Storm Rider Posted September 28, 2016 Posted September 28, 2016 1 hour ago, california boy said: I certainly do not really understand what it would be like to be transgendered. It must be horrible. That confusion would only be made worse when people think that because someone is transgender, they mean to do harm to anyone. I am all for policies that prevent evil people from taking advantage of other individuals. Who isn't? Just what policy would you suggest? Would preventing transgenders from using bathrooms solve the problem? Like you said, neither of us can recognize evil people on sight. This topic is often an affront to the transgendered because people are making policies that have no value towards public safety. There is no value to public safety simply by not allowing transgendered individuals from using the bathroom. They are policies not based on any facts, but totally based in fear and prejudice of someone because they are different. It is already against the law for a man to dress up as a woman and commit a crime. NO LAW can be written to stop that from happening. Does any rational person really think banning transgender's from using bathrooms is going to some how magically put an invisible forcefield around bathrooms that will prevent some guy with evil intent to commit a crime? Why would a criminal bother to wear a dress? How does that help him commit the crime? It only takes seconds to walk into a woman's restroom. Does wearing a dress really help that much? The heels and trying to get out of some dress alone would probably be more of a deterrent. Heck, it makes more sense to pass a law requiring all criminals to wear a dress and heels in order to commit a crime. The victim has a much better chance of getting away if we passed such a law. Think about that. I don't see problems of danger coming from the transgendered community; there may certainly be problems of discomfort and awkwardness, but that is another issue. The challenge is how to develop a policy that respects those that are transgendered and yet still not open the door to another potential problem from those that abuse that same policy. I hear your position, but when the abuse does happen who does that individual look to for taking responsibility? Will it be all those that said it would never happen and could not happen simply because of the policy? A change is needed, but I don't know the best direction for that change. At the end of the day the women on this board are not complaining and they might be the best judges since if a problem develops it is women who will suffer. All of the emotion that went into the rape culture and yet this is quietly, swept under the rug. I find that strange.
Storm Rider Posted September 28, 2016 Posted September 28, 2016 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: Oh I can just see it now. Hello Bishop I'm transsexual and I would like to visit your Ward tomarrow. Oh and by way I may have to pee pee tomorrow too. That is a good caricature of what it would be. It is odd that I thought of something more along the lines of, "Hi, I am the bishop of this congregation. What do you know about the restored gospel of Jesus Christ? Is this a way of life that interests you? Please tell me what being a transgendered person means to you? This congregation has little experience in these matters, how can we best make you feel comfortable? Do you feel a need to be introduced as a transgendered individual or do you prefer something else? What reactions have you had from straight people during your life? Based on our conversation together I find you to be sincere in your desire to learn more about being a disciple of Jesus Christ and you are welcome in our congregation. Should this desire grow and become even more serious then we will be talking again. Is that acceptable?" Some of the responses are pretty infantile and lacking in any understanding of either side of this situation. There are a number of questions that can be asked and expanded upon given the quality of the responses and as led by the Spirit. Surprisingly, I never mentioned anything about peeing. Shocking isn't! 1
thesometimesaint Posted September 28, 2016 Posted September 28, 2016 Do you normally go into the Ward bathroom just to look around?
carbon dioxide Posted September 28, 2016 Posted September 28, 2016 On 9/26/2016 at 11:38 PM, Duncan said: would you be comfortable if someone were to stare at you, in the washroom no less, maybe thinking you were transgendered? I can't imagine it would be comfortable for them either It does not require one to stare. In most cases, it does not require too much time and observation. Men and women body types are different. Men are usually taller than women. Having a 6'4" person in the women bathroom is going to naturally cause someone to take a second look. There are not that many women who are that tall.
carbon dioxide Posted September 28, 2016 Posted September 28, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Until 1978 skin coloration was the essential characteristic. Are we now going to check birth certificates against presenting genitalia at the Temple for essential characteristics? . A person born as a male will be resurrected with a male body. A person born as a women will be resurrected with a female body. God is not going to change the resurrection to anyone according to what that person identifies with. God created male and female and there is no confusion to God one who is male and who is female. Edited September 28, 2016 by carbon dioxide
carbon dioxide Posted September 28, 2016 Posted September 28, 2016 I don't have a problem with a transgender coming to church. However I will address them according to the sex that they are born as and not their identity. If Bruce Jenner was to join the Church, I would always address him as "brother Jenner." I would never call him sister.
