bdouglas Posted October 6, 2016 Posted October 6, 2016 (edited) I've been reading the collected works/stories of Isaac Bashevis Singer, a Jewish writer who wrote in Yiddish. (I'm reading his stories in translation.) Some of his stories are contemporary but most are set among Yiddish Jews of the 19th century in Poland. In one of these stories (I've only read maybe 20%) a certain character, an orthodox Jew, is said to "fear reincarnation" i.e. he is afraid, since he has sinned, of what his reincarnation might entail. I've heard, or read elsewhere that Jews, or some Jewish sects believe in reincarnation. I found the following website interesting: http://www.aish.com/jl/l/a/48943926.html Two quotes from the Zohar: Quote As long as a person is unsuccessful in his purpose in this world, the Holy One, blessed be He, uproots him and replants him over and over again. (Zohar I 186b) All souls are subject to reincarnation; and people do not know the ways of the Holy One, blessed be He! They do not know that they are brought before the tribunal both before they enter into this world and after they leave it; they are ignorant of the many reincarnations and secret works which they have to undergo, and of the number of naked souls, and how many naked spirits roam about in the other world without being able to enter within the veil of the King's Palace. Men do not know how the souls revolve like a stone that is thrown from a sling. But the time is at hand when these mysteries will be disclosed. (Zohar II 99b) This sounds a lot like the Mormon folk doctrine of "multiple probations" that is still believed and preached by certain fundamentalist LDS. (For example the Manti Mormons, led by the late Jim Harmston, believed in multiple probations.) I know active mainstream LDS who believe in multiple probations, but I find zero evidence for this doctrine in the scriptures. Thoughts? Edited October 6, 2016 by bdouglas 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 6, 2016 Posted October 6, 2016 Reincarnation scares the utter living crap out of me.
bdouglas Posted October 6, 2016 Author Posted October 6, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Reincarnation scares the utter living crap out of me. I also find the whole idea very depressing. I've given it some thought, and come to conclusion that I must've had other lives ... but not on this earth. There is no support in the scriptures, at least none that I know of, that I or any other human being has had more than one life on this earth. But still this idea persists, not only as an LDS folk doctrine but in certain Jewish texts. Edited October 6, 2016 by bdouglas 1
mfbukowski Posted October 6, 2016 Posted October 6, 2016 3 hours ago, bdouglas said: I also find the whole idea very depressing. I've given it some thought, and come to conclusion that I must've had other lives ... but not on this earth. There is no support in the scriptures, at least none that I know of, that I or any other human being has had more than one life on this earth. But still this idea persists, not only as an LDS folk doctrine but in certain Jewish texts. Sounds like you have answered your own question then. 1
Boanerges Posted October 6, 2016 Posted October 6, 2016 I used to work at a small company owned by a Jewish man and there was a good mix of Jewish and non-Jewish employees and clients (most clients were Jewish). It was very interesting to me the very wide variety of beliefs among my Jewish friends there. The company employed Jews of all different "colors" including very orthodox, conservative, and reform, although it's not necessarily all that easy to pigeon hole or label each one. Some were very observant and others not so much, perhaps attending services only on the big holidays or not at all. Even among the orthodox there were differences in belief about things like heaven and hell with some believing neither existed. For what it's worth, the boss was very orthodox. So, the answer to your question is, it depends on the Jew. Like average Americans of any sect, one could find people with any belief or mix of beliefs. The one thing that stuck out to me while I worked there was this: Even though some Jews did not agree with the philosophies and ideas of others (orthodox vs. reform, for example) when it came down to it they were all Jews and treated each other as Jews. That is, if a reform Jew needed help, the orthodox Jews would help that person even though they disagreed. The orthodox were a bit more outspoken and judgemental, but still didn't hesitate to help. We had a reform female rabbi who sometimes did presentations for the company. She was as welcome and respected as anyone else, and even the orthodox would refer to her as "Rabbi." If it came down to "us" and "them" all Jews regardless of belief were part of "us," and although the non-Jews who worked there were respected and treated professionally, that was sometimes very clear. We Mormons could learn something from the Jews about tolerating differences among us. 4
