rongo Posted November 1, 2016 Posted November 1, 2016 37 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Joseph Smith and other early church leaders didn't follow the WoW even after the 1833 revelation for D&C 89 was received: http://en.fairmormon.org/Word_of_Wisdom/Joseph_Smith_drank_alcohol_prior_to_the_martyrdom Why are early leaders given a pass for drinking alcohol, tea, coffee, and smoking, while those today are held to a higher standard? Presentism seems to be the only explanation I have heard, which is just a justification in my opinion. I find it ironic that Brigham Young ran distillers in Utah..but you can't even purchase a Coke with caffeine on campus on BYU today. http://en.fairmormon.org/Word_of_Wisdom/Brigham_Young's_whiskey_distillery It isn't about "giving early leaders a pass." It's about your (and my) adherence to Church standards we are under today (which has existed since the Grant administration). Justifying our personal druthers because early church leaders treated the WoW as advice instead of a binding commandment doesn't really have a bearing on where we stand to the Church and its standards today. You are certainly free to do whatever you want, and the Church is free to restrict your temple access. You are only limiting your own blessings and privileges by choosing this as a hill to die on. Is it worth it?
Jeanne Posted November 1, 2016 Posted November 1, 2016 The thing is (at least to me)...if one is living a good life and is following the precepts of all other gospel teachings, (which includes treating your body a a temple)..why would God deprive temple blessings because of an occasional cup of tea?? I mean would He not want you to partake of those blessings in light of the fact that it, too, is a commandment and one's desire to do work for their dead. Just doesn't sound right. Obedience is the deal, I understand that but knowledge and science has changed. Isn't time to redefine the WOW which wasn't really clear in the first place.
Guest Posted November 1, 2016 Posted November 1, 2016 To those who care...I openly drink, water and milk. I privately drink, orange juice, because my doctor in league with Satan has convinced my wife that it is bad for my diabetes. I guess the next step is an appointment with my Bishop. 2
Ouagadougou Posted November 1, 2016 Author Posted November 1, 2016 51 minutes ago, rongo said: It isn't about "giving early leaders a pass." It's about your (and my) adherence to Church standards we are under today (which has existed since the Grant administration). Justifying our personal druthers because early church leaders treated the WoW as advice instead of a binding commandment doesn't really have a bearing on where we stand to the Church and its standards today. You are certainly free to do whatever you want, and the Church is free to restrict your temple access. You are only limiting your own blessings and privileges by choosing this as a hill to die on. Is it worth it? In my opinion, yes, it is worth it because I don't feel there is anything wrong with drinking tea. I don't need to justify it because I view it as a healthy life choice. The church is so focused on temple recommends and meeting a checklist, when its founder, Joseph Smith, wouldn't even get a temple recommend by today's standards. If the revelation was received in 1833, why did it take so long to become a checklist commandment to technically be saved and enter the temple? I think it's a very valid point to make note of the overall hypocrisy of early church leaders as it pertains to the WoW.
Ouagadougou Posted November 1, 2016 Author Posted November 1, 2016 55 minutes ago, Jeanne said: The thing is (at least to me)...if one is living a good life and is following the precepts of all other gospel teachings, (which includes treating your body a a temple)..why would God deprive temple blessings because of an occasional cup of tea?? I mean would He not want you to partake of those blessings in light of the fact that it, too, is a commandment and one's desire to do work for their dead. Just doesn't sound right. Obedience is the deal, I understand that but knowledge and science has changed. Isn't time to redefine the WOW which wasn't really clear in the first place. I agree with you. It's a line in the sand for me that makes no sense.
Ouagadougou Posted November 1, 2016 Author Posted November 1, 2016 53 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: To those who care...I openly drink, water and milk. I privately drink, orange juice, because my doctor in league with Satan has convinced my wife that it is bad for my diabetes. I guess the next step is an appointment with my Bishop. I'm sure if the church leadership came out with a new revelation that you couldn't get a temple recommend for drinking milk or juice, then many members would follow this policy/guidance/commandment, just so they could get a temple recommend. The way you view drinking juice is exactly how I view drinking tea. It's absurd to me that drinking tea is basically something that will determine salvation, exaltation, and worthiness to enter into the temple, especially when you can consume other drinks that are WAY worse and still be found "worthy."
rpn Posted November 1, 2016 Posted November 1, 2016 The fact is that we are only required to go to the temple once in our lives, to get our own ordinances done. So not being able to get a TR thereafter may not be a problem at all, except the good one could have done, and the help some find therein. I don't see anyone being denied blessings of the temple for ourselves if the issue is ongoing holding a TR. 1
Ouagadougou Posted November 1, 2016 Author Posted November 1, 2016 5 minutes ago, rpn said: The fact is that we are only required to go to the temple once in our lives, to get our own ordinances done. So not being able to get a TR thereafter may not be a problem at all, except the good one could have done, and the help some find therein. I don't see anyone being denied blessings of the temple for ourselves if the issue is ongoing holding a TR. I've already been to the temple numerous times (when I wasn't drinking tea), so I guess all is well. 😀
Tacenda Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 I think tea/coffee has the appearance of evil. That's about it. That's why the church is against it.
