Tacenda Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 11 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Yeah I know in another post I said good bye but I have no where else to share this. Today my daughter stopped by to share some amazing news. She has evidently traced my ancestry back to the very first human beings, Adam & Eve 6,000 years ago. She was effervescent when she told my wife and I the great news. Knowing that nearing 3% of my DNA is descended from my Neanderthal ancestors I asked her if she was going to continue her research so that our 40,000 year old Neanderthal ancestors might also receive their blessings? She looked at me like I had two heads and said there weren't any humans before Adam and Eve. I feel that I've failed as a father. Why are so many so afraid of knowing the truth Where ya goin? Don't leave! 1
Gray Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Of course - because you trust man more than God. Man's understanding of the world may yet prove to be wrong as it has many times in the past. God on the other hand... Science is another way of understanding God. The language of nature is the language of God, is it not? 1
Jeanne Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 38 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Where ya goin? Don't leave! Don't go...!
Johnnie Cake Posted July 19, 2016 Author Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Where ya goin? Don't leave! I love this board...that it isn't an echo chamber...that it has a variety of viewpoints....but what I don't love is the polemical nature that MD&D can sometimes disintegrate into. We don't engage in conversations to gain an understanding of contrasting viewpoints...too often threads disintegrate into personal attacks and efforts to defend ones own turf rather than in gaining an understanding of conflicting viewpoints. Everyone, including me, are so damn sure that their position is right and that the other is wrong that we don't/wont take the time to gain an understanding of the others persons viewpoints. I live in a mixed faith marriage, we have survived by building bridges of understanding and mutual respect rather than tearing each others worldviews apart...I just wish that all members of this board could somehow be more respectful of opposing viewpoints and less dogmatic in our various positions...but I don't see it happening any time soon...we all have too much invested in our favored philosophies Edited July 19, 2016 by Johnnie Cake 2
thesometimesaint Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 We can all disagree with something. Becoming disagreeable not so much.
Gray Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 4 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: I love this board...that it isn't an echo chamber...that it has a variety of viewpoints....but what I don't love is the polemical nature that MD&D can sometimes disintegrate into. We don't engage in conversations to gain an understanding of contrasting viewpoints...too often threads disintegrate into personal attacks and efforts to defend ones own turf rather than in gaining an understanding of conflicting viewpoints. Everyone, including me, are so damn sure that their position is right and that the other is wrong that we don't/wont take the time to gain an understanding of the others persons viewpoints. I live in a mixed faith marriage, we have survived by building bridges of understanding and mutual respect rather than tearing each others worldviews apart...I just wish that all members of this board could somehow be more respectful of opposing viewpoints and less dogmatic in our various positions...but I don't see it happening any time soon...we all have too much invested in our favored philosophies There are problems with any board, but this one is by far the best I've found with a good diversity of views and mainly civil dialogue.
Storm Rider Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: It wasn't science that claimed those things. Your first 3 is the Christian Bible. BTW. Science is always tentative. It is subject to correction based not on someone God, but on the evidence. I guess that evidence seems to change rather often in the world of science. That is the real problem with those that put their faith in science - they don't know that they don't know and yet they speak as if they know the facts. They only know as much as a man can know; a rather limited standard to live by. 1
CV75 Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 13 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Knowing that nearing 3% of my DNA is descended from my Neanderthal ancestors Not to derail, but were you among the samples that were tested?
Johnnie Cake Posted July 19, 2016 Author Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, CV75 said: Not to derail, but were you among the samples that were tested? Don't know exactly what you are inferring...but I'm guessing that you're being a smart *** Edited July 19, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
Atheist Mormon Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Of course - because you trust man more than God. Man's understanding of the world may yet prove to be wrong as it has many times in the past. God on the other hand... Of course, that MAN is ME . There was never any invisible entity but plenty other visible helps, friends....family... When Man's understanding is wrong there will be other attempts to truth, the science is after the facts...... God on the other hand is an illusion....
Guest Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 14 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Yeah I know in another post I said good bye but I have no where else to share this. Today my daughter stopped by to share some amazing news. She has evidently traced my ancestry back to the very first human beings, Adam & Eve 6,000 years ago. She was effervescent when she told my wife and I the great news. Knowing that nearing 3% of my DNA is descended from my Neanderthal ancestors I asked her if she was going to continue her research so that our 40,000 year old Neanderthal ancestors might also receive their blessings? She looked at me like I had two heads and said there weren't any humans before Adam and Eve. I feel that I've failed as a father. Why are so many so afraid of knowing the truth A couple of things... It would seem to me that you gave her your opinion, based upon the theory evolution. That is not truth, truth would be the entire answer, with no ambiguity. Also telling the truth to your child is not being a bad father, it is the calling of father to always teach truth, while at the same time, being humble enough to admit when you don't have all the answer. Also, the Church is not a young earth church, and only seeks to answer question the best it (she "The Church") can. For a very long time the Church has conceded that mankind has been around for a very long time.
