Manti Temple Site Dedicated by Moroni?

[bluebell]

I was subbing in Primary a few weeks ago and the music leader was focusing on pioneers and the temple.  As part of her lesson she quickly talked about how Moroni had dedicated the spot where the Manti temple was built.  She moved on to other things but that stuck with me because i had never heard that before.

I looked it up on lds.org and found a small article that had been published in the Ensign in 1978 where this is mentioned.  It says "Brigham Young announced the temple site 25 June 1875 and dedicated the site on 25 April 1877. Earlier that same morning, he had taken Warren S. Snow with him to the southeast corner of the temple site and told him, “Here is the spot where the Prophet Moroni stood and dedicated this piece of land for a Temple site, and that is the reason why the location is made here, and we can’t move it from this spot.”

Has anyone else heard of this?  Does it have implications for all those different theories that everyone's always fighting over concerning where the BOM took place?  I just thought it was really interesting.

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I was subbing in Primary a few weeks ago and the music leader was focusing on pioneers and the temple.  As part of her lesson she quickly talked about how Moroni had dedicated the spot where the Manti temple was built.  She moved on to other things but that stuck with me because i had never heard that before.

I looked it up on lds.org and found a small article that had been published in the Ensign in 1978 where this is mentioned.  It says "Brigham Young announced the temple site 25 June 1875 and dedicated the site on 25 April 1877. Earlier that same morning, he had taken Warren S. Snow with him to the southeast corner of the temple site and told him, “Here is the spot where the Prophet Moroni stood and dedicated this piece of land for a Temple site, and that is the reason why the location is made here, and we can’t move it from this spot.”

Has anyone else heard of this?  Does it have implications for all those different theories that everyone's always fighting over concerning where the BOM took place?  I just thought it was really interesting.

I heard this a long, long time ago. 

I don't think it has any bearing on Book of Mormon geography as Moroni had plenty of time between the end of the Nephite civilization and when to buried the plates to wander pretty much anywhere.

[Calm]

What Fisher said.

There is a map of Moroni's alleged travels if you are interested.

[bluebell]

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

What Fisher said.

There is a map of Moroni's alleged travels if you are interested.

Definitely interested!  How would a map of that even be created??

[Atheist Mormon]

47 minutes ago, bluebell said:

 

Manti Temple Site Dedicated by Moroni?

I like hearing that....I was married there.....

[Duncan]

Check this 

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I was subbing in Primary a few weeks ago and the music leader was focusing on pioneers and the temple.  As part of her lesson she quickly talked about how Moroni had dedicated the spot where the Manti temple was built.  She moved on to other things but that stuck with me because i had never heard that before.

I looked it up on lds.org and found a small article that had been published in the Ensign in 1978 where this is mentioned.  It says "Brigham Young announced the temple site 25 June 1875 and dedicated the site on 25 April 1877. Earlier that same morning, he had taken Warren S. Snow with him to the southeast corner of the temple site and told him, “Here is the spot where the Prophet Moroni stood and dedicated this piece of land for a Temple site, and that is the reason why the location is made here, and we can’t move it from this spot.”

Has anyone else heard of this?  Does it have implications for all those different theories that everyone's always fighting over concerning where the BOM took place?  I just thought it was really interesting.

check this out! http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/11/18/moronis-purported-rambles/

What I have heard though is a guy in our ward Grandma was present at it and she apparently heard some kind of an Angelic Choir and she thought she was late and ran but when she got to the Temple she wasn't late and heard this choir sing thing

[mapman]

That Keepapitchinin post that Duncan linked to is really good and goes into where the story came from. The story goes that Brigham Young had said that the site of the Manti temple had been dedicated by Moroni, but there aren't any reliable sources to show that he actually said that. The map that shows Moroni's travels seems to operate under the assumption that he dedicated the sites of all of the temples that existed at the time, as it has him travel from Central America, through Utah, then back to Missouri, Illinois, and Ohio.

Good photographs of both versions of the map can be found here on the church's website: https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE6216601

Edited August 10, 2016 by mapman

[ALarson]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

What Fisher said.

There is a map of Moroni's alleged travels if you are interested.

 

1 hour ago, mapman said:

Good photographs of both versions of the map can be found here on the church's website: https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE6216601

Who drew this map?

