hope_for_things Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 52 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: So I admit my definitions are not the usual definitions, but never dismiss the ability of the brethren- they are all incredibly accomplished, brilliant men spiritually and intellectually. I agree that your definition of philosophy is different than how they define it, and I find the way you separate the ideas shared in a religious context from the ideas shared in an academic context is interesting to consider. I can't say that it works for me that way though. I have no problem dismissing something I don't agree with, and I don't care how accomplished you think the brethren are. They are humans and just as prone to fallacies of thinking as any of us are. I consider their words, and respect them, but I don't automatically assume their words are inspired by God anymore. 57 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Their specialty is spiritual communication and being close to the spirit- I have no doubt about that whatsoever! They may not be specialists in a discipline called "philosophy" in an academic sense but few in this world are, thank goodness.! So I just see it as philosophical laymen using specialized terminology in a context with which they are not familiar, nothing more nothing less. It is like us waving our hands and discussing "quantum physics" without any clue of what that term means to a specialist in that field. I don't consider that they have a special spiritual connection. I see no objective evidence of this. In fact I see much evidence that the leaders of our religion and other religions very frequently are out of touch with the needs of society as a whole. They are frequently behind the times on important moral and social issues. I don't see any evidence for actual revelation that improves the human condition. I see most of the kinds of innovations happening over the course of human history to be inspired by people willing to go against the predominant religious opinions of the time. Its almost an opposite phenomenon happening, where religions are acting as a negative catalyst and people that are inspired enough to think differently and push against religious dogmas are the people who change the world in profound and important ways.
hope_for_things Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 56 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I think you are wrong on that one- it is an article of faith that we believe the bible insofar as it is translated correctly. We do not believe in God-breathed scripture. Joseph re-wrote whole sections of the bible so it cannot be "God-breathed". The number of errors and contradictions speak for themselves- if members are not aware of that, they are not reading them and using their minds. Members believe the BoM to be the most correct book ever written. They believe the bible was corrupted by translators and scribes over time and precious truths were lost, the BoM even says as much. They believe that revelations Joseph received are pure and God breathed, at least that is my experience.
mfbukowski Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 (edited) 14 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I agree that your definition of philosophy is different than how they define it, and I find the way you separate the ideas shared in a religious context from the ideas shared in an academic context is interesting to consider. I can't say that it works for me that way though. I have no problem dismissing something I don't agree with, and I don't care how accomplished you think the brethren are. They are humans and just as prone to fallacies of thinking as any of us are. I consider their words, and respect them, but I don't automatically assume their words are inspired by God anymore. I don't consider that they have a special spiritual connection. I see no objective evidence of this. In fact I see much evidence that the leaders of our religion and other religions very frequently are out of touch with the needs of society as a whole. They are frequently behind the times on important moral and social issues. I don't see any evidence for actual revelation that improves the human condition. I see most of the kinds of innovations happening over the course of human history to be inspired by people willing to go against the predominant religious opinions of the time. Its almost an opposite phenomenon happening, where religions are acting as a negative catalyst and people that are inspired enough to think differently and push against religious dogmas are the people who change the world in profound and important ways. Emphasis added. I suggest you re-think the meaning of "inspiration" and "evidence" in the above thread. I think both terms are used indifferent ways throughout the post making the logic rather confused. I never assume anything is "inspired" unless God confirms it to me. That is the only "evidence" possible for such statements. I hope you find joy, permeating every moment in your life. THAT is true religion. Edited October 3, 2016 by mfbukowski
hope_for_things Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Emphasis added. I suggest you re-think the meaning of "inspiration" and "evidence" in the above thread. I think both terms are used indifferent ways throughout the post making the logic rather confused. I never assume anything is "inspired" unless God confirms it to me. That is the only "evidence" possible for such statements. I hope you find joy, permeating every moment in your life. THAT is true religion. Perhaps a better choice of words would help, but I hope you got the gist of what I'm saying. Are you saying that whenever you get confirmation of something that is "inspired" that your personal confirmation applies to everyone else, people like me? My confirmation tells me that this same inspired statement wasn't inspired at all, but was erroneous reasoning that conflicts with gospel principles. Joy is so wonderful and I strive for it, and i think it is central the gospel message. I would agree with you on that, even if I disagree with some of the statements made in Nelson's talk.