RevTestament Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 13 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Do Neanderthals need temple work or are they more like animals who don't need temple work? They obviously existed before the word of God was introduced into the world by the first man with the spirit of God - Adam. ie they are from chp 1
Johnnie Cake Posted July 19, 2016 Author Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Pa Pa said: A couple of things... It would seem to me that you gave her your opinion, based upon the theory evolution. That is not truth, truth would be the entire answer, with no ambiguity. Also telling the truth to your child is not being a bad father, it is the calling of father to always teach truth, while at the same time, being humble enough to admit when you don't have all the answer. Also, the Church is not a young earth church, and only seeks to answer question the best it (she "The Church") can. For a very long time the Church has conceded that mankind has been around for a very long time. While I can appreciate your perspective having once held it myself before I educated myself (not intended as a personal attack) evolution is settled science. It happened. The question then is how church doctrine can remain intact and catchup to this reality. Another reality is that our human ancestors did mate with Neanderthals. The church just needs to explain how church doctrines coexists with this reality Edited July 19, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
Storm Rider Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: I love this board...that it isn't an echo chamber...that it has a variety of viewpoints....but what I don't love is the polemical nature that MD&D can sometimes disintegrate into. We don't engage in conversations to gain an understanding of contrasting viewpoints...too often threads disintegrate into personal attacks and efforts to defend ones own turf rather than in gaining an understanding of conflicting viewpoints. Everyone, including me, are so damn sure that their position is right and that the other is wrong that we don't/wont take the time to gain an understanding of the others persons viewpoints. I live in a mixed faith marriage, we have survived by building bridges of understanding and mutual respect rather than tearing each others worldviews apart...I just wish that all members of this board could somehow be more respectful of opposing viewpoints and less dogmatic in our various positions...but I don't see it happening any time soon...we all have too much invested in our favored philosophies It is constructive to build bridges in an environment where positions are not demeaned. Johnnie, you do a fair job of demeaning all viewpoints that conflict with your own. Everyone that takes a contrary view to your own is stupid at worst and at best severely lacking in intelligence. This is a Mormon board and most, but certainly not all, will use Latter-day Saint theology and doctrine as the touchstone to form a perspective. I am always surprised that there are so many contrarians perspectives to that touchstone voiced so consistently here. It can be stunning at times. It is one reason I don't recommend this site to many people. It should not be used as a place to learn because there is so much negative positions to wade through to get to the truly valuable and helpful. We should all be more prepared to build foundations rather than destroy them. I have a rather severe biting wit when I observe someone taking an overtly negative tone. It breaks out far more than it should and I apologize that you have been the butt of such volleys. You can be rather balanced in your approach to the Church of Jesus Christ and I appreciate it when you take such a tack on the Board. There is so much negative influences in the world that it is nice to have a safe port from life's storms to just discuss different perspectives about the gospel. We can do a better job about making this Board a safer port than we have. 1
waveslider Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 12 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: wave: Evolution isn't chance. SEE So it is possible to interpret, "Natural Selection," as being controlled by God? If so then I can't say that Evolution isn't how God did things. I was always under the impression that Natural Selection, as taught in Evolution, was an unguided process by anything with intelligence.
CV75 Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: Don't know exactly what you are inferring...but I'm guessing that you're being a smart *** Not at all -- there have been several academic and for-profit initiatives such as the Genographic Project, Neanderthal Genome Project, etc. that started how with voluntary testing, but now anyone can buy a kit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genographic_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_genome_project
Guest Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 22 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: While I can appreciate your perspective having once held it myself before I educated myself (not intended as a personal attack) evolution is settled science. It happened. The question then is how church doctrine can remain intact and catchup to this reality. Another reality is that our human ancestors did mate with Neanderthals. The church just needs to explain how church doctrines coexists with this reality I did not suggest that evolution is not valid...so not sure what you mean. My point is that the LDS Church is more open to the idea of evolution that most. I am and continue to be educated, on the issue of evolution, while not setting aside scripture and seeking wisdom and "the truth of all things", through the Holy Ghost. I do not limit myself to a secular education alone.
UtahTexan Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: With all due respect...it was actually science that dispelled these false human notions that were held by the religions of the day...Ever hear of Galileo and his run in with the Catholic church? I hope you are not anti science CountryBoy for every advancement we enjoy in our lives today came through science and a questioning human mind seeking answers to questions. not anti-science at all. Just making sure to point out that science is not infallible....belief and dependency on it is a fool's errand. What is a certainty today, might not be tomorrow.
