How can God not give exact instructions on how to obey a commandment?

[JLHPROF]

13 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

it doesn't specifically say that God commanded or even condones for David to marry these wives. 

" I gave thee"
Seems specifically condoned to me.
 

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, Gray said:

Jesus is reported to have condemned polygamy. 

Since the church's position is that monogamy is the rule and polygamy the exception, that would make sense.

[ALarson]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

" I gave thee"
Seems specifically condoned to me.
 

Not really.  Maybe it was a test.

Are we commanded to accept everything God has given us? 

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

2 Samuel 12:8 "And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things."

Sounds like approval to me.

Wasn't David receiving the inheritance of Saul, the prior leader.  Wives were considered property back then and I believe that this was custom for the new leader to be given the property of the old leader.  Also, it doesn't specifically say that God commanded or even condones for David to marry these wives.  Thats how I read it anyway.  

[JLHPROF]

41 minutes ago, Gray said:

Jesus is reported to have condemned polygamy.

Where? (or CFR).

Kind of hypocritical if he was a polygamist himself as was taught in the early days.

Edited November 3, 2016 by JLHPROF

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Since the church's position is that monogamy is the rule and polygamy the exception, that would make sense.

But Brigham Young taught that Jesus was a polygamist (iirc).

ETA:

(I see that JLHPROF beat me too it...)

Edited November 3, 2016 by ALarson

[hope_for_things]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

" I gave thee"
Seems specifically condoned to me.
 

Gave them as property, not necessarily to marry again.  

[Gray]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Where? (or CFR).

Kind of hypocritical if he was a polygamist himself as was taught in the early days.

Matthew 19:8

Quote

Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

 

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Not really.  Maybe it was a test.

Are we commanded to accept everything God has given us?

Well, as much as you love Brigham Young's teachings, I think he was right when he said:
"they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them."

Joseph Smith agreed with him and taught:
"Blessings offered, but rejected, are no longer blessings, but become like the talent hid in the earth by the wicked and slothful servant; the proffered good returns to the giver; the blessing is bestowed on those who will receive and occupy; for unto him that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundantly, but unto him that hath not or will not receive, shall be taken away that which he hath, or might have had."

 

 

[bluebell]

44 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

You're not thinking big enough here.  What lesson manuals?  The 2016 published ones?  As I mentioned earlier, this concept of an exception clause was not taught by Joseph and early church leaders.  It has developed over time, and it will continue to evolve in the future.  

I don't feel the need to think big enough.  That is the generally accepted interpretation of that verse, and it is the one that is taught by the church.  

Quote

Jacob in the BoM condemns polygamy, that is very clear.  The exception clause is the part that's vague.  Whether God approves of or condemns polygamy is a different question.  The authors of the books in the bible didn't condemn it, but they didn't approve of it either.  ln a culture that practices polygamy as normal then all the unions are blessed, yes.  Does that mean that God approves of this or not?

Yes, it is clear that he condemns the polygamy of David and Solomon and the practice of it by the Nephites, I agree.

Quote

Incestual unions were also blessed, by that same logic, does God approve of these unions as well?

The marrying of relatives is an age-old practice that is not considered incestuous.  If you mean parent/child, perhaps you could give a reference to the specific instance you are referring to where God promised specific spiritual blessings to the union. 

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, Gray said:

Matthew 19:8
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

 

What does divorce have to do with polygamy?

And according to President Young
"President Young said that when a man married a wife, he took her for better or for worse, and he had no right to ill use her, and if she **** in bed and laid in it until noon he must bear it, until he gets power over her to learn her better. A man that would mistreat a woman in order to get her to leave him would find himself in the worlds to come alone. He said he knew of no law to give a man in polygamy a divorce." 
Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 3:1454

[hope_for_things]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The marrying of relatives is an age-old practice that is not considered incestuous.  If you mean parent/child, perhaps you could give a reference to the specific instance you are referring to where God promised specific spiritual blessings to the union. 

Its not that God promised specific spiritual blessings for incest, or polygamy.  Its that these practices were in the bible, and they weren't always directly condemned.  You said this shows that God approves of polygamy, I'm just extending this same logic.  

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Gave them as property, not necessarily to marry again.

So you'd rather think that God gave women to be property than wives?
Your hatred of polygamy is that strong that you would rather read a scripture quoting God to mean that?

[Gray]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

What does divorce have to do with polygamy?

And according to President Young
"President Young said that when a man married a wife, he took her for better or for worse, and he had no right to ill use her, and if she **** in bed and laid in it until noon he must bear it, until he gets power over her to learn her better. A man that would mistreat a woman in order to get her to leave him would find himself in the worlds to come alone. He said he knew of no law to give a man in polygamy a divorce." 
Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 3:1454

Jesus doesn't consider the divorce to be valid, except in the case of infidelity. In other words, if you divorce your wife and marry another, you are now married to two women, in the eyes of God. That constitutes adultery, according to Jesus. 

