Indian Ocean Identified as Source for New World Populations

[Rajah Manchou]

A new paper published last month has identified a new source population for the New World: the Onge from the Andamans. Its not the Arabian Peninsula, but its in the same body of water. How on earth did they get to South America?



Its 2016 and they are just now finding that a completely unrecognized (and unexpected) group from the Indian Ocean had somehow made its way to the New World.

Other interesting conclusions from this paper:

• Previous attempts to explain New World founder groups as "East Asian" or "Siberian" are not adequate, admixture with other groups (Andamanese, Han Chinese and Mal'ta) is more likely
• Anzick/Clovis is more genetically similar to Central and South Americans than to North Americans
• Solutrean hypothesis contradicted as Clovis DNA is related to South and Central American DNA and not North American
• Saqqaq/Dorset migrations around 2500 BC-500 BC (same timeframe as Jaredites) across the north as far as Greenland, probably related to Athabascan and Navajo

 

[ksfisher]

15 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

A new paper published last month has identified a new source population for the New World: the Onge from the Andamans. Its not the Arabian Peninsula, but its in the same body of water. How on earth did they get to South America?



Its 2016 and they are just now finding that a completely unrecognized (and unexpected) group from the Indian Ocean had somehow made its way to the New World.

Other interesting conclusions from this paper:

• Anzick/Clovis is more genetically similar to Central and South Americans than to North Americans
• Soutrean hypothesis contradicted as Clovis DNA is related to South and Central American DNA and not North American
• Saqqaq migrations around 2500 BC-500 BC (same timeframe as Jaredites) across the north as far as Greenland, probably related to Athabascan and Navajo

 

I can't find the Onge mentioned in the paper.  Which page are they on?

[Rajah Manchou]

18 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I can't find the Onge mentioned in the paper.  Which page are they on?

The Onge are a living australasian tribe on the Andaman Islands in the Indian Ocean between India and the Malay Peninsula. Any reference to the Andamanese in the paper is a reference to the DNA samples taken from the Onge. You can see the Onge in the first illustration in the paper represented in red.

I think the authors are leaving the possibility open that the ancestors of the Mixe and Quiche of Mesoamerica might have admixed with an australasian source (Population Y) that has not yet been sampled in ancient DNA. But for now, the Mesoamerican groups more closely resemble the Chinese groups.

"The Population Y results suggest that a population that has not yet been sampled with ancient DNA data—one with more Australasian-related ancestry—may also have been present in the broad geographic area to contribute to the founders of Native American founders."

Edited July 29, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[ksfisher]

Ok.  I was doing a ctrl+f search for "onge" that wasn't bringing up anything.  I guess it wasn't searching the illustrations.

[Robert F. Smith]

59 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

....................................................

I think the authors are leaving the possibility open that the ancestors of the Mixe and Quiche of Mesoamerica might have admixed with an australasian source (Population Y) that has not yet been sampled in ancient DNA. But for now, the Mesoamerican groups more closely resemble the Chinese groups.

.........................................................

Was it Quiche (Maya) or Quechua of South America?

[mfbukowski]

I've got an idea

How about if we let science figure out where they came from and then build our BOM geography model based on that since the geography model is irrelevant to the theology anyway?

None of these scientific theories help a Hebrew origin anyway so it is clear we either figure out a way to rationalize it or give up on that and acknowledge that the BOM is a theological book of scripture and not a science text.

It came from somewhere and ended up for Joseph to receive by revelation.  The rest doesn't have much to do with anything.

If you want a historic account, if that actually bothers you, once we agree there were mixed races in the Americas it doesn't matter where they came from as long as 40 or so of those people in the mixed races, by the grace of God, were Hebrew.

Problem resolved.

[Robert F. Smith]

Compare the results in this earlier article:

A. Arnaiz-Villena, J. Moscoso, J.I. Serrano-Vela, J. Martinez-Laso, “The uniqueness of amerindians according to HLA genes and the peopling of the Americas (LA SINGULARIDAD DE LOS AMERINDIOS SEGÚN LOS GENES HLA Y EL POBLAMIENTO DE AMÉRICA),” Inmunología, 25/1 (Enero-Marzo 2006): 13-24, online at http://www.inmunologia.org/Upload/Articles/6/7/678.pdf .

 

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Was it Quiche (Maya) or Quechua of South America?

Ah right, the two groups mentioned on the tree below Anzick are the Mixe and Quechua, not Quiche. I don't know why they mentioned those two but I guess its because they were represented in the sampling.