mfbukowski Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 57 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Perhaps a better choice of words would help, but I hope you got the gist of what I'm saying. Are you saying that whenever you get confirmation of something that is "inspired" that your personal confirmation applies to everyone else, people like me? My confirmation tells me that this same inspired statement wasn't inspired at all, but was erroneous reasoning that conflicts with gospel principles. Joy is so wonderful and I strive for it, and i think it is central the gospel message. I would agree with you on that, even if I disagree with some of the statements made in Nelson's talk. No there is no such thing as one "objective" spiritual truth for everyone. YES are ARE principles that always work spiritually to get answers to our individual spiritual questions. You must stop thinking of religion in terms of science and I know that is hard for you to do. Science is precisely about finding answers that apply to everyone, so that anyone can test if the temperature really IS 32 degrees etc and everyone will agree. But even science is a man-made construction- in that example the idea of 32 and "degrees", how big the degrees are etc are all arbitrary constuctions. Are we talking Celsius, Fahrenheit Kelvin or some other system? Those are all arbitrary conventions which have nothing to do with the world outside. Language itself is an arbitrary convention that has nothing to do wiht the world outside, hence the Rorty quote, as ever, below. That doesn't seem to have sunken in- it's not your fault - no one can seem to get that unless I guess you have been trained to get it. So statements of spiritual truth are also man-made constructs- languag cannot contain and restrict God or his purposes or his thoughts. We are speaking in worm language and his thoughts are not our thoughts. As in science the best we can do is come up with religious theories which are man made (the bible etc) which are "inspired"= "causing joy to believe" which are coherent theories about our place in the universe, and then these are confirmed by the "spirit"- a source outside ourselves or not, which gives us joy and peace that the theories are "true" So everyone has to find their own theories about what gives them peace and joy. That is our personal construct The way to say that in religious language is that "God teaches each of us the best way for us to come to him as guided by the spirit" For me that is without a doubt the religious "theory" put forward in Mormonism. But that might not be the right path for you at this moment. You need to find the path that gives you peace and joy in your soul. To me, Mormonism is absolutely the best out there- for me it explains everything in ways I can understand perfectly. It gives me full peace and joy. I love it with all my heart, I love the people, I love the fellowship, I love the temple - I love every part of it and I can give, in my opinion, totally reasonable explanations for every doctrine and belief and how they work for me in my life But if it confuses you or is not your path, if your views have been poisoned by erroneous presentations of Mormonism, you must find the way God or your unconscious- whatever it is that gives you peace and joy in your life- leads you. I don't care how people characterize Mormonism or go by dogmas and odd beliefs like thinking that using face cards are of the devil, etc. Find your own way- make your own version and don't worry about what silly people say. This is YOUR journey, not theirs, YOUR joy and peace, not theirs. Just shrug it off. You find silly people saying silly things all the time! That is what the internet is for! Sift through the garbage until you find the diamonds and construct your own way guided by those feelings of peace and joy and seek the unspeakable contact with the infinite. THAT is what it is all about. 2
hope_for_things Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: No there is no such thing as one "objective" spiritual truth for everyone. YES are ARE principles that always work spiritually to get answers to our individual spiritual questions. You must stop thinking of religion in terms of science and I know that is hard for you to do. Science is precisely about finding answers that apply to everyone, so that anyone can test if the temperature really IS 32 degrees etc and everyone will agree. But even science is a man-made construction- in that example the idea of 32 and "degrees", how big the degrees are etc are all arbitrary constuctions. Are we talking Celsius, Fahrenheit Kelvin or some other system? Those are all arbitrary conventions which have nothing to do with the world outside. Language itself is an arbitrary convention that has nothing to do wiht the world outside, hence the Rorty quote, as ever, below. That doesn't seem to have sunken in- it's not your fault - no one can seem to get that unless I guess you have been trained to get it. So statements of spiritual truth are also man-made constructs- languag cannot contain and restrict God or his purposes or his thoughts. We are speaking in worm language and his thoughts are not our thoughts. As in science the best we can do is come up with religious theories which are man made (the bible etc) which are "inspired"= "causing joy to believe" which are coherent theories about our place in the universe, and then these are confirmed by the "spirit"- a source outside ourselves or not, which gives us joy and peace that the theories are "true" I have a hard time separating science and religion, because honestly I'm not sure they are entirely separate. I have read many individuals that separate the two completely, but I think both of them are man made constructions. So I'm not sure that I believe that spirituality is something that exists distinctly, and separately from science. I think they are both languages for explaining how someone experiences life. Some words in the two languages are similar and some are different. I don't see them as two entirely separate ways of viewing the world. 