Buckeye Posted October 6, 2016 Posted October 6, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, bdouglas said: I also find the whole idea very depressing. I've given it some thought, and come to conclusion that I must've had other lives ... but not on this earth. There is no support in the scriptures, at least none that I know of, that I or any other human being has had more than one life on this earth. But still this idea persists, not only as an LDS folk doctrine but in certain Jewish texts. I find reincarnation to be a helpful concept for solving the dilemma of how non-human species can experience a fullness of joy. Our scriptures are pretty thin on what happens to other species after death, yet most mormons I know expect that at least some species (read: their pets) will be with them in the eternities. For instance, I've heard several sisters testify that heaven will not be heaven without their cats (they never seem to appreciate my humor in pointing out that cats don't do so well walking on a ball of glass). Anyway, here's the problem. Either no other species are resurrected to live on this earth (leaving many members sad) or some species are resurrected but not all (tough line to draw) or all species are resurrected. The last possibility simply doesn't work with the physical world we know. Even assuming there was no death of any sort until 6,000 years ago (the most conservative view), there simply is not enough space on earth to house all life that has ever lived. Think of all the birds, locust, insects, plankton, etc. And that's just animals. If we include plants it gets ridiculous to even think of 100 years of life co-existing. So what's the solution? We don't have one. We hypothesize. Multi-verses are an interesting idea to me. So too reincarnation. I'll grant that reincarnation is scary, but no more so than eternal extinction. Edited October 6, 2016 by Buckeye
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 6, 2016 Posted October 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Buckeye said: I find reincarnation to be a helpful concept for solving the dilemma of how non-human species can experience a fullness of joy. Our scriptures are pretty thin on what happens to other species after death, yet most mormons I know expect that at least some species (read: their pets) will be with them in the eternities. For instance, I've heard several sisters testify that heaven will not be heaven without their cats (they never seem to appreciate my humor in pointing out that cats don't do so well walking on a ball of glass). Anyway, here's the problem. Either no other species are resurrected to live on this earth (leaving many members sad) or some species are resurrected but not all (tough line to draw) or all species are resurrected. The last possibility simply doesn't work with the physical world we know. Even assuming there was no death of any sort until 6,000 years ago (the most conservative view), there simply is not enough space on earth to house all life that has ever lived. Think of all the birds, locust, insects, plankton, etc. And that's just animals. If we include plants it gets ridiculous to even think of 100 years of life co-existing. So what's the solution? We don't have one. We hypothesize. Multi-verses are an interesting idea to me. So too reincarnation. I'll grant that reincarnation is scary, but no more so than eternal extinction. I know I'm going to be with my cats in heaven. It's been confirmed to me and it won't be heaven without them. It will be hell.
Jeanne Posted October 6, 2016 Posted October 6, 2016 16 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I know I'm going to be with my cats in heaven. It's been confirmed to me and it won't be heaven without them. It will be hell. I have a horse..a couple of dogs..and the gold fish that went down the drain..waiting for me...I just know it. 1
The Nehor Posted October 6, 2016 Posted October 6, 2016 1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I know I'm going to be with my cats in heaven. It's been confirmed to me and it won't be heaven without them. It will be hell. Cats are narcissistic and evil. Them going to heaven is proof that the atonement is infinite. 2
manofthecloth Posted October 6, 2016 Posted October 6, 2016 18 hours ago, bdouglas said: I also find the whole idea very depressing. I've given it some thought, and come to conclusion that I must've had other lives ... but not on this earth. There is no support in the scriptures, at least none that I know of, that I or any other human being has had more than one life on this earth. But still this idea persists, not only as an LDS folk doctrine but in certain Jewish texts. B. Douglas: We've been down this rabbit hole before in 2014 and 2015. We were Jews (House of Israel) before we were Catholics, but it's the Catholic part of us that has stuck itself in our traditions the most. We trust the Jewish tenets for a lot of things, but not the Kabbalah. Zohar was the quintessential Kabbalist. Chabad (www.chabad.org) has daily study lessons for you to follow in order that one day you could become a holy man; but not the kind of holy man who hears the word of the Lord directly, but