and that's most likely why it's in there (since many didn't follow the instructions given). 2
Ouagadougou Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 1 minute ago, Stormin' Mormon said: None of your examples are commandments, but rather counsel and advice on how we apply general commandments to specific modern-day contexts. The one (possible) exception is what drinks we can and cannot consume, but given the amount of disagreement between faithful Mormons on this topic, I think its safe to say that God has not given us specific instructions on how to obey the Word of Wisdom. Ok...I never called them commandments but I agree. So...God can give very detailed instructions on non-commandments; however, he can't fully convey how polygamy should be practiced? Keep in mind that Polygamy (e.g. The Celestial Order of Marriage) was regarded as an important commandment and affected the lives of numerous saints, so I'm baffled as to how God couldn't give exact instructions.
JAHS Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 A good LDS scripture for this issue is the following: "For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward." (D&C 58: 26) God wants us to use our own brains and our own spirit of discernment to learn how to live the commandments. And if exactness is important to Him for a certain commandment he will tell us through His prophets how to live it. 1
JLHPROF Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 12 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Around 1/3 of Joseph Smith's wives were already legally married to other men. This is a correct principle? But none of them were sealed (married by priesthood authority from God) to other men. There are some historical accounts stating that Joseph didn't recognize civil marriages as binding before God at that time.
Ouagadougou Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 2 minutes ago, ALarson said: I definitely believe that it did not come from God, but from man (and most especially the manner in which it was practiced by many early church leaders/members was not from God). And there are instructions on how to live it in D&C 132, so the sentence you quote from the essay is odd. It does give them wiggle room though and that's most likely why it's in there (since many didn't follow the instructions given). I am of the same belief that it's not from God at all. However, spiritual polygamy is still practiced today. For example, I have an aunt who was recently sealed to her husband in the temple as his second wife (his first wife passed away). I think this statement in the essay might be referring to polygamy before Joseph Smith received the D&C 132 revelation, correct? Because he was practicing polygamy years before he received received what is in 132.
Ouagadougou Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: But none of them were sealed (married by priesthood authority from God) to other men. There are some historical accounts stating that Joseph didn't recognize civil marriages as binding before God at that time. But some of the men were members of the church, right? So they could have been sealed to their husbands...but Joseph Smith had a higher priesthood power?
Ouagadougou Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 4 minutes ago, JAHS said: A good LDS scripture for this issue is the following: "For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward." (D&C 58: 26) God wants us to use our own brains and our own spirit of discernment to learn how to live the commandments. And if exactness is important to Him for a certain commandment he will tell us through His prophets how to live it. In my opinion, polygamy was a fiasco and terrible for many different people involved, so there wasn't much spirit of discernment. Further, God can command armed angels to have Joseph Smith practice polygamy, but he didn't want to exercise exactness in terms of how polygamy should be practiced? 1
rpn Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 22 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Around 1/3 of Joseph Smith's wives were already legally married to other men. This is a correct principle? We know that Wilford Woodruff was inspired in the late 1880's that they hadn't been doing the sealings correctly ---- it was he who received the revelation that people should be sealed to their own bio ancesters, not to the most righteous person they knew as had been common practice in dynastic sealings.
JLHPROF Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 10 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: But some of the men were members of the church, right? So they could have been sealed to their husbands...but Joseph Smith had a higher priesthood power? Probably. Their choice. Just as in Brigham's teaching on divorce you allude to.
JLHPROF Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 5 minutes ago, rpn said: We know that Wilford Woodruff was inspired in the late 1880's that they hadn't been doing the sealings correctly ---- it was he who received the revelation that people should be sealed to their own bio ancesters, not to the most righteous person they knew as had been common practice in dynastic sealings. That was about parent/child sealings. No change was made to marital sealings at that time.
JLHPROF Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 7 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: In my opinion, polygamy was a fiasco and terrible for many different people involved, so there wasn't much spirit of discernment. Further, God can command armed angels to have Joseph Smith practice polygamy, but he didn't want to exercise exactness in terms of how polygamy should be practiced? He exercised exactness in the spiritually determined items. Logistics he left up to the participants, just as he often does. He commands us to build temples. He uses exactness in the required ordinances. He leaves it up to the leaders to arrange the construction permits.
Ouagadougou Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 Was Wilford Woodruff also inspired to marry a 15 year old teenage girl when he was 46 years of age? That means he was 31 years old when she was born. People can claim "presentism;" however, in my opinion, there is nothing inspiring or holy about that... 3
Ouagadougou Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 Just now, JLHPROF said: He exercised exactness in the spiritually determined items. Logistics he left up to the participants, just as he often does. He commands us to build temples. He uses exactness in the required ordinances. He leaves it up to the leaders to arrange the construction permits. Marrying other women who already have been married under the law is more than "logistics" in my opinion. What if polygamy didn't come from God and it was just something Joseph Smith and other early leaders wanted?
Ouagadougou Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Probably. Their choice. Just as in Brigham's teaching on divorce you allude to. Their choice? Isn't that called infidelity (if already married)?
Ouagadougou Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 13 minutes ago, rpn said: We know that Wilford Woodruff was inspired in the late 1880's that they hadn't been doing the sealings correctly ---- it was he who received the revelation that people should be sealed to their own bio ancesters, not to the most righteous person they knew as had been common practice in dynastic sealings. Was Wilford Woodruff also inspired to marry a 15 year old teenage girl when he was 46 years of age? That means he was 31 years old when she was born. People can claim "presentism;" however, in my opinion, there is nothing inspiring or holy about that...
Jeanne Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Around 1/3 of Joseph Smith's wives were already legally married to other men. This is a correct principle? Good question. How and where does God draw a line from one generation to the next...with obsolete former prophecies and existing policies we are still confused on many things. My question is...in the restoration of said gospel..in translation of plates, in instruction on polygamy/marriage, and even in priesthood to ALL men, the confusion still exists. For me, the essays have only created more questions and for heavens sakes...and for ours...why wouldn't God get this to us right in the first place. One cannot gain admittance to a Celestial Kingdom without following commandments. Some of those commandments have been disavowed and/or non existent. Where is the truth? Edited November 2, 2016 by Jeanne 2
JLHPROF Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 1 minute ago, Ouagadougou said: Was Wilford Woodruff also inspired to marry a 15 year old teenage girl when he was 46 years of age? That means he was 31 years old when she was born. People can claim "presentism;" however, in my opinion, there is nothing inspiring or holy about that... https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/30/marriage-of-mary-to-joseph-the-carpenter/ Not really a reliable source. But most scholars agree that Mary was 14 when she had Christ. And that the father of her child (either Joseph or God) was much older.
Ouagadougou Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/30/marriage-of-mary-to-joseph-the-carpenter/ Not really a reliable source. But most scholars agree that Mary was 14 when she had Christ. And that the father of her child (either Joseph or God) was much older. Spiritual polygamy is still practiced, right? I can't remember the names, but I think two apostles are sealed to more than one woman. Do you believe God is a polygamist...and that we (those found worthy) will be practicing polygamy in the afterlife?
JLHPROF Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Spiritual polygamy is still practiced, right? I can't remember the names, but I think two apostles are sealed to more than one woman. Do you believe God is a polygamist...and that we (those found worthy) will be practicing polygamy in the afterlife? Yes, yes, and yes (if we desire the blessings attached to the law but not at the expense of agency). Edited November 2, 2016 by JLHPROF
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