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: So everyone has to find their own theories about what gives them peace and joy. That is our personal construct The way to say that in religious language is that "God teaches each of us the best way for us to come to him as guided by the spirit" I so admire your perspective, so I'm going to take this on faith even though part of me wants to question this. Somewhere deep down inside I believe what you're saying is true, that I need to find what gives me peace and joy, and I feel like I'm testing the waters now in ways I haven't ever done so earlier in life. 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: To me, Mormonism is absolutely the best out there- for me it explains everything in ways I can understand perfectly. It gives me full peace and joy. I love it with all my heart, I love the people, I love the fellowship, I love the temple - I love every part of it and I can give, in my opinion, totally reasonable explanations for every doctrine and belief and how they work for me in my life But if it confuses you or is not your path, if your views have been poisoned by erroneous presentations of Mormonism, you must find the way God or your unconscious- whatever it is that gives you peace and joy in your life- leads you. I don't care how people characterize Mormonism or go by dogmas and odd beliefs like thinking that using face cards are of the devil, etc. Find your own way- make your own version and don't worry about what silly people say. This is YOUR journey, not theirs, YOUR joy and peace, not theirs. Just shrug it off. You find silly people saying silly things all the time! That is what the internet is for! Sift through the garbage until you find the diamonds and construct your own way guided by those feelings of peace and joy and seek the unspeakable contact with the infinite. THAT is what it is all about. I love your comfort in your own skin. This is inspiring to me. Honestly I think your views of Mormonism are radical and completely outside the mainstream, but you love it and you feel accepted in your position. That is so cool. If I could get to the same place you're at, I think I could be comfortable in my Mormonism as well. Right now, I realize its going to take time. There are may complicating factors, family & friends, challenges I have with particular policies, things that are making my feelings towards Mormonism bad and good. Its messy. I feel much more comfortable in my own skin today than just a couple years ago, but I don't know how to help others feel comfortable around me very well yet. I'm trying. I love people, I love my heritage (flawed as it may be). I love my life and I love my conception of God. I wish I could call everything I love "Mormonism", but right now, I don't feel like I can. I consider myself Mormon still, I'm probably the most strictly observant orthoprax inactive person you'll meet, still don't drink caffeinated soda or use salty language. These are attributes of who I am, that I'm grateful for, I don't want to change them, they are part of what I grew up doing, and even though I don't judge others for doing these things like I used to, I still don't have a desire to do them myself. How weird can a person be? I'm the most conservative, non-believing Mormon that I know. I don't fit in with the ex-mo crowd, and I don't fit in with the orthodox crowd either. I have all this knowledge I've been learning over the past few years, things about biblical scholarship and Mormon history. I'm not pursuing a degree, but I'm acquiring all this information. What good does it do? I don't know, but I still keep studying, reading, learning. I'm still looking for those diamonds to build my foundational beliefs on. Thanks for your encouragement to keep seeking. I really appreciate it! 1
mfbukowski Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: I have a hard time separating science and religion, because honestly I'm not sure they are entirely separate. I have read many individuals that separate the two completely, but I think both of them are man made constructions. So I'm not sure that I believe that spirituality is something that exists distinctly, and separately from science. I think they are both languages for explaining how someone experiences life. Some words in the two languages are similar and some are different. I don't see them as two entirely separate ways of viewing the world. Everything we speak is "in our minds" and part of language- by definition. You cannot speak or write things that you have not thought first. In that sense everything is a human "construction" or interpretation. In that sense all of reality can be understood as a "human construction" or a "human invention". Everything we know HAS to be "in our minds" - otherwise Science is testable with observable results. Religion is not testable with observable results. We know by looking out the window that there is a moon. We do not know by looking out the window that there is a God. Please explain how they ARE the same "way of looking at the world". I cannot imagine how they can be the "same". One is easily and by definition, observable through the senses, and the other is NOT by definition, easily observable through the senses. We believe in God by "faith" which means he is NOT observable by the senses. We MAY however experience a sense that God exists "in our hearts" and emotions and through ineffable, spiritual feelings which cannot be put into words. I don't see any possible way one can think that they are NOT "two entirely separate ways of viewing the world". One comes clearly through our senses, the other comes through the emotions, as it were. To summarize then, both are "in our minds" and in some sense "constructions" but experienced in entirely different ways, and so "separate ways of viewing the world". Quote Thanks for your encouragement to keep seeking. I really appreciate it! You are certainly welcome! I am trying to help, I just hope I can! 1
stemelbow Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 Quoting from OP's quote of President Nelson: Quote Anything that opposes Christ or his doctrine will interrupt our joy. That includes the philosophies of men, so abundant online and in the blogosphere, which do exactly what Korihor did Is there truth here? If so, how is it joy was interrupted when polygamy was introduced? How is it that joy was interrupted when the philosophies of men helped introduce the priesthood ban? If we are truly to view this all as we have to believe that which makes us constantly joyous, then how do we define the doctrine of Christ? This just doesn't feel like a very good message to me.