Ouagadougou Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 5 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I think tea/coffee has the appearance of evil. That's about it. That's why the church is against it. An energy drink with the title of "Monster" doesn't get any more evil in my opinion; yet, you can still go to the temple if you drink 10 Monsters a day. 😀 I have family members who abuse prescription drugs and hold temple recommends, but green tea is deciding factor in my salvation and ability to get a temple recommend. I view the church's stance against tea and coffee almost as a superstition -- just like other religions/cultures have other foods drinks that are taboo.
Tacenda Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 3 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: An energy drink with the title of "Monster" doesn't get any more evil in my opinion; yet, you can still go to the temple if you drink 10 Monsters a day. 😀 I have family members who abuse prescription drugs and hold temple recommends, but green tea is deciding factor in my salvation and ability to get a temple recommend. I view the church's stance against tea and coffee almost as a superstition -- just like other religions/cultures have other foods drinks that are taboo. I should reiterate, or make clear. I think the church may think it has the appearance of evil. Maybe since coffee and smoking go hand in hand, etc. Or use to. I have Alzheimer's in my family and I'd heard green tea and coffee is a good idea to maybe prevent it. I called the church office building a few years ago when I wasn't struggling with my testimony, and the lady on the phone had me speak with a gentlemen. He mentioned it was basically up to me, and that he knew a doctor that drank green tea for health, and I believe that member was in good standing. Also, I knew an older lady years ago that would get a temple recommend but drink tea also. I guess it all depends on who does the interview. When I was married in the temple my dad drank coffee, because it helped him with his chronic pain. The bishop said if he went to decaf coffee he could get his recommend renewed in order to attend. Of course my dad did this for a short time and then went back to regular. I think it's the flip of the coin on which church leader will insist upon following the coffee/tea thing. Then I mentioned this to a woman who was a Primary president at the time and she mentioned maybe coffee has the appearance of evil. Because I'd mentioned what had happened with my dad, and how members drink soda with caffeine. I think she nailed it, it's probably the appearance of evil, more or less, IMO. I know in the Bible it has a scripture that it's not what is taken in the body that defileth the body it's what comes out of the mouth. Matt. 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. 1
Ouagadougou Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 28 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I should reiterate, or make clear. I think the church may think it has the appearance of evil. Maybe since coffee and smoking go hand in hand, etc. Or use to. I have Alzheimer's in my family and I'd heard green tea and coffee is a good idea to maybe prevent it. I called the church office building a few years ago when I wasn't struggling with my testimony, and the lady on the phone had me speak with a gentlemen. He mentioned it was basically up to me, and that he knew a doctor that drank green tea for health, and I believe that member was in good standing. Also, I knew an older lady years ago that would get a temple recommend but drink tea also. I guess it all depends on who does the interview. When I was married in the temple my dad drank coffee, because it helped him with his chronic pain. The bishop said if he went to decaf coffee he could get his recommend renewed in order to attend. Of course my dad did this for a short time and then went back to regular. I think it's the flip of the coin on which church leader will insist upon following the coffee/tea thing. Then I mentioned this to a woman who was a Primary president at the time and she mentioned maybe coffee has the appearance of evil. Because I'd mentioned what had happened with my dad, and how members drink soda with caffeine. I think she nailed it, it's probably the appearance of evil, more or less, IMO. I know in the Bible it has a scripture that it's not what is taken in the body that defileth the body it's what comes out of the mouth. Matt. 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. Interesting. Thanks for sharing!
The Nehor Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 17 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: This is my first post here, Uhhhhh....this is the second thread you have started. How can this be your first post? 1
strappinglad Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 For some instruction on God's reasoning, review 2 Kings 5 : 8-15 and ask what the big deal was about the river Jordan.
Ouagadougou Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Uhhhhh....this is the second thread you have started. How can this be your first post? Ok. First post about a subject. The "first" post was an intro...so second post.