[ALarson]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

Definitely interested!  How would a map of that even be created??

Here is what I found....

First this:

Quote

 

That Moroni dedicated the Manti Temple site is one of the few statements the Brethren have made connecting a Book of Mormon figure with a specific current place and action. This aids us in documenting one of Moroni’s travels and priesthood assignments. Another reference happened when William McBride, patriarch from the Richfield Utah Stake, spoke at a prayer meeting in St. George in January 1881. After recalling many experiences from the Nauvoo period and quoting the Prophet Joseph Smith on many issues, Patriarch McBride referred to the Route the old Nephites took travelling to Cumorah from the south and south west; of having to bury their tr[e]asures as they journeyed and finally burying the Records and precious things in the Hill Cumorah; of Moroni dedicating the Temple site of what we now call St. George, Nauvoo, Jackson Co., Kirtland, and others we know not of as yet. (Walker 2:525–26)

 

Then this about the map:

Quote

 

Several years ago, I came across two copies of a map in the Archives Division of the Historical Department of the Church relative to Moroni’s North American journeys (see Figures 1 and 2). On the back of the map in Figure 1 is written the following:

A chart, and description of Moroni’s travels through this country. Got it from Br. Robert ****son. He got it from Patriarch Wm. McBride at Richfield in the Sevier and also from Andrew M. Hamilton of same place. And they got it from Joseph Smith the Prophet.

 

So, was this map drawn by Joseph Smith (do we know)?

( Here's the link to the info above:  https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon-fourth-nephi-through-moroni-zion-destruction/18-moroni-last-nephite-prophets )

[Duncan]

25 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Here is what I found....

First this:

Then this about the map:

So, was this map drawn by Joseph Smith (do we know)?

( Here's the link to the info above:  https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon-fourth-nephi-through-moroni-zion-destruction/18-moroni-last-nephite-prophets )

Wanting to check out the Charles Walker reference but I could only get his online diary up to 1879 and not 1881, so close!!!!

[mapman]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

 

Who drew this map?

As far as I know all we know about its provenance is that note on the back of the map (image number 4 in the link I provided earlier). It claims it originally comes from Joseph Smith. This seems highly unlikely because I don't think the name Arizona existed when Joseph Smith alive (the map has the "sand hills in south part of Arizona" as one of the stops Moroni made). The only thing that I think could have been inspired by Joseph Smith would be that it implies that Moroni and the Nephites came from Central America, which is apparently what Joseph Smith believed by the end of his life.

There are other stories of people claiming that Joseph Smith drew a map in the ground to explain to people where the Saints would go after being driven from Nauvoo, so maybe that story got conflated with the map, but who knows.

[mapman]

double post

Edited August 11, 2016 by mapman

[MDalby]

Moroni had the great privilege, as he walked across this American Continent, of finding a place and designating the place where the St. George temple was to be built. He also designated where the Manti Temple was to be. And it’s been written that he designated Kirtland and Nauvoo and probably others.
(Elder Glen L. Rudd, The Angel Moroni, Brigham Young University–Idaho Devotional, March 11, 2003)

Manti Temple:
At a conference held in Ephraim, Sanpete County, June 25th, 1875, nearly all the speakers expressed their feelings to have a temple built in Sanpete County, and gave their views as to what point and where to build it, and to show the union that existed, Elder Daniel H. Wells said 'Manti,' George Q. Cannon, Brigham Young, Jr., John Taylor, Orson Hyde, Erastus Snow, Franklin D. Richards, Lorenzo Young, and A. M. Musser said 'Manti stone quarry.' I have given the names in the order in which they spoke. At 4 p. m. that day President Brigham Young said: 'The Temple should be built on Manti stone quarry.' Early on the morning of April 25th, 1877, President Brigham Young asked Brother Warren S. Snow to go with him to the Temple hill. Brother Snow says: 'We two were alone: President Young took me to the spot where the Temple was to stand; we went to the southeast corner, and President Young said: "Here is the spot where the prophet Moroni stood and dedicated this piece of land for a Temple site, and that is the reason why the location is made here, and we can't move it from this spot; and if you and I are the only persons that come here at high noon today, we will dedicate this ground.
(Life of Heber C Kimball, p. 436)