CV75 Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 6 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Quoting from OP's quote of President Nelson: Is there truth here? If so, how is it joy was interrupted when polygamy was introduced? How is it that joy was interrupted when the philosophies of men helped introduce the priesthood ban? If we are truly to view this all as we have to believe that which makes us constantly joyous, then how do we define the doctrine of Christ? This just doesn't feel like a very good message to me. Alma 31:38 teaches that all manner of afflictions are swallowed up in the joy of Christ. In the Church, we are to provide so that none hunger or thirst, and we are to strengthen each other in the faith so that all afflictions that can be suffered are swallowed up in the joy of Christ (this is part of enduring to the end). So if we are afflicted by something we don't understand or agree with about the Church teachings or requirements, our joy in Christ can help us endure well. This is why the fundamental principles of our religion are what they are (per Joseph Smith's quote, "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it..."). Certainly people were unhappy with past practices and policies (or how they were administered), as they are today with current practices and policies. Some make themselves unhappy with past practices today. I've known people who confessed that despite their unhappiness with issue X, it was swallowed up in the greater comfort and assurance the Lord provided them to be baptized and keep their covenants. The doctrine of Christ is found in the Book of Mormon (3 Nephi 11, Nephi 31, 32, etc.). I don't think being afflicted by a point of doctrine we don't fully understand is necessarily opposition, or requires we oppose it, or means that we oppose the doctrine as Korihor did. Plus, in his heyday, Korihor was far from being afflicted! Once we have tasted the joy of the Lord, yes, opposing Him will naturally bring unhappiness, but no affliction need destroy that joy. 1
stemelbow Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 9 minutes ago, CV75 said: Alma 31:38 teaches that all manner of afflictions are swallowed up in the joy of Christ. In the Church, we are to provide so that none hunger or thirst, and we are to strengthen each other in the faith so that all afflictions that can be suffered are swallowed up in the joy of Christ (this is part of enduring to the end). So if we are afflicted by something we don't understand or agree with about the Church teachings or requirements, our joy in Christ can help us endure well. This is why the fundamental principles of our religion are what they are (per Joseph Smith's quote, "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it..."). Certainly people were unhappy with past practices and policies (or how they were administered), as they are today with current practices and policies. Some make themselves unhappy with past practices today. I've known people who confessed that despite their unhappiness with issue X, it was swallowed up in the greater comfort and assurance the Lord provided them to be baptized and keep their covenants. The doctrine of Christ is found in the Book of Mormon (3 Nephi 11, Nephi 31, 32, etc.). I don't think being afflicted by a point of doctrine we don't fully understand is necessarily opposition, or requires we oppose it, or means that we oppose the doctrine as Korihor did. Plus, in his heyday, Korihor was far from being afflicted! Once we have tasted the joy of the Lord, yes, opposing Him will naturally bring unhappiness, but no affliction need destroy that joy. Thanks for the response. The quote I'm considering coming from Pres Nelson suggests that joy should not be interrupted by teachings. Which I'm taking to suggest our teachings should all bring us joy, not misery. But sadly in times past misery was a result of some of our teachings. Take polygamy or the priesthood ban for obvious examples. Were we wrong about those teachings because they brought misery to people and thus interrupted our joy? That may be the case. What else do we have that is an introduction to misery? Our teachings and policies regarding homosexuality? Sure. it seems that way. I get the notion that believing in Christ can help you deal with difficulties. but that's not what I'm interested in discussing and it doesn't seem to be what President Nelson is talking about.
