etz Posted October 20, 2016 Author Posted October 20, 2016 Just now, JLHPROF said: But most importantly make your claims correct. Feel free to boldly and forthrightly correct my claims.
etz Posted October 20, 2016 Author Posted October 20, 2016 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Gray said: No, I don't think it's within the realm of any reasonable possibility that that is the case. Well, I happen to think that when God told Joseph "This is my beloved son. Hear him!" he might have actually and literally said those exact words to Joseph. But reasonable people may differ in their views on that subject, I suppose. And I happen to think the evidence for the Book of Mormon being given to Joseph word-for-word is pretty strong, but again, reasonable people may differ in their views on that subject, too. Edited October 20, 2016 by etz
JLHPROF Posted October 20, 2016 Posted October 20, 2016 16 minutes ago, etz said: Feel free to boldly and forthrightly correct my claims. Your entire argument on this thread seems to be that we should give all our possessions away, based on nothing but a proof text taken in isolation from all other scriptures and prophetic instructions. Did I get that right? If so I think your claim doesn't need any correcting it is so clearly false.
etz Posted October 20, 2016 Author Posted October 20, 2016 22 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Your entire argument on this thread seems to be that we should give all our possessions away, based on nothing but a proof text taken in isolation from all other scriptures and prophetic instructions. Did I get that right? If so I think your claim doesn't need any correcting it is so clearly false. 1. No, you didn't get that right. My entire argument is that those who have covenanted to keep the commandments of Jesus ought to keep the commandments of Jesus - and the commandments of Jesus are found in the Book of Mormon and the New Testament. 2. If you see a conflict between "prophetic instruction" or "all other scriptures" and the commandments of Jesus, why wouldn't one who has covenanted to keep the commandments of Jesus resolve that conflict in favor of Jesus's commandments?
Calm Posted October 20, 2016 Posted October 20, 2016 Etz, what are the commandments in regard to our possessions, including food, shelter, clothing, etc?
etz Posted October 21, 2016 Author Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) I'm sure you know the scriptures, Calmoriah. Certainly you have access to the internet sufficiently to post here, and can therefore access scriptures.lds.org - how do you read them? For brevity, you might go to Luke 6. For a more full treatment, you might re-read 3 Nephi, chapters 12 through 15 or so. Edited October 21, 2016 by etz
Bernard Gui Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Your entire argument on this thread seems to be that we should give all our possessions away, based on nothing but a proof text taken in isolation from all other scriptures and prophetic instructions. Of course, the clear meaning of the scripture is that we are to have no possessions. But if we have no possessions, what are we to give to the poor or the beggar? The question is, do we really own our stuff? If we own nothing, then we have nothing to give. But if we do own something, we must give it away. But if we give it all away, we no longer have anything to give away, and are forever useless to provide for others. If we give our cloak to a brother, can we ask for it back? What if we need it? Is he obligated to give it back? In the end, who walks away with the cloak? Or do we both walk away naked because we gave it to someone else who asked for it? Or like Solomon, do we cut the cloak in half and each wear half a cloak? How many times can we cut it and still call it a cloak? Is it just cloaks we are to give away, or our loincloths, too? Or, if we give the cloak away, God may provide us another cloak which starts us back on the cycle? If the cloaks are perpetually passed along, someone ends up without one. Who owns the material from which the tailors make the cloaks? Should the tailors sell the cloaks or give them away? Umberto Eco wrote an excellent book using this premise (poverty and Sermon on the Mount).....The Name of the Rose. Medieval Dominican and Franciscan monks violently debate the question "Did Jesus and the disciples own personal property?" In the Picador edition, it is on pages 335-48. William, a Franciscan, and Adso, his apprentice, observe the debate and ensuing brawl. Quote A scene from the great debate on whether or not Jesus had personal possessions: "But like besiegers and besieged, on both sides of the walls of a fortress, they hurled insults and rebuttals at one another...in Mediterranean fashion, one overlapping another, like the waves of an angry sea." "The Gospel says Christ had a purse!" "Shut up! You people paint that purse even on crucifixes! What do you say, then of the fact that our Lord, when he entered Jerusalem, went back every night to Bethany?" "If our Lord chose to go and sleep in Bethany, who are you to question his decision?" "No, you old ***, our Lord returned to Bethany because he had no money to pay for an inn in Jerusalem!" "You're the *** here!? What did our Lord eat in Jerusalem?" "Would you say, then, that a horse who receives oats from his master to keep alive is the owner of the oats?" "You see? You compare Christ to a horse!" "No, you are the one who compares Christ to a simoniacal prelate of your court, vessel of dung!" "Then Alborea, running short on arguments, started to cross the space that separated him from the Minorities, indicating in a loud voice and with words I dare not repeat his firm intention to pull off the beard of the Bishop of Kaffa, whose masculinity he called into question and whom he planned to punish, by the logic of an eye for an eye, shoving that beard in a