Ouagadougou Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 (edited) 54 minutes ago, strappinglad said: For some instruction on God's reasoning, review 2 Kings 5 : 8-15 and ask what the big deal was about the river Jordan. Because drinking tea is comparable to having leprosy -- but if I quit -- it's like I've been cured of some terrible spiritual disease? Drinking tea has no effect on my own spirituality...it's a pointless policy/commandment in my opinion. Edited November 2, 2016 by Ouagadougou
strappinglad Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 If I recall my science classes, Density is computed by taking the mass of an object and dividing by the volume of that object.
waveslider Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 22 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: It amazes me how many members I know who drink Mountain Dew, Coke, Pepsi, energy drinks and the list goes on, but they won't drink tea (which is way better for them then these other drinks) because of D&C 89. Don't forget this is "Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints." (D&C 89:3) The weakest of saints often times don't understand the spirit of the law, only the letter. It takes time to learn that what they are choosing to bring into their bodies aren't good for them as well. We all learn line upon line, precept on precept, and we are all at different levels. 22 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: If I stop drinking tea and then decide to start drinking soda and energy drinks (which are allowed by all accounts), then I will be more blessed? Or, if I stop drinking tea but eat fast food and junk food every day, then I will be blessed? Unfortunately, some parts of the Word of Wisdom to me are just a check in the box that don't really make much sense. I think a lot of members seem to overlook this part of the WoW: "Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—" (D&C 89:4) Many people don't see the evil behind these so called, "allowed by all accounts," things they are ingesting. The fact that some of these substances found in sodas and fast food, etc., ....even our regular food, are legal even though we have found that these substances cause really bad health problems, diseases and even premature deaths, shows that there are conspiring men in these last days, controlling and seeking to control all our food. It is kind of chilling to see one of the worlds largest chemical companies (Monsanto), who now controls most of the food production that is grown by farmers, is being absorbed (sometime around the end of 2017) by one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies (Germany's Bayer), as they continue to use us as lab experiments for the GMO's (which is really a misnomer because it should be called genetically engineered organisms since they are adding genetic material directly into individual cells from organisms that otherwise would never be able to enter into these cells by conventional genetic modification processes that have been in play previous to now) that they keep polluting our biosphere with, along with their highly toxic chemicals they use to kill off the pests and weeds, as they constantly use the revolving door technique of going from their private sector jobs, to governmental, regulatory agencies, and back again (http://ocsoco.org/sites/default/files/monsantofed_venndiag_1056.jpg) as they change the regulations that allow further abuse by these companies. From what I can know, I think drinking tea isn't the most dangerous thing, but on the same token there is a reason that it was pointed out directly by revelation, that it is part of the WoW, which is adapted to the weak and weakest of saints, while a lot of the nuances of what has become the Western societies' normal and accepted diet, haven't been mentioned at all, or at least very little, it makes me wonder what it is that we don't know about coffee and tea, even if it is in a purely spiritual sense. I can't judge you for feeling like it is acceptable to drink tea, I personally know that God said it so I will try to heed that advice even though I have, in the past, had green tea help to heal me from colds and the flu much faster than without. If God let's me know I shouldn't drink it, I don't even need to know why he said it. I don't even care if it is only a test to see if I will obey Him no matter what, and there really isn't anything wrong with it, except for the fact that He commanded against it. I guess it is up to each of us to prayerfully decide whether to obey the WoW as described to us or not. I just know that this isn't the first thing that I haven't understood the alleged paradoxes of the commandments and witnesses of truth by the Holy Ghost, compared to my limited understanding. So I will choose to exercise faith, and not rationalize why I shouldn't need to obey.
Guest Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 15 hours ago, Ouagadougou said: I'm sure if the church leadership came out with a new revelation that you couldn't get a temple recommend for drinking milk or juice, then many members would follow this policy/guidance/commandment, just so they could get a temple recommend. The way you view drinking juice is exactly how I view drinking tea. It's absurd to me that drinking tea is basically something that will determine salvation, exaltation, and worthiness to enter into the temple, especially when you can consume other drinks that are WAY worse and still be found "worthy." What I said was in jest. But I do not think the only reason that members follow the commandments of God is just to get a Temple recommend. Some, if not most, do so because they want to follow God's commandments, to enjoy his blessings, and because they believe that he knows best for us all. Also because we love God the Father and Jesus Christ and wish to please them...as for myself, this is why I obey. Those who can marry in the Temple and choose not to must wait a year before getting a recommend, I doubt they take a 9 months off for obeying God's commandments and then do so just to get a recommend. I would hate to be that cynical about others motives. 2
Gray Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 You are following both the spirit and the letter of the Word of Wisdom as recorded in the D&C. You're not following how it's been reinterpreted modernly, but I think the point of it was health, not blind obedience. So anyone living a healthy lifestyle is following the intent of the Word of Wisdom. 1
Guest Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 1 minute ago, Gray said: You are following both the spirit and the letter of the Word of Wisdom as recorded in the D&C. You're not following how it's been reinterpreted modernly, but I think the point of it was health, not blind obedience. So anyone living a healthy lifestyle is following the intent of the Word of Wisdom. Who is this addressed too?
Gray Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 2 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Who is this addressed too? The person who started the thread, sorry for the confusion!
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