california boy Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 18 hours ago, mfbukowski said: To me, Mormonism is absolutely the best out there- for me it explains everything in ways I can understand perfectly. It gives me full peace and joy. I love it with all my heart, I love the people, I love the fellowship, I love the temple - I love every part of it and I can give, in my opinion, totally reasonable explanations for every doctrine and belief and how they work for me in my life But if it confuses you or is not your path, if your views have been poisoned by erroneous presentations of Mormonism, you must find the way God or your unconscious- whatever it is that gives you peace and joy in your life- leads you. I don't care how people characterize Mormonism or go by dogmas and odd beliefs like thinking that using face cards are of the devil, etc. Find your own way- make your own version and don't worry about what silly people say. This is YOUR journey, not theirs, YOUR joy and peace, not theirs. Just shrug it off. You find silly people saying silly things all the time! That is what the internet is for! Sift through the garbage until you find the diamonds and construct your own way guided by those feelings of peace and joy and seek the unspeakable contact with the infinite. THAT is what it is all about. I think this is a very eloquent explanation of why Mormonism works really well for so many people. And for those that have this kind of response to the church, I strongly encourage them to embrace the church and enjoy all of the feelings and relationships that you express. But, I think you will also acknowledge that for many, there is nothing but struggle and unhappiness in trying to fit Mormonism into their lives. It can be a number of things that cause that disconnect. Troubling doctrine, how the church treats different segments of society, political actions of the church, feelings of guilt that there is no basis for other than the church telling you should feel guilty. Being gay, being a single mother, being black, mothers working, etc. The list can be as long as the many individuals that struggle with their membership in the church. And then their is the faith issue. Feeling guilty because one finds the Book of Mormon or Bible or The Book of Abraham or any other scripture to be uncredible. Oddly enough, members of the church often quote scripture as a way to try and solve that disbelief. There are issues concerning historical teachings that were misleading and sometimes outright false. Some feel a lack of honesty in embracing a religious that has practiced deceiving practices. And when they do, they are made to feel guilty for doing so. Maybe guilt is the wrong word, but certainly it is a feeling that you just don't fit in like you are suppose to. I think that you can acknowledge that while Mormonism fits so completely in your life, for others, the path of Mormonism is not their path. I can tell you with certainty in my life, that I found that same kind of peace and joy only by separating myself from the church. "Joy and Spiritual Survival" is often found outside the walls of the church. It doesn't mean that God is not there also. To whom shall we go? as Elder Ballard asks: The answer is simply a different path than what the church offers. Those that find the church to work so well in their lives have a hard time understanding how anyone can find any joy, peace and happiness outside of the church. Just as someone outside the church can not figure out how a person could possibly be happy with a life within the Mormon religion. The path may not be as clear or as well defined as Mormonism is, but that is mostly because one has to find the path on their own and not have it laid out before them by church leaders telling them what that path is.
mfbukowski Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 (edited) 34 minutes ago, california boy said: I think this is a very eloquent explanation of why Mormonism works really well for so many people. And for those that have this kind of response to the church, I strongly encourage them to embrace the church and enjoy all of the feelings and relationships that you express. But, I think you will also acknowledge that for many, there is nothing but struggle and unhappiness in trying to fit Mormonism into their lives. It can be a number of things that cause that disconnect. Troubling doctrine, how the church treats different segments of society, political actions of the church, feelings of guilt that there is no basis for other than the church telling you should feel guilty. Being gay, being a single mother, being black, mothers working, etc. The list can be as long as the many individuals that struggle with their membership in the church. And then their is the faith issue. Feeling guilty because one finds the Book of Mormon or Bible or The Book of Abraham or any other scripture to be uncredible. Oddly enough, members of the church often quote scripture as a way to try and solve that disbelief. There are issues concerning historical teachings that were misleading and sometimes outright false. Some feel a lack of honesty in embracing a religious that has practiced deceiving practices. And when they do, they are made to feel guilty for doing so. Maybe guilt is the wrong word, but certainly it is a feeling that you just don't fit in like you are suppose to. I think that you can acknowledge that while Mormonism fits so completely in your life, for others, the path of Mormonism is not their path. I can tell you with certainty in my life, that I found that same kind of peace and joy only by separating myself from the church. "Joy and Spiritual Survival" is often found outside the walls of the church. It