That's an interesting HLA study. It does seem they were able to predict eleven years ago much of what had been found in last month's paper. I wonder if the South Asian element would be more visible if they ran their tests again with samples from Andamanese and Karitiana. It looks like they did pick up traces of it in the Quechua.

"If Meso and South American Indians come from Asia, they must have originated from a very different Asian people as those existing nowadays, and only a few remains are present in the Quechua population."

These two papers both hint at a population that has not yet been found in ancient Native American DNA. Both papers seem to lean towards that missing population originating in the Indian Ocean with the one you linked to going so far as to propose Egypt. I don't know where they get that from, but its interesting they were confident enough to include it in an academic paper.

"The possible African and European contacts with Amerindians before Columbus (1492 AD) may not be genetically important; however, the existence of these contacts would help to explain similarities between ancient Egyptian and Mayan-Peruvian civilizations."

[Rajah Manchou]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

How about if we let science figure out where they came from and then build our BOM geography model based on that since the geography model is irrelevant to the theology anyway?

None of these scientific theories help a Hebrew origin anyway so it is clear we either figure out a way to rationalize it or give up on that and acknowledge that the BOM is a theological book of scripture and not a science text.

It came from somewhere and ended up for Joseph to receive by revelation.  The rest doesn't have much to do with anything.

I agree with you, and maybe half the reason I am so interested in viable alternative geographies is because I believe that we have trapped ourselves in a box by turning guesses about the location of the accounts into doctrine. By focusing on one or two limited geographies maybe we're missing the whole point of the text, "which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations."

The remnant of the House of Israel is scattered far and wide, not just in Mesoamerica or the Heartland. And as the papers linked to above demonstrate, the principle ancestors of the Americas sprang from a number of different sources. I suppose being able to demonstrate that with science will help tremendously when missionaries are allowed into Asia. There are literally billions of people there, many millions of them claiming Hebrew origins. Is the Book of Mormon relevant to them, as tribes that claim to be from the House of Israel? Of course it is, that's the whole point of the book. A theological book is nice, but a theological book that links together all the nations of earth is revolutionary.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[RevTestament]

7 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I agree with you, and maybe half the reason I am so interested in viable alternative geographies is because I believe that we have trapped ourselves in a box by turning guesses about the location of the accounts into doctrine. By focusing on one or two limited geographies maybe we're missing the whole point of the text, "which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations."

The remnant of the House of Israel is scattered far and wide, not just in Mesoamerica or the Heartland. And as the papers linked to above demonstrate, the principle ancestors of the Americas sprang from a number of different sources. I suppose being able to demonstrate that with science will help tremendously when missionaries are allowed into Asia. There are literally billions of people there, many millions of them claiming Hebrew origins. Is the Book of Mormon relevant to them, as tribes that claim to be from the House of Israel? Of course it is, that's the whole point of the book. A theological book is nice, but a theological book that links together all the nations of earth is revolutionary.

I don't see the BOM linking all the nations of the earth together any more than the Bible does TBH. I think more works will have to come forward to do that. However, both of the papers linked in this thread contain strong allusions that the one large migration theory seems to be wrong. Your link says the Thule Eskimo people may have arrived as late as 1000 YBP. The other suggests caucasoid and African links as well. I believe as science continues to progress, the one large Pre-ice age Beringian migration theory will meet its demise. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that they are using DNA studies of present populations to extrapolate, when we believe that many DNA clusters in the Americas have gone extinct in the diseases brought by Europeans. Thus, using ancient DNA would be more accurate, but that is largely blocked in the US by the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, although a limited amount of DNA studies has been allowed in certain areas. I hope that as US Natives become more familiar with the BOM they will allow more DNA studies of ancient burials - I believe that would be illuminating for them.

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I agree with you, and maybe half the reason I am so interested in viable alternative geographies is because I believe that we have trapped ourselves in a box by turning guesses about the location of the accounts into doctrine. By focusing on one or two limited geographies maybe we're missing the whole point of the text, "which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations."

The remnant of the House of Israel is scattered far and wide, not just in Mesoamerica or the Heartland. And as the papers linked to above demonstrate, the principle ancestors of the Americas sprang from a number of different sources. I suppose being able to demonstrate that with science will help tremendously when missionaries are allowed into Asia. There are literally billions of people there, many millions of them claiming Hebrew origins. Is the Book of Mormon relevant to them, as tribes that claim to be from the House of Israel? Of course it is, that's the whole point of the book. A theological book is nice, but a theological book that links together all the nations of earth is revolutionary.

