CV75 Posted October 24, 2016 Posted October 24, 2016 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Among scholars there is never a question about the unconditional nature of the Abrahamic Covenant, and you can find a nice summary at https://gotquestions.org/Abrahamic-covenant.html , This is interesting as in some cases, an oath and a covenant can be considered the same thing, but can also to be two different things. I would have thought the scholars would have teased that out a little more... God making a promise that requires nothing in return, in my thinking, is an oath. The covenant, based on that oath, is the agreement between God and Abraham that allows Abraham to realize in his life the blessings of the oath. Semantics wouldn't matter until the conditional nature of keeping the terms of a covenant are taken to be the unconditional nature of the oath. That could get someone (and that would not be God!) into trouble! I see the Atonement in the same way: it was carried out and its effects are already established for every child of God. It is unconditional, just as Christ finished it on the cross. But the covenants that hinge on it are conditional in that the blessings of the Atonement only come by way of faith and obedience (grace is a given). Covenants bring heaven and earth together (under certain conditions), but oaths are held up by the power and authority by which they are made (God's oaths are made in heaven). I can see how some of this can be overlooked without latter-day scriptures, but even then, there are hints to the contrary, such as Genesis 22:16. 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: The theological concept of unmerited suffering being redemptive does not depend upon the feelings of individual Jews (whether survivors or observers), but the effect upon the whole people. In this instance, I suspect that the founding of the State of Israel and its continued victorious existence is payment due from God for the centuries of pogroms and persecution while in their Diaspora, which is now at an end. On orders from Joseph Smith, Orson Hyde formally ended that Diaspora and began the eschatological gathering of the Jews in 1841. The times of the Gentiles are coming to an end, and the first shall be the last -- as promised. I do not take the prophecies and their fulfillment for the Jews as a people as being driven by the abuse heaped upon them. As a people, they are saviors of the nations inasmuch as they are obedient (per the terms of the Abraham covenant), just as the organized latter-day saints are, but their abuse was neither a vicarious atonement for the rest of mankind nor for their own atonement as a people. That flies in the face of the animal sacrifices (and they were not to be saved by them, either). The scripture indicates their abuse was the anticipated consequence of falling into line with the law of the jungle with the rest of the fallen world, after rejecting the covenants. I think the prophecies reflect the Lord's expectations, plan, timetable, etc. with an eye toward blessing the entire world. There must be a rabbinic school of thought out there which agrees with that! The Book of Mormon has many prophecies about the Gentiles as well, for the same reason (expectations, plan, timetable, etc.).
Robert F. Smith Posted October 24, 2016 Posted October 24, 2016 24 minutes ago, CV75 said: ....................................................................... I do not take the prophecies and their fulfillment for the Jews as a people as being driven by the abuse heaped upon them. As a people, they are saviors of the nations inasmuch as they are obedient (per the terms of the Abraham covenant), just as the organized latter-day saints are, but their abuse was neither a vicarious atonement for the rest of mankind nor for their own atonement as a people. That flies in the face of the animal sacrifices (and they were not to be saved by them, either). The scripture indicates their abuse was the anticipated consequence of falling into line with the law of the jungle with the rest of the fallen world, after rejecting the covenants. I think the prophecies reflect the Lord's expectations, plan, timetable, etc. with an eye toward blessing the entire world. There must be a rabbinic school of thought out there which agrees with that! The Book of Mormon has many prophecies about the Gentiles as well, for the same reason (expectations, plan, timetable, etc.). The rabbis are very frank in explaining that the Diaspora was punishment for disobedience, and the Jews as a people have accepted that. They really had no choice. I recall back in 1967, halfway through the Arab-Israeli Six-Day War, when the Old City of Jerusalem had been recaptured by the Jews after nearly two millennia, I was walking away from the communal dining Hall on my kibbutz. And I encountered a kibbutz member named David. He was the kibbutz electrician. He briefly stopped and said to me in Hebrew, "We thought there was no God. Maybe we were wrong."