Gray Posted September 28, 2016 Posted September 28, 2016 11 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: A person born as a male will be resurrected with a male body. A person born as a women will be resurrected with a female body. God is not going to change the resurrection to anyone according to what that person identifies with. God created male and female and there is no confusion to God one who is male and who is female. And a person born with ambiguous gender will be resurrected as... ? 1
Gray Posted September 28, 2016 Posted September 28, 2016 31 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: It does not require one to stare. In most cases, it does not require too much time and observation. Men and women body types are different. Men are usually taller than women. Having a 6'4" person in the women bathroom is going to naturally cause someone to take a second look. There are not that many women who are that tall. I know a woman who is about that tall. Perhaps she could go through some kind of pre-screening before being allowed in? 1
HappyJackWagon Posted September 28, 2016 Posted September 28, 2016 9 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: A person born as a male will be resurrected with a male body. A person born as a women will be resurrected with a female body. God is not going to change the resurrection to anyone according to what that person identifies with. God created male and female and there is no confusion to God one who is male and who is female. You seem to have it figured out. So I guess it's impossible that biology and spirit could get mixed up at birth, right? There's no possibility that a female could be born with male parts or vice versa...or even both. That would be impossible, right? Quote I don't have a problem with a transgender coming to church. However I will address them according to the sex that they are born as and not their identity. If Bruce Jenner was to join the Church, I would always address him as "brother Jenner." I would never call him sister. I don't think you have to worry about many transgender individuals joining the church. 1- because church policy prohibits it and 2- few transgender people would be interested in joining a church where the kind of hostility you illustrate is accepted. 3
california boy Posted September 29, 2016 Posted September 29, 2016 5 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: A person born as a male will be resurrected with a male body. A person born as a women will be resurrected with a female body. God is not going to change the resurrection to anyone according to what that person identifies with. God created male and female and there is no confusion to God one who is male and who is female. Wow you do have all the answers. Can you tell me how a person who is born hemaphrodie (has both male and female genitilia) is resurrected? Are they male or female? And since there is no confusion to God, is He creating hermaphrodies just to mess with us?
BCSpace Posted September 29, 2016 Posted September 29, 2016 (edited) 11 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: Until 1978 skin coloration was the essential characteristic. Are we now going to check birth certificates against presenting genitalia at the Temple for essential characteristics? . Skin color was never an essential characteristic. On the other hand, as you well know but prefer to pretend you don't, the official doctrine of the Church is: "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." The Family: A Proclamation To The World Edited September 29, 2016 by BCSpace 1
california boy Posted September 29, 2016 Posted September 29, 2016 20 hours ago, Storm Rider said: I don't see problems of danger coming from the transgendered community; there may certainly be problems of discomfort and awkwardness, but that is another issue. The challenge is how to develop a policy that respects those that are transgendered and yet still not open the door to another potential problem from those that abuse that same policy. I hear your position, but when the abuse does happen who does that individual look to for taking responsibility? Will it be all those that said it would never happen and could not happen simply because of the policy? A change is needed, but I don't know the best direction for that change. At the end of the day the women on this board are not complaining and they might be the best judges since if a problem develops it is women who will suffer. All of the emotion that went into the rape culture and yet this is quietly, swept under the rug. I find that strange. Oh great. Another policy solving an nonexistent problem. I can hardly wait to hear what this new policy will be. And how about this new concept. When abuse happens, how about looking towards the person who actually did the abuse to take responsibility rather than blame an entire group of people. Just an idea. 3