I don't recall any questions on BOM geography on the temple recommend interview, or the two Cumorah theory.

This is only relevant as a crutch for some to bolster their testimony and all the research in the world won't do that anyway 

Edited July 29, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I don't see the BOM linking all the nations of the earth together any more than the Bible does TBH. I think more works will have to come forward to do that. However, both of the papers linked in this thread contain strong allusions that the one large migration theory seems to be wrong. Your link says the Thule Eskimo people may have arrived as late as 1000 YBP. The other suggests caucasoid and African links as well. I believe as science continues to progress, the one large Pre-ice age Beringian migration theory will meet its demise. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that they are using DNA studies of present populations to extrapolate, when we believe that many DNA clusters in the Americas have gone extinct in the diseases brought by Europeans. Thus, using ancient DNA would be more accurate, but that is largely blocked in the US by the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, although a limited amount of DNA studies has been allowed in certain areas. I hope that as US Natives become more familiar with the BOM they will allow more DNA studies of ancient burials - I believe that would be illuminating for them.

Why?

That's OK. You don't have to answer. I just wanted you to think about it.

What DNA will prove the resurrection?

You have a story about a flying man who returned from the dead to preach to people and you are worried about the DNA of the alleged witnesses?

The story is one thing but I find that logic more absurd than the story itself.

 

[rodheadlee]

53 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't recall any questions on BOM geography on the temple recommend interview, or the two Cumorah theory.

This is only relevant as a crutch for some to bolster their testimony and all the research in the world won't do that anyway 

DO you always have to stomp on the geography discussions? They are a welcome relief from the SSM/ Church history threads. Don't post if you don't want to take part.

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't recall any questions on BOM geography on the temple recommend interview, or the two Cumorah theory.

This is only relevant as a crutch for some to bolster their testimony and all the research in the world won't do that anyway 

Some people might apply geography, geology, history and anthropology as a way to understand the Book of Mormon. Others might apply philosophy. 

"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act ... creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future."

So my language is different than yours. Moving on.

[mfbukowski]

18 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

DO you always have to stomp on the geography discussions? They are a welcome relief from the SSM/ Church history threads. Don't post if you don't want to take part.

There are some here to take this seriously and don't see it as "welcome relief".  Perhaps a video game would be more relief?

[mfbukowski]

8 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Some people might apply geography, geology, history and anthropology as a way to understand the Book of Mormon. Others might apply philosophy. 

"I see Religion as creating a language to speak of the divine and sacred. Since I see creating this language as a creative act ... creating a certain view of heaven and earth, a living 'image' of God and Man and their story, past, present and future."

So my language is different than yours. Moving on.

You are exactly right

I hope you DO keep moving on and learn new ways to see things.  Of course my objection remains unanswered.

[rodheadlee]

15 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

There are some here to take this seriously and don't see it as "welcome relief".  Perhaps a video game would be more relief?

Oh, they have geography video games?

[Rajah Manchou]

33 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You are exactly right

I hope you DO keep moving on and learn new ways to see things.  Of course my objection remains unanswered.

Your objection to Book of Mormon geography? In a forum that is intended to be for people interested in Book of Mormon geography?

General Discussions

For topics and discussions concerning LDS Doctrine, History, Geography, etc...

 

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Why?

That's OK. You don't have to answer. I just wanted you to think about it.

I have thought about it, and I would like to answer. I have spent a lot of time preparing a work on these subjects exactly because I believe answers will be faith promoting. While I understand your position, and agree that the LDS religion is a wonderful belief system to live life by, and this alone can be enough to believe, I think most people just don't think that way. I know for me personally my faith is based upon knowledge and experience, and not just experience alone. In fact without having the tangible Bible, I don't know what I'd be. The Bible has always anchored my belief in God.The knowledge factor has been compromised for many people in the last several decades tho, as based on opinions of scholars many are told there was no Moses, no Exodus from Egypt, etc. Thus Christians in general have suffered the same kind of loss of faith that I think is besetting the LDS church. What if someone was to show exactly how the story of the exodus fits into Egyptian and Canaanite history, and that the places described in the story are real? What if someone were to also show exactly how the BOM stories progressed and where? Wouldn't that be faith promoting for all Christians? Stay tuned folks. Someone is going to. 

Quote

What DNA will prove the resurrection?

You have a story about a flying man who returned from the dead to preach to people and you are worried about the DNA of the alleged witnesses?