snowflake Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 56 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: I love this board...that it isn't an echo chamber...that it has a variety of viewpoints....but what I don't love is the polemical nature that MD&D can sometimes disintegrate into. We don't engage in conversations to gain an understanding of contrasting viewpoints...too often threads disintegrate into personal attacks and efforts to defend ones own turf rather than in gaining an understanding of conflicting viewpoints. Everyone, including me, are so damn sure that their position is right and that the other is wrong that we don't/wont take the time to gain an understanding of the others persons viewpoints. I live in a mixed faith marriage, we have survived by building bridges of understanding and mutual respect rather than tearing each others worldviews apart...I just wish that all members of this board could somehow be more respectful of opposing viewpoints and less dogmatic in our various positions...but I don't see it happening any time soon...we all have too much invested in our favored philosophies Agreed Johnnie Cake....great place to bounce ideas off each other. I was raised LDS,....then went to college as a biology major and was completely submerged in biology and chemistry. There is no place for any other explanation of humans at the university except evolution. I Absolutely knew that evolution was "truth" and would laugh at Christians and thought they were bat SH** crazy to believe that a man rose from the grave, the flood, Noah's ark etc. I was an atheist for probably 10 years because I knew evolution explained everything. It wasn't until I realized that evolution is completely based on "belief" as well. The explanation of the origin of life, as a biology major was a huge problem with naturalism, it is still is unanswered today, the Urey Miller experiment that won those gentlemen the Nobel prize and supposedly proved the origin of life turns out to be a dead end. There was not getting around the racemic mixture problem, (and many other problems as well). The origin of life is just one of many problems involved with the "naturalism" worldview. What I am getting at is that many assumptions in the naturalistic worldview theory is that they are based on lies and just blind belief (just like many other religions). Once I finally realized that naturalism was a religion (based on a ton of faith with not a lot of evidence to back up the claims). Now you can believe that Neanderthals and Humans mated, how can you prove that by experiments and observation? Way to many assumptions to truly call that science. Webster's definition of science: Simple Definition of science : knowledge about or study of the natural world based on facts learned through experiments and observation : a particular area of scientific study (such as biology, physics, or chemistry) : a particular branch of science : a subject that is formally studied in a college, university, etc.
Johnnie Cake Posted July 19, 2016 Author Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: It is constructive to build bridges in an environment where positions are not demeaned. Johnnie, you do a fair job of demeaning all viewpoints that conflict with your own. Everyone that takes a contrary view to your own is stupid at worst and at best severely lacking in intelligence. This is a Mormon board and most, but certainly not all, will use Latter-day Saint theology and doctrine as the touchstone to form a perspective. I am always surprised that there are so many contrarians perspectives to that touchstone voiced so consistently here. It can be stunning at times. It is one reason I don't recommend this site to many people. It should not be used as a place to learn because there is so much negative positions to wade through to get to the truly valuable and helpful. We should all be more prepared to build foundations rather than destroy them. I have a rather severe biting wit when I observe someone taking an overtly negative tone. It breaks out far more than it should and I apologize that you have been the butt of such volleys. You can be rather balanced in your approach to the Church of Jesus Christ and I appreciate it when you take such a tack on the Board. There is so much negative influences in the world that it is nice to have a safe port from life's storms to just discuss different perspectives about the gospel. We can do a better job about making this Board a safer port than we have. With all due respect Storm Rider...can you show me a single post where I have demeaned a viewpoint that conflicts with my own? I've certainly disagreed with viewpoints that I don't share but I do my hardest to do so respectfully...and to suggest that I consider "Everyone that takes a contrary view to [my] own [as] stupid at worst and at best severely lacking in intelligence." seems a bit hyperbolic and an exaggeration of anything I've ever said regarding someone else's positions. Are you perhaps confusing me with some other poster? Edited July 19, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
Johnnie Cake Posted July 19, 2016 Author Posted July 19, 2016 16 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: not anti-science at all. Just making sure to point out that science is not infallible....belief and dependency on it is a fool's errand. What is a certainty today, might not be tomorrow. Given a choice of living in a world without science or a world without religion...given that choice...I'd have to go with living in a world without religion every time. But you are correct to point out that science is not infallible...and that's the beauty of it. As more evidence is discovered, Science has the ability to jettison old assertions and premises...unlike religion which tends to cling to beliefs even when those beliefs become untenable. 1
Johnnie Cake Posted July 19, 2016 Author Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, CV75 said: Not at all -- there have been several academic and for-profit initiatives such as the Genographic Project, Neanderthal Genome Project, etc. that started how with voluntary testing, but now anyone can buy a kit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genographic_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_genome_project My apologizes...I misunderstood your post...I thought you were calling me a Neanderthal :-) My DNA testing was done by 23andme Edited July 19, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
CV75 Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 Just now, Johnnie Cake said: My apologizes...I misunderstood your post...I thought you were calling me a Neanderthal :-) ...not that there's anything wrong with that... LOL
UtahTexan Posted July 19, 2016 Posted July 19, 2016 16 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Given a choice of living in a world without science or a world without religion...given that choice...I'd have to go with living in a world without religion every time. But you are correct to point out that science is not infallible...and that's the beauty of it. As more evidence is discovered, Science has the ability to jettison old assertions and premises...unlike religion which tends to cling to beliefs even when those beliefs become untenable. I have not had trouble with having both. Never have.
Johnnie Cake Posted July 19, 2016 Author Posted July 19, 2016 12 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: I have not had trouble with having both. Never have. Its nice we don't have to choose between them isn't it... Religion plays an important roll in the daily lives of millions of humans...I recognize that and respect it. It's not going away. I'm just glad that we have science and all of the advances and knowledge that it has benefitted our lives with...without it, I wouldn't have known I had Neanderthal ancestors
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