St George Temple:
I am 82 years old tomorrow. I am the only living person, so far as I know, who heard and saw what I am about to relate. At the time of which we shall speak, I was a lad of 11 years, all-seeing and all-hearing, and drove a team hitched to a scraper.
Brother Brigham Young had written to Robert Gardner, president of the stake high council. In this letter he expressed a wish that a temple be built in St. George. Also, the Brother Gardner select a few leading brethren, and, as a group, visit sites where it might be best to build the Temple. This they did. Visiting spots each thought might be best. They could not agree, and so informed President Young.
President Young, arriving later, somewhat impatiently chided them, and at the same time asked them to get into their wagons, or whatever else they had, and with him find a location. To the south they finally stopped. "But, Brother Young," protested the men, "This land is boggy. After a storm, and for several months of the year, no one can drive across the land without horses and wagons sinking way down. There is no place to build a foundation." "We will make a foundation," said President Young.
Later on while plowing and scraping where the foundation was to be, my horse's leg broke through the ground into a spring of water. The brethren then wanted to move the foundation line 12 feet to the south, so that the spring of water would be on the outside of the Temple. "Not so," replied President Young. "We will wall it up and leave it here for some future use, but we cannot move the foundation. This spot was dedicated by the Nephites. They could not build it, but we can and will build it for them."
(David Henry Cannon Jr.)

St. George, Nauvoo, Jackson Co., Kirtland and others:
On January 26, 1881, Father William McBride, patriarch from Richfield, on the Sevier River, spoke at a prayer meeting held in St. George. He recalled many experiences from the Nauvoo period, quoting the prophet Joseph Smith on several issues. “Father” McBride also “spoke of the Route the old Nephites took traveling to Cumorah from the South and Southwest; of having to bury their treasures as the journeyed and finally burying the Records and precious things in the Hill Cumorah.” The patriarch spoke “of Moroni dedicating the Temple sties of what we now call St. George, Nauvoo, Jackson Co., Kirtland and others we know not of yet.” (In A. Karl Larson and Katharine Miles Larson eds., Diary of Charles Lowell Walker, vol. 2 [Logan, Utah: Utah State University Press, 1979] pp. 524-526.)

 

 

[sdc999]

I was there just the other day with my BIL and SIL.  I know.  What's an exmormon like me doing at a place like that?  I get along great with my inlaws now and we were vacationing a little south of there.  My wife detoured our trip back to SLC airport so they could see the temple.   The conversation about why Moroni was not on the temple came up.  No google info.  Any ideas I can forward back to them.  I did see that there are only a handful that do not have Moroni on top. 

[Calm]

Looks to me like it is mainly timing (they were built before the SLC temple) or style (Mesa, Cardston, Hawaii).  Don't know about the others though.

http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/articles/facts/

Angel Moroni Statues

Ten (10) temples do not have an angel Moroni. They are the St. George Utah, Logan Utah, Manti Utah, Laie Hawaii, Cardston Alberta, Mesa Arizona, Hamilton New Zealand, Oakland California, Paris France, and Kinshasa Democratic Republic of the CongoTemples.

Several temples have received angels after their dedications. The first was the Idaho Falls Idaho Temple, which had an angel Moroni statue added in 1983, almost 40 years after its dedication, at the request of the president and other officials of the temple. As a part of renovation projects in the 2000s, the Church added angel Moroni statues to several of the originally statueless temples including the Freiberg Germany (2001), Ogden Utah (2002), Provo Utah (2003), São Paulo Brazil (2003), Tokyo Japan (2004), Bern Switzerland(2005), and London England (2008) Temples.

Both the Sydney Australia Temple and Boston Massachusetts Temple were dedicated without angel Moroni statues due to pending litigation. In both cases, rulings allowed for the angels to be installed about a year after their respective dedications.

The Church added a spire and angel Moroni statue to the Manhattan New York Templefour months after its dedication. These features were not part of the original design because the temple was built within an existing Church-owned building that was not designed as a temple.

The Monticello Utah Temple is the only temple to have had a white angel Moroni. White enamel-covered fiberglass statues were to decorate the "smaller and remote-area" temples as conceived by President Gordon B. Hinckley, but the Monticello statue proved too difficult to see, especially in cloudy weather. It was replaced about a year later by a larger, traditional gold-leafed statue, which remained the standard. The white statue was gold leafed and installed atop the Columbus Ohio Temple.