one that is so utterly in tune with God, he can only do the perfect will of God. For a Kabbalist, one's neshema (soul) is part of Father and that soul manifests itself now and then on earth. For example, followers of the Rebbe (Rabbi Menachem Schneerson) believe they had front row seats at Mount Sinai as they rejected the higher law for the Mosaic Law. They will disagree on rejecting the higher, but for us it's obvious. There must be a lesser law to progress to a higher. Even in our primary child narrative of the pre-existence we count off the posts of progression 1) First Estate, 2) Second Estate (telestial World), 3) Third Estate ??? Not sure, but it's a higher rung on the ladder than is the 2nd and 1st. Then there's that problem of conflating our lowly 1st and 2nd estates with our Savior's estates. Do we really think he was our equal; that he had not progressed far beyond us? How is it that a firstborn (elder Brother) could be created as a God without any testing. And then there are those pesky statements He made about doing only what He saw his father do. When did He see his Father atone for the sins of this world (or another world)? That’s not in scripture either, but it’s obvious to some. Every good religion deals with progression. Our religion is one of the most enlightened, but we also pull up way short of the obvious. And we say dumb things like reincarnation would negate the Atonement (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Palmer). As I have asked before, how can 1,000 sinful, blood-stained lives negate the need for an individual atonement? The word atonement itself suggests the need for expiation and plural expiations might help us progress. B. Douglas and all scaredy-cats like you: embrace the obvious, put faith in the seed to see if it's true, knock and ask the Lord again, then read the scriptures to see where reincarnation contradicts scripture in such a way that makes it impossible. Progression is impossible without one form of reincarnation or another. Only our traditions are holding you back from exploring the idea in depth...And stop worrying about being deceived, for crying out loud, because being deceived is part of the plan. So get out there and ask the Lord for help.
The Nehor Posted October 6, 2016 Posted October 6, 2016 Reincarnation is not progression. It is stasis. Re wiping my memories and having me live the same existence over and over again would be hell. At least eastern religions who believe in it understand that and the whole point is to get off the deranged merry-go-round.
JLHPROF Posted October 6, 2016 Posted October 6, 2016 Reincarnation to this earth is not scriptural. Hebrews tells us that. I don't know about in Judaism. Reincarnation to future worlds may be a possibility. 1
Jeanne Posted October 6, 2016 Posted October 6, 2016 What do we call those moments where we think and say...I have been here before..I have done this before..those moments where we seem like we repeating a part of our lives. I don't know about reincarnation..but I am open..I would like to come back as a baker in Walmart...NOT!
Tacenda Posted October 6, 2016 Posted October 6, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jeanne said: What do we call those moments where we think and say...I have been here before..I have done this before..those moments where we seem like we repeating a part of our lives. I don't know about reincarnation..but I am open..I would like to come back as a baker in Walmart...NOT! Maybe not Walmart but your own little shop? Edited October 7, 2016 by Tacenda 1
bdouglas Posted October 7, 2016 Author Posted October 7, 2016 2 hours ago, manofthecloth said: B. Douglas: We've been down this rabbit hole before in 2014 and 2015. We were Jews (House of Israel) before we were Catholics, but it's the Catholic part of us that has stuck itself in our traditions the most. We trust the Jewish tenets for a lot of things, but not the Kabbalah. Zohar was the quintessential Kabbalist. Chabad (www.chabad.org) has daily study lessons for you to follow in order that one day you could become a holy man; but not the kind of holy man who hears the word of the Lord directly, but one that is so utterly in tune with God, he can only do the perfect will of God. For a Kabbalist, one's neshema (soul) is part of Father and that soul manifests itself now and then on earth. For example, followers of the Rebbe (Rabbi Menachem Schneerson) believe they had front row seats at Mount Sinai as they rejected the higher law for the Mosaic Law. They will disagree on rejecting the higher, but for us it's obvious. There must be a lesser law to progress to a higher. Even in our primary child narrative of the pre-existence we count off the posts of progression 1) First Estate, 2) Second Estate (telestial World), 3) Third Estate ??? Not sure, but it's a higher rung on the ladder than is the 2nd and 1st. Then there's that problem of conflating our lowly 1st and 2nd estates with our Savior's estates. Do we really think he was our equal; that he had not progressed far beyond us? How is it that a firstborn (elder Brother) could be created