The story is one thing but I find that logic more absurd than the story itself.

Sounds to me like you have a problem believing in the resurrection, but just choose to live the principles. Well, you might see a flying resurrected man just soon enough to no longer have a problem with it. I think most Christians don't even realize that the 2 witnesses of Revelation 11 are resurrected. It is a general resurrection event. I suppose they would have a problem in believing that by man came the resurrection of the dead...

Obviously we are both intelligent enough to know that DNA will not "prove" anything, but if it is at least consistent with the story, I believe it would no longer be an impediment to the belief of people. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Oh, they have geography video games?

You mean imaginary non-verifiable geography video games?  Sure- I am sure there are all kinds of Harry Potter things

This is not to equate Harry Potter with the scriptures of the BOM, just to equate Harry Potter with speculative geography.  Or even better how about Middle Earth?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

.................................................

...........................The knowledge factor has been compromised for many people in the last several decades tho, as based on opinions of scholars many are told there was no Moses, no Exodus from Egypt, etc. Thus Christians in general have suffered the same kind of loss of faith that I think is besetting the LDS church. What if someone was to show exactly how the story of the exodus fits into Egyptian and Canaanite history, and that the places described in the story are real? What if someone were to also show exactly how the BOM stories progressed and where? Wouldn't that be faith promoting for all Christians? Stay tuned folks. Someone is going to. 

.............................................................

You might want to have a look at my “Moses Our Teacher (Moshe Rabbenu),” 2010, version 3, online at https://www.scribd.com/doc/51104640/Moses-Our-Teacher-Moshe-Rabbenu .

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

I have thought about it, and I would like to answer. I have spent a lot of time preparing a work on these subjects exactly because I believe answers will be faith promoting. While I understand your position, and agree that the LDS religion is a wonderful belief system to live life by, and this alone can be enough to believe, I think most people just don't think that way. I know for me personally my faith is based upon knowledge and experience, and not just experience alone. In fact without having the tangible Bible, I don't know what I'd be. The Bible has always anchored my belief in God.The knowledge factor has been compromised for many people in the last several decades tho, as based on opinions of scholars many are told there was no Moses, no Exodus from Egypt, etc. Thus Christians in general have suffered the same kind of loss of faith that I think is besetting the LDS church. What if someone was to show exactly how the story of the exodus fits into Egyptian and Canaanite history, and that the places described in the story are real? What if someone were to also show exactly how the BOM stories progressed and where? Wouldn't that be faith promoting for all Christians? Stay tuned folks. Someone is going to. 

Sounds to me like you have a problem believing in the resurrection, but just choose to live the principles. Well, you might see a flying resurrected man just soon enough to no longer have a problem with it. I think most Christians don't even realize that the 2 witnesses of Revelation 11 are resurrected. It is a general resurrection event. I suppose they would have a problem in believing that by man came the resurrection of the dead...

Obviously we are both intelligent enough to know that DNA will not "prove" anything, but if it is at least consistent with the story, I believe it would no longer be an impediment to the belief of people. 

Just to clarify these are not recent issues, they are HUNDREDS of years old.   

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Higher_criticism

The loss of faith is not due to science- the loss of faith is due to the BELIEF that science has something to do with religion

THAT is the erroneous BELIEF.

You will never escape that as long as you accept it!!

NEVER.  You are cutting your own throat by going down that path.  You are perpetuating the error.  You are taking the road Cardinal Bellarmine took against Galileo by equating science with scriptural truth in the belief that scripture was scientific truth

All the science in the world will never prove that Jesus died for your sins and mine.   It is the mode of Cartesian thought that science can solve every problem that IS the problem

I have absolutely no doubt that Jesus rose from the dead precisely BECAUSE the question is immune from  evidence!  I have no doubt that that "flying man" really did bodily get somehow from the Eastern Hemisphere to the Western BECAUSE I do not NEED science to explain it

THAT IS WHAT YOU DO NOT SEE

CAN YOU SEE that we could wait for more evidence forever and still not know it was true!!  Can you see that??

You can wait until doomsday for scientific proof that that individual Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead because he is the Son of God and never find it

I have no need to wait for evidence for science to tell me anything

I KNOW ABSOLUTELY right now, not because some silly human made a "discovery" but because GOD HIMSELF has told me in my heart that these things are true

Is there any other way??

There is no other way.   We must know both sides of the story- we must know what seems good and what seems evil.  There is no other way to the truth.