Storm Rider Posted September 29, 2016 Posted September 29, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, california boy said: Oh great. Another policy solving an nonexistent problem. I can hardly wait to hear what this new policy will be. And how about this new concept. When abuse happens, how about looking towards the person who actually did the abuse to take responsibility rather than blame an entire group of people. Just an idea. Cal, step back and breathe. Consider that we are changing a social norm - men and women going to the bathroom in separate rooms. The proposed change allows men dressed as women to enter a woman's room. With this proposed change we allow any man dressed as a woman to enter without questions or concern. Any man - not just transgendered males. This has a increases the potential for women to lose a degree of safety in place that was previously their space.o You stated "Another policy solving an nonexistent problem." Please tell me why we have a firestorm nationally about a "rape culture". Do you in your most conservative projection not think this will affect women in the least? That no rapist or pervert will ever think to dress up as a woman for the sole purpose to enter a woman's restroom to do anything from taking pictures to a range of much worse things. Seriously, you actually think it is a NONEXISTENT PROBLEM? Ignorance or naivety are seldom a foundation upon which to build an argument. This topic addresses the national issue not simply church buildings. I was not discussing a church policy, but a policy, a set of new social norms, for the nation. Edited September 29, 2016 by Storm Rider 1
Johnnie Cake Posted September 29, 2016 Posted September 29, 2016 (edited) 20 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: A person born as a male will be resurrected with a male body. A person born as a women will be resurrected with a female body. God is not going to change the resurrection to anyone according to what that person identifies with. God created male and female and there is no confusion to God one who is male and who is female. So will a morphodite be resurrected as a morphodite? Edited September 29, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
thesometimesaint Posted September 29, 2016 Posted September 29, 2016 21 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: A person born as a male will be resurrected with a male body. A person born as a women will be resurrected with a female body. God is not going to change the resurrection to anyone according to what that person identifies with. God created male and female and there is no confusion to God one who is male and who is female. He seems to make quite a few mistakes. SEE http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/the-astonishing-village-where-little-girls-turn-into-boys-aged-1/
thesometimesaint Posted September 29, 2016 Posted September 29, 2016 13 hours ago, BCSpace said: Skin color was never an essential characteristic. On the other hand, as you well know but prefer to pretend you don't, the official doctrine of the Church is: "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose." The Family: A Proclamation To The World Blacks born under the curse of Cain. SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_and_mark_of_Cain Blacks can only be servants in Celestial Kingdom. SEE Elder Mark E. Peterson said, " If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get a celestial resurrection. He will get a place in the celestial glory."
Johnnie Cake Posted September 29, 2016 Posted September 29, 2016 8 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Blacks born under the curse of Cain. SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_and_mark_of_Cain Blacks can only be servants in Celestial Kingdom. SEE Elder Mark E. Peterson said, " If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get a celestial resurrection. He will get a place in the celestial glory." You can always count on Mark E. Peterson to say something offensive to modern sensibilities...
california boy Posted September 29, 2016 Posted September 29, 2016 5 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Cal, step back and breathe. Consider that we are changing a social norm - men and women going to the bathroom in separate rooms. The proposed change allows men dressed as women to enter a woman's room. With this proposed change we allow any man dressed as a woman to enter without questions or concern. Any man - not just transgendered males. This has a increases the potential for women to lose a degree of safety in place that was previously their space.o You stated "Another policy solving an nonexistent problem." Please tell me why we have a firestorm nationally about a "rape culture". Do you in your most conservative projection not think this will affect women in the least? That no rapist or pervert will ever think to dress up as a woman for the sole purpose to enter a woman's restroom to do anything from taking pictures to a range of much worse things. Seriously, you actually think it is a NONEXISTENT PROBLEM? Ignorance or naivety are seldom a foundation upon which to build an argument. This topic addresses the national issue not simply church buildings. I was not discussing a church policy, but a policy, a set of new social norms, for the nation. I will repeat myself. Oh great. Another policy solving a nonexistent problem. I can hardly wait to hear what this new policy will be. Give me one good reason why a man needs to dress up as a woman in order to commit a crime in a restroom. If a man intends to commit a violent crime in a restroom, just how long does it take him to open the door and walk in?? How does putting a dress on help? And since you think there must be a problem in need of a policy, can you tell me ONE instance where a man dressed up as a woman and entered a bathroom in an LDS chapel and committed a crime???? Another policy solving a nonexistent problem unless you can come up with some data on this "problem". I am all ears. 1
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