The Anchorage Alaska Temple, Bismarck North Dakota Temple, Columbus Ohio Temple, Kona Hawaii Temple, and Caracas Venezuela Temple feature angel Moroni statues holding a scroll—a design originally created for use on the "smaller and remote-area" temples as conceived by President Gordon B. Hinckley.

Only five temples feature an angel Moroni statue holding the gold plates. They are the Los Angeles California Temple, Washington D.C. Temple, Seattle Washington Temple, Jordan River Utah Temple, and México City México Temple.

A short time after receiving a review of the design of the Atlanta Georgia Temple from the Faith & Values section of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, the Church revised its plans for the temple to include a spire and angel Moroni. Nearly every temple built since has featured an angel Moroni statue.

In the early 1930s, a replica of the Salt Lake Temple angel Moroni was fashioned by Torleif Knaphus for the Washington D.C. Chapel. The statue was removed in 1976 when the chapel was sold (currently owned by the Unification Church) and is now on display in the Museum of Church History and Art. It is owned by the LDS Motion Picture Studio and was used in the filming of Mountain of the Lord. Castings of this statue have since been made and installed atop the Atlanta Georgia Temple (since replaced), Idaho Falls Idaho Temple, and Boston Massachusetts Temple.

The Nauvoo Illinois Temple, The Hague Netherlands Temple, and Boston Massachusetts Temple participated in a tri-temple setting of the angel Moroni on the 178th anniversary of the day that Moroni first appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith.

The Nauvoo Temple was the first to have an angel (though not identified as Moroni), and it is the only temple to have a horizontal or flying angel (which functioned as a weathervane). The angel was inspired by Revelations 14:6, which says, "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people."

The first temple to have a standing angel Moroni was the Salt Lake Temple.

Not all temples have an east-facing angel Moroni statue. In fact, the angels on some temples face nearly due west because of lot orientation or the placement of spires including the Seattle Washington Temple, Manila Philippines Temple, Taipei Taiwan Temple, Spokane Washington Temple, Nauvoo Illinois Temple, Manhattan New York Temple, and Star Valley Wyoming Temple.

The trumpets of the angel Moroni statues on the Santiago Chile Temple, Tokyo Japan Temple, and Apia Samoa Temple have been lofted out of Moroni's grasp during earthquakes.

Due to its height and conductivity, it is not unheard of for an angel Moroni statue to be struck by lightning during a thunderstorm just like a lightning rod.

[Calm]

Temples without the Angel Moroni

Not all temples have a figure of the angel Moroni. Some, such as the Laie Hawaii, Mesa Arizona, and Cardston Alberta Temples, were not designed with towers or spires, so they have no angel Moroni. And even though the St. George, Logan, and Manti temples all have towers, they are topped with simple weathervanes rather than the angel Moroni. Some temples have had to delay the placement of the angel Moroni because of building code restrictions. This happened in Boston, Massachusetts, and Sydney, Australia, where figures were added after construction was completed. The only other temples that do not have figures of the angel Moroni are the Hamilton New Zealand and Oakland California Temples.

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2009/11/looking-up-to-moroni?lang=eng

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/07/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

"Yet the Church has no policy regarding the use of statues of the angel Moroni atop temples. The general practice is to use the statue, but there are reasons it may be absent. In certain geographic locations, building codes or use permits restrict use of the statue. The Sydney Australia Temple, for example, originally had no statue because of building restrictions. The statue was added later after permission to do so was granted.

In some areas, a statue may give more ornamentation than desired. In other areas, the statue is absent because a wrong impression may arise from its presence (such as in areas where statues on church buildings are understood to represent objects of worship). Limits imposed by the architectural design of some temples may be another reason; such is the case with the temple to be completed in Vernal, Utah, by converting the old Uintah Stake Tabernacle."

[Johnnie Cake]

On August 10, 2016 at 0:55 PM, bluebell said:

I was subbing in Primary a few weeks ago and the music leader was focusing on pioneers and the temple.  As part of her lesson she quickly talked about how Moroni had dedicated the spot where the Manti temple was built.  She moved on to other things but that stuck with me because i had never heard that before.