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, ALarson said:

But Brigham Young taught that Jesus was a polygamist (iirc).

ETA:

(I see that JLHPROF beat me too it...)

That wouldn't really change anything though.  JS was a polygamist.  Jacob wasn't.  Both were following the commandments of God.  Besides that though, if we want to interpret the verse the way that Gray is, it shows that Jesus was completely o.k. with polygamy under specific conditions (fornication, for example).  Even Gray's reading of it supports the idea that polygamy is sometimes condoned by Jesus.

Personally, i think that verse Gray quoted is just another example of how polygamy without express permission by God is just adultery and is a sin.  Jesus is teaching that taking another wife for selfish reasons isn't o.k.  

[JLHPROF]

Just now, Gray said:

Jesus doesn't consider the divorce to be valid, except in the case of infidelity. In other words, if you divorce your wife and marry another, you are now married to two women, in the eyes of God. That constitutes adultery, according to Jesus.

Agreed.
What does that have to do with polygamy?  Marrying a second wife isn't polygamy if you get a divorce from the first.

[Gray]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Agreed.
What does that have to do with polygamy?  Marrying a second wife isn't polygamy if you get a divorce from the first.

But it is polygamy if the divorce is not recognized as valid. So to have two wives is to be an adulterer, according to Jesus (or according to the author of Matthew). 

[ALarson]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Well, as much as you love Brigham Young's teachings, I think he was right when he said:
"they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them."

Now to prove that these wives were "blessed" offerings and not just property being passed on by custom of that time.  No commandment was involved (that we have record of).

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Both were following the commandments of God.

That's where we disagree.  I believe polygamy is a man made practice, not from God.

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Its not that God promised specific spiritual blessings for incest, or polygamy.  Its that these practices were in the bible, and they weren't always directly condemned.  You said this shows that God approves of polygamy, I'm just extending this same logic.  

I'm talking about God specifically blessing the polygamist unions of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob with spiritual blessings.  The house of Israel exists because of polygamy.  Polygamy is how the blessings promised to the house of Israel spread thru the world.  

Incest however, was spoken of twice in the OT (I think, i'm definitely not an expert in any form and maybe there are more examples i'm forgetting).  Once, it was treated neutrally.  The second time (with Reuben and his step mother), Reuben lost his birthright and it was given to Joseph specifically for that reason.

The OT evidence supports that God allowed His prophets to practice polygamy with no condemnation.

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So you'd rather think that God gave women to be property than wives?
Your hatred of polygamy is that strong that you would rather read a scripture quoting God to mean that?

God as portrayed in the OT approves of humans as property. Not a very enlightened portrayal, but it is what it is. 

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Now to prove that these wives were "blessed" offerings and not just property being passed on by custom of that time.  No commandment was involved (that we have record of).

You know that can't be done with the available data.
But these women became his wives.

Are wives blessings from the Lord?  You tell me.

D&C 132:55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundred-fold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

Proverbs 12:4 A virtuous woman is a crown to her husband: but she that maketh ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.
(We have no idea how virtuous these new wives were, but let's assume that they weren't all harlots shall we?)

Proverbs 18:22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the Lord.

[ALarson]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You know that can't be done with the available data.
But these women became his wives.

Are wives blessings from the Lord?  You tell me.

D&C 132:55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundred-fold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

Proverbs 12:4 A virtuous woman is a crown to her husband: but she that maketh ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.
(We have no idea how virtuous these new wives were, but let's assume that they weren't all harlots shall we?)

Proverbs 18:22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the Lord.

You know we've discussed this before and disagree.  I believe there is no record of God ever commanding polygamy (prior to when Joseph claimed this happened with the angel and sword).  The closest thing to it being commanded is for Levirite Law and it wasn't even specifically commanded in order to follow that law (it may have been a part of living it).

Edited November 3, 2016 by ALarson

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, ALarson said:

That's where we disagree.  I believe polygamy is a man made practice, not from God.

At the very least, the OT seems to support the assertion that God did not ever try to stop His prophets from living polygamy, nor ever even tell them it they shouldn't do it.  Neither did being a polygamist mean that a man couldn't also be a true prophet of God.  

Even if polygamy is completely man-made, that much still seems to be supported by the scriptural record.

[Jeanne]

32 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

What does divorce have to do with polygamy?

And according to President Young
"President Young said that when a man married a wife, he took her for better or for worse, and he had no right to ill use her, and if she **** in bed and laid in it until noon he must bear it, until he gets power over her to learn her better. A man that would mistreat a woman in order to get her to leave him would find himself in the worlds to come alone. He said he knew of no law to give a man in polygamy a divorce." 
Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 3:1454

Oh....this.  It sounds great...I am so impressed with BY.