as a God without any testing. And then there are those pesky statements He made about doing only what He saw his father do. When did He see his Father atone for the sins of this world (or another world)? That’s not in scripture either, but it’s obvious to some. Every good religion deals with progression. Our religion is one of the most enlightened, but we also pull up way short of the obvious. And we say dumb things like reincarnation would negate the Atonement (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Palmer). As I have asked before, how can 1,000 sinful, blood-stained lives negate the need for an individual atonement? The word atonement itself suggests the need for expiation and plural expiations might help us progress. B. Douglas and all scaredy-cats like you: embrace the obvious, put faith in the seed to see if it's true, knock and ask the Lord again, then read the scriptures to see where reincarnation contradicts scripture in such a way that makes it impossible. Progression is impossible without one form of reincarnation or another. Only our traditions are holding you back from exploring the idea in depth...And stop worrying about being deceived, for crying out loud, because being deceived is part of the plan. So get out there and ask the Lord for help. Can you dumb the above down a bit? — for those of us who are English speakers. What is the above based on? Can you cite any scriptures? No? Then what is it based on? And if Jews, or at least some Jews, believe in reincarnation, what is this belief based on? 1
The Nehor Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 2 hours ago, Tacenda said: Maybe not Walmart but your own little shop? I hope the next time I get a physical body I am an all-powerful god. 1
manofthecloth Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 3 hours ago, bdouglas said: Can you dumb the above down a bit? — for those of us who are English speakers. What is the above based on? Can you cite any scriptures? No? Then what is it based on? And if Jews, or at least some Jews, believe in reincarnation, what is this belief based on? We can't prove God with scripture except to those who have faith in the first place. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. -- Heb 11:6. Reincarnation is one of those mysteries that must be teased out by logic and faith. There is no quick fix on this one. There is no smoking gun evidence, and it is perfectly ok for you to ignore it. There is plenty of logical evidence, however, for gradual progression which is essential to salvation, and there are many tantalizing ways to imagine how we actually do it. Reincarnation is just another way of musing upon the possibilities. For my interests, I will continue to nurture my seedling until it stops growing. So far it is growing beautiful foliage, and I can't wait to see and use the fruits.
bdouglas Posted October 7, 2016 Author Posted October 7, 2016 (edited) 34 minutes ago, manofthecloth said: We can't prove God with scripture except to those who have faith in the first place. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. -- Heb 11:6. Reincarnation is one of those mysteries that must be teased out by logic and faith. There is no quick fix on this one. There is no smoking gun evidence, and it is perfectly ok for you to ignore it. There is plenty of logical evidence, however, for gradual progression which is essential to salvation, and there are many tantalizing ways to imagine how we actually do it. Reincarnation is just another way of musing upon the possibilities. For my interests, I will continue to nurture my seedling until it stops growing. So far it is growing beautiful foliage, and I can't wait to see and use the fruits. Well it's as I and JLHPROF said then — there is no scriptural basis for a belief in reincarnation; in fact the scriptures, in a handful of instances, pretty plainly preclude the idea. And I don't think you can base a belief in reincarnation on "logic", or "plenty of logical evidence," as you say. But it is an interesting idea nonetheless — although very depressing, at least to me it is. I was particularly interested to know where the Jewish idea of reincarnation comes from, if in fact there are Jewish sects who do believe it. Edited October 7, 2016 by bdouglas
JLHPROF Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 7 hours ago, Jeanne said: What do we call those moments where we think and say...I have been here before..I have done this before..those moments where we seem like we repeating a part of our lives. In my opinion we may have been shown some of the paths our lives would follow in the premortal existence before we came here. Either that or we shared in our Heavenly Father's ability to see all things past, present, and future, in the premortal existence. Either way I think deja vu is a memory of that knowledge peaking through the veil.
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 7, 2016 Posted October 7, 2016 I get deja vu a ton. It's so weird yet awesome when it happens because I'm always nostalgic.
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