I looked it up on lds.org and found a small article that had been published in the Ensign in 1978 where this is mentioned.  It says "Brigham Young announced the temple site 25 June 1875 and dedicated the site on 25 April 1877. Earlier that same morning, he had taken Warren S. Snow with him to the southeast corner of the temple site and told him, “Here is the spot where the Prophet Moroni stood and dedicated this piece of land for a Temple site, and that is the reason why the location is made here, and we can’t move it from this spot.”

Has anyone else heard of this?  Does it have implications for all those different theories that everyone's always fighting over concerning where the BOM took place?  I just thought it was really interesting.

Perhaps we should add this claim to the long list of other youngism's disavowed by the church

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Perhaps we should add this claim to the long list of other youngism's disavowed by the church

It hasn't been disavowed by the church though. 

[Johnnie Cake]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It hasn't been disavowed by the church though. 

Nope...just saying it should...doesn't fit with LGT

[Calm]

No problem with it given he had 36 years to wander.  The map has him starting somewhere in Central America, iirc.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Calm

[hope_for_things]

Mormon legends like this are so fun.  I used to love these as a kid.  How exciting it is to imagine ancient civilizations walking in the same footsteps as we are today, doing things for our benefit, its got a whole mystical wonderful element to it.  This was the Mormonism I was raised on.  These stories that all of the past was set in order and prepared for the culminating importance of these modern days.  Its a very intoxicating message and had me captivated.  

The promise that more ancient records will be found, that God has all of this planned out in advance and that everything is progressing to one final climactic moment that will happen very soon.  Its a very compelling message.  

 

[MDalby]

13 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Nope...just saying it should...doesn't fit with LGT

The quotes about Moroni dedicated temple sites throughout North America definitely strongly supports the LGT

[ALarson]

13 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Nope...just saying it should...doesn't fit with LGT

Here is what it states about the map(s):

 

Quote

 

On the map “land Bountifull [sic]” is listed in “Sentral [sic] America.” The cartographer wrote “starting point” below the reference to Central America. Above the “land Bountifull” is “Sand hills in south part of Arizona,” and above it to the left is “Salt Lake.” To the right is “Independens, Jackson Co, Mo.” and above that is “Adam on Diamon, Davis Co, Mo.” To the right of that is “Nauvoo, Hancock C.Ill.” Below that is “Mound Kinderhook, Pick, Co, Ill, 6 Plates Bell shape were found” (were was was on one copy). Then to the right and above that is “Kirtland, Ohio,” and to the right of that is “Commorre [Cumorah], N.Y.” Below this on the right-hand side of the map is written: “Moroni’s Travels starting from Sentral America to the Sand hills Arizona then to Salt Lake U[tah], T[erritory], then to Adam on Diammon Mo, then to Nauvoo, Ill, then to Independence Mo, then to Kirtland Ohio then to Cumoro NY.”

The second map appears to have been drawn by the same hand and is quite similar to the first, though it twice spells Arizona as Arisony (one “y” has an “a” written over it); “eden” is written near the circle identifying “Independense”; “where adam blessed his posterity” is written near the circle identifying “Adam on Diammon”; the “missisipy river” is listed near Nauvoo; Kirtland is twice misspelled “kertland”; and Cumorah is misspelled “Cunora” and “Cumora.”

It is interesting to note that the brethren mentioned on these documents were contemporaries of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and they credited him with the notion that the travels of Moroni began in the land Bountiful, which was in Central America, and went through the western New York. Why Moroni took the route he did is still without answers. These men stated that the Prophet Joseph believed Bountiful is in Central America while the Hill Cumorah, the burial place of the plates, is in New York State.

 

You can see both maps here (scroll down to the heading "Two Interesting Maps"):

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon-fourth-nephi-through-moroni-zion-destruction/18-moroni-last-nephite-prophets

 

[Johnnie Cake]

ALarson - Wallowing Down Here in my Limited Capacity to Reply from Purgatory: 

I appreciate the access to the link showing the maps...I don't doubt the maps veracity... nor that Joseph Smith held this belief. But I do question that they sync with the LGT as proposed by F.A.I.R.  ergo why the need for 2 Hill Cumorah's as proposed in the LGT?

Edited August 12, 2016 by Johnnie Cake