certain place. "Are there no better arguments," I asked my master, as Alborea tugged at the beard of the Bishop of Kaffa, "to prove or refute the poverty of Christ?" "Why, you can affirm both positions, my good Adso," William said, "and you will never be able to establish on the basis of the Gospels whether, and to what extent, Christ considered as his property the tunic he wore, which he then perhaps threw away when it was worn out. And, if you like, the doctrine of Thomas Aquinas on property is bolder than that of us Minorities. We say: We own nothing and have everything [common] in use. He said: Consider yourselves also owners, provided that, if anyone lacked what you possess, you grant him its use, and out of obligation, not charity. But the question is not whether Christ was poor: it is whether the church must be poor." A more serious question that becomes the greater conflict of the book is, "Did Jesus laugh?" Edited October 21, 2016 by Bernard Gui 2
Rain Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 3 hours ago, etz said: Feel free to boldly and forthrightly correct my claims. 4 hours ago, etz said: Either MFB doesn't understand the commandments, or he feigns uncomprehension, on the face of it. I assume he's honest until he tells me differently. Seeking my life was done openly by The Nehor and Rain, was it? on the now-closed thread "Your Bill is Coming Due." See Deuteronomy 24:6 - taking a man's means of support, as they sought to do, is considered trying for a man's life, by the law of God. If you openly admit you don't keep the commandments, how is it a denouncement to believe you? And if you say you don't understand them, how is it a denouncement to believe you? Here, let me boldly correct your claims. I was not openly seeking your life by trying to take your means of support. I highly doubt that Nehor was doing that either. I find it dishonest to tell others we have done so. It strikes me that you assume someone else was honest, but dishonestly declare our motives. 3
waveslider Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 3 hours ago, etz said: If you see a conflict between "prophetic instruction" or "all other scriptures" and the commandments of Jesus, why wouldn't one who has covenanted to keep the commandments of Jesus resolve that conflict in favor of Jesus's commandments? So what conflict is it that you are seeing between Prophetic instruction, scriptures, and the commandments of Jesus? I personally don't see it, but if I don't understand what to do I utilize the power of prayer, and the gift of the Holy Ghost's guidance. Shirley if we hear His voice, we will know what to do as comfort comes from the comforter whom the Father sends in Christ's name, letting us know that we are truly following Him.. "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:" John 15:26 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13
JLHPROF Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 5 hours ago, etz said: 1. No, you didn't get that right. My entire argument is that those who have covenanted to keep the commandments of Jesus ought to keep the commandments of Jesus - and the commandments of Jesus are found in the Book of Mormon and the New Testament. I agree. Exactly which commandment of Christ is it you think we aren't living/keeping? And which contextual scriptural references do you base that on? Quote 2. If you see a conflict between "prophetic instruction" or "all other scriptures" and the commandments of Jesus, why wouldn't one who has covenanted to keep the commandments of Jesus resolve that conflict in favor of Jesus's commandments? This presupposes that we have a correct understanding of all Jesus's commandments and how to apply them in our lives at any given time. If a conflict appears in our path then either our understanding of one or the other is wrong, or one or the other conflicting teaching is actually wrong. I see no commandment from Christ stating we are to give away all our possessions. Poverty is not required in Christianity. But I see many commandments from Christ that teach higher principles concerning our possessions - everything from Consecration to Sacrifice to Charity to focusing on Treasures in Heaven. So there is some truth to the principle you espouse. But your method of application may not be entirely scriptural. 1
Calm Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 5 hours ago, etz said: I'm sure you know the scriptures, Calmoriah. Certainly you have access to the internet sufficiently to post here, and can therefore access scriptures.lds.org - how do you read them? For brevity, you might go to Luke 6. For a more full treatment, you might re-read 3 Nephi, chapters 12 through 15 or so. Yes, I know the commandments well, including those about judgment and false witness. I am asking your POV since you have so eagerly condemned others for not following them. 3
Bernard Gui Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) This discussion reminds me of ones we used to have over on the old ZLMB with a Calvinist named Paul Durkowski or something like that. Some sort of -------ski. He had his own website that critiqued Mormonism via Calvinism. Edited October 21, 2016 by Bernard Gui
mfbukowski Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 8 hours ago, etz said: If you do not understand the commandments, as your post made clear, then what do you teach your quorum, or family, or from the pulpit? Clearly not the commandments of God. Whose commandments, then, do you teach? I teach people to be humble, not to judge others, not to condemn others they do not even know, nor to hold myself out as perfect and sanctimonious bragging about my own righteousness while judging others unrighteously. Whited sepulchres come to mind. I teach them to avoid those with false pride who act as if they are not also sinners. 4
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