But nothing is as it first appears, we need to think about it and mull it over and discover new ways of seeing.

Don't worry about people.   In a hundred years everyone will think as I do and will look at these discussions as if we are talking about the scriptures being in conflict with the earth revolving around the sun

THAT was also a scientific question that kept people from understanding the truth of the scriptures, and now the very idea is laughable.

"If the earth revolves around the sun, the scriptures cannot be true and therefore God does not exist"

"If there is no BOM evidence the scriptures are not true and therefore God does not exist"

THAT is essentially the same argument you are in favor of.  That was Bellarmine's argument and then the science proved him wrong.  What happened to the influence of the church after that?  BECAUSE he linked science to the scriptures,  we believers have had 500 years of this error to overcome  (and of course the issue goes back even before that to Plato, I would argue)

And still it goes on even in this thread.

But thank God even secular philosophers who are atheists see the error in this logic nowadays

We can keep perpetuating the error here but our grandchildren will see it differently

Seeing religion as internal and as giving us personal meaning in our lives is the only way it will survive, not looking for scientific verification.  THAT road is what started the problem in the first place.

Edited July 29, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Ah right, the two groups mentioned on the tree below Anzick are the Mixe and Quechua, not Quiche. I don't know why they mentioned those two but I guess its because they were represented in the sampling.

That's an interesting HLA study. It does seem they were able to predict eleven years ago much of what had been found in last month's paper. I wonder if the South Asian element would be more visible if they ran their tests again with samples from Andamanese and Karitiana. It looks like they did pick up traces of it in the Quechua.

"If Meso and South American Indians come from Asia, they must have originated from a very different Asian people as those existing nowadays, and only a few remains are present in the Quechua population."

These two papers both hint at a population that has not yet been found in ancient Native American DNA. Both papers seem to lean towards that missing population originating in the Indian Ocean with the one you linked to going so far as to propose Egypt. I don't know where they get that from, but its interesting they were confident enough to include it in an academic paper.

"The possible African and European contacts with Amerindians before Columbus (1492 AD) may not be genetically important; however, the existence of these contacts would help to explain similarities between ancient Egyptian and Mayan-Peruvian civilizations."

I agree, Rajah. Bearing in mind, of course, that the late professor of linguistics at UC Berkeley, Mary LeCron Foster, did some important research showing a relationship between Egyptian and Mayan, among others.  Although she died before she could publish her detailed conclusions, her collected papers are now available in the Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley.

I called the paper you cited to the attention of a geneticist who deals with this stuff regularly, and he replied as follows:

Quote

Interesting paper, but it doesn't bring a whole lot of new things to the table. Multiple ancient source populations for the Native American gene pool has been advocated by David Reich and others (including a paper from a couple of years ago by my group) for the past few years. the current paper simply reaffirms that concept including some ancient DNA that have been published relatively recently.

 

Edited July 29, 2016 by Robert F. Smith

[mfbukowski]

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Obviously we are both intelligent enough to know that DNA will not "prove" anything, but if it is at least consistent with the story, I believe it would no longer be an impediment to the belief of people.

The existence of gravity is also consistent with the story but is no more proof than DNA would be

Anyone can dream up any story to be consistent with anything.  Criminals do it every day in court, and that is largely the job of defense attorneys.

But do those consistent stories change lives?

True Religion changes lives and it does not do it through consistent stories.   I was a total skeptic atheist and no story convinced me of anything and never will.  If God himself didn't confirm it I would not be here today

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

The existence of gravity is also consistent with the story but is no more proof than DNA would be

Anyone can dream up any story to be consistent with anything.  Criminals do it every day in court, and that is largely the job of defense attorneys.

But do those consistent stories change lives?

True Religion changes lives and it does not do it through consistent stories.   I was a total skeptic atheist and no story convinced me of anything and never will.  If God himself didn't confirm it I would not be here today

Perhaps when I finish I will give you the honors of proof-reading it so you can see what I mean. There is nothing wrong with reading scriptures, and being able to relate to where it happened, when, etc. I am not trying to use science to prove anything spiritual, but my guess is the spiritual will be able to confirm its truth. That can mean a lot to a Christian newbie and hopefully to Millennials. 

My premise is you cannot build faith out of a void. True religion does change lives out of stories. I believe God loves a good story, which is why He used the Israelites to teach us through the stories of their lives. I also believe this is why testimonies can change lives. You had to read the stories for God to confirm them to you. Without that there would be no story of Jesus, resurrection, etc to confirm...