CV75 Posted October 24, 2016 Posted October 24, 2016 15 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: The rabbis are very frank in explaining that the Diaspora was punishment for disobedience, and the Jews as a people have accepted that. They really had no choice. I recall back in 1967, halfway through the Arab-Israeli Six-Day War, when the Old City of Jerusalem had been recaptured by the Jews after nearly two millennia, I was walking away from the communal dining Hall on my kibbutz. And I encountered a kibbutz member named David. He was the kibbutz electrician. He briefly stopped and said to me in Hebrew, "We thought there was no God. Maybe we were wrong." I thought so -- I grew up in Manhattan and this was this was the sense I got from my Jewish friends. Just in passing; we never really talked "religion." I was only 10 years old in 1967 but recall the Six-Day War (it came up in Little League practice of all places...). I was in high school for the other short war and of course Vietnam was on everyone's mind in competition with that. I recently read The Chosen after dropping it a number of items as a teenager (at the time, the inconsolable angst expressed by the characters was too much for me, having seen so much of it among my acquaintances already, and my parents' friends always bringing up the issues when they came over--selfish, unempathetic teenager that I was!). It certainly captured the tone of many of the Jewish people I knew in Stuyvesantown. That must have been quite the experience on the kibbutz and offered incredible insights for you. But the idea of "unmerited suffering being redemptive" in my mind certainly facilitates the idea of a human Messiah setting things aright for the Jewish people as well as bringing about the the age of peace and brotherhood for everyone.
James Tunney Posted October 24, 2016 Posted October 24, 2016 4 hours ago, bluebell said: Because God is only all powerful because He's God--because He keeps the law. If He were unjust (and let's all take a moment and be very happy that we are not in the hands of an unjust God), He would cease to be all-powerful. We forgive our children but we can't fix everything that they do-we can't undo the consequences of their choices, neither can we keep them from suffering the consequences themselves. There are many people's children in prison right now whose parents have forgiven them. The consequences remain. Forgiveness alone cannot settle the demands of justice. Not for us as parents and not for God as a parent. That seems to be the typical mormon answer that never sat well with me. One has to presume that God cant forgive the sin or the consequences of the sin without jesus' sacrifice.
bluebell Posted October 24, 2016 Posted October 24, 2016 6 minutes ago, James Tunney said: That seems to be the typical mormon answer that never sat well with me. One has to presume that God cant forgive the sin or the consequences of the sin without jesus' sacrifice. This is the typical Christian answer. The gospel of Christ is that there is no other way to heaven but thru Him. That is the good news of Christ. I don't know if any Christian church that does not teach that, Mormons included. But you are right in that one has to presume that Christianity and the scriptures are correct. 1
Roger Baker Posted January 2, 2017 Posted January 2, 2017 The questions of what the Atonement is and how the Atonement works are fundamental to both religion and spirituality. They are corollary to the questions of who Jesus is and what Jesus does. My father, Nelson Baker, a retired international corporate attorney, recently published a beautiful book intent on answering these precise questions. The book represents his lifetime of scriptural research and synthesis on the topic. The book's thesis is based in holy writ and not in personal opinion or speculation. Nelson explains that the Atonement goes beyond the concepts of justice and mercy, of payment for sin and debt. The Atonement is the process by which Jesus brings every willing soul to him. You can find the book, entitled The Process of Atonement, at Amazon here. Nelson published the book in September 2016. I hope it will help to answer some of your important questions.
Rivers Posted January 4, 2017 Posted January 4, 2017 I have come to view the atonement has the ultimate manifestation of love from God to his children. It is God's way of letting us know how precious and valuable we are to Him. Just as the ancients made sacrifices to God was a way of showing devotion to Him, the atonement is God's demonstration of love to us. It is the power of God's love that heals world and enables us to be "at one." That's my two cents. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 4, 2017 Posted January 4, 2017 38 minutes ago, Rivers said: I have come to view the atonement has the ultimate manifestation of love from God to his children. It is God's way of letting us know how precious and valuable we are to Him. Just as the ancients made sacrifices to God was a way of showing devotion to Him, the atonement is God's demonstration of love to us. It is the power of God's love that heals world and enables us to be "at one." That's my two cents. I like this. For me the atonement is the ultimate expression of God's character. It provides mercy for the child that strays. It provides teaching and lessons to help us back onto the path to become like God. It provides for justice and the upholding of law and correct principles even when they have been broken. It provides healing and bridging of the gap that our breaking of law creates between us and God. For me the atonement is the perfect answer to the question of balancing law and love. 2
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