doesn't mean that God is not there also. To whom shall we go? as Elder Ballard asks: The answer is simply a different path than what the church offers. Those that find the church to work so well in their lives have a hard time understanding how anyone can find any joy, peace and happiness outside of the church. Just as someone outside the church can not figure out how a person could possibly be happy with a life within the Mormon religion. The path may not be as clear or as well defined as Mormonism is, but that is mostly because one has to find the path on their own and not have it laid out before them by church leaders telling them what that path is. Sure. I have said the same here many times before. But part of moving on is actually doing so. Obsessing about a failed relationship never leads to joy. Can one claim to have found joy when one speaks only about failed loves and their faults? Edited October 4, 2016 by mfbukowski
california boy Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 25 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Sure. I have said the same here many times before. But part of moving on is actually doing so. Obsessing about a failed relationship never leads to joy. Can one claim to have found joy when one speaks only about failed loves and their faults? I think the flaw in your thinking is that when someone "moves on" they are abandoning all of what they have learned in the church. I don't think that is true. There are large blocks of church teachings that are still a very big part of my understanding and belief. I find listening to you and other members of the church express their beliefs to be very interesting, Sometimes I challenge those beliefs from my perspective. It is because I want to understand how you can arrive at a completely different answer than what I have. Understanding and exploring the ideas of others that disagree with me is something that I believe contributes to my growth and understanding as an individual. I don't learn all that much from surrounding myself with only those that agree with me. Is that really that hard to understand? 1
CV75 Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 2 hours ago, stemelbow said: Thanks for the response. The quote I'm considering coming from Pres Nelson suggests that joy should not be interrupted by teachings. Which I'm taking to suggest our teachings should all bring us joy, not misery. But sadly in times past misery was a result of some of our teachings. Take polygamy or the priesthood ban for obvious examples. Were we wrong about those teachings because they brought misery to people and thus interrupted our joy? That may be the case. What else do we have that is an introduction to misery? Our teachings and policies regarding homosexuality? Sure. it seems that way. I get the notion that believing in Christ can help you deal with difficulties. but that's not what I'm interested in discussing and it doesn't seem to be what President Nelson is talking about. The first line in the OP is: “As we diligently focus on the Savior and then follow His pattern of focusing on joy, we need to avoid those things that can interrupt our joy.” So first we focus on the Savior, and then we follow His pattern of focusing on joy. If I recall, elsewhere in the talk, the Savior followed this pattern even in His suffering, where He kept the focus on the purpose that men might have joy. According to this, the things that would interrupt the kind of joy Elder Nelson is referring to are a focus on anti-Christ (or the like) and following a pattern of misery (which is wickedness). Korihor (and the like) are antichrists. Wickedness is not accompanied by faith. Antichrists seek to interrupt the rejoicing of the saints in Christ. They do this by perverting His words and teaching that there shall be (or is) no Christ; no purpose in having faith in Him, His kingdom or teachings; and so forth. On the other hand, implementing Church practices and policies never had the aim of interrupting the rejoicing of the saints in Christ, and never perverted His words or promoted the denial of faith in Him. 2
mfbukowski Posted October 5, 2016 Posted October 5, 2016 10 hours ago, california boy said: I think the flaw in your thinking is that when someone "moves on" they are abandoning all of what they have learned in the church. I don't think that is true. There are large blocks of church teachings that are still a very big part of my understanding and belief. I find listening to you and other members of the church express their beliefs to be very interesting, Sometimes I challenge those beliefs from my perspective. It is because I want to understand how you can arrive at a completely different answer than what I have. Understanding and exploring the ideas of others that disagree with me is something that I believe contributes to my growth and understanding as an individual. I don't learn all that much from surrounding myself with only those that agree with me. Is that really that hard to understand? No it's not hard to understand but it is totally different from the way I would do things. Sorry if you found it offensive. After I reject a philosophy I do not return to it or bother with challenging it further. It's just a different way of doing things. 1
Maestrophil Posted January 21, 2017 Posted January 21, 2017 I have first hand experience (as I am sure many others here do too) of experiencing misery and Joy simultaneously. At those times I was unhappy, but the bedrock of my emotion was Joy. Darkness, confusion, fear all present - but a very deep abiding peace and Joy was under it all due to my belief in Christ and his sustaining atonement. 2
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