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FYI So what is gender scientifically?


rpn

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Frequently we discuss or try to discuss what transgender or other gender identity means and what approach is consistent with our LDS faith.    I thought some might find this article informs their understanding of the complexity of the scientific side of gender identity.    Please bump it if you find it valuable.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/the-humiliating-practice-of-sex-testing-female-athletes.html

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"By the mid-1940s, international sports administrators began requiring female competitors to bring medical “femininity certificates” to verify their sex. In the 1950s, many Olympics officials were so uneasy about women’s participation that Prince Franz Josef of Liechtenstein, a member of the International Olympic Committee, spoke for many when he said he wanted to “be spared the unesthetic spectacle of women trying to look and act like men,” writes Susan K. Cahn, a his­tory professor at the University at Buffalo, in her book “Coming On Strong: Gender and Sexuality in 20th-Century Women’s Sports.” Others were particularly bothered by women in track and field because of the strained expressions on their faces during competition. Such female exertion violated the white middle-class ideal of femininity, as did the athletes’ “masculinized” physiques, prompting Olympic leaders to consider eliminating those events for women."

 :blink:

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10 hours ago, rpn said:

Frequently we discuss or try to discuss what transgender or other gender identity means and what approach is consistent with our LDS faith.    I thought some might find this article informs their understanding of the complexity of the scientific side of gender identity.    Please bump it if you find it valuable.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/magazine/the-humiliating-practice-of-sex-testing-female-athletes.html

From what I’ve seen, on one hand, there are many ways that God can organize mortal gender. Genetics is certainly one of His tools but certainly not the only driver (many things can alter the course of the genes and the genes themselves). On the other hand, we use scientific knowledge for both good and evil. We have a very strange history indeed surrounding makind’s understanding of heredity and how poorly we have applied that “knowledge.” The contentions described in this article provide a case in point. On the third hand (yes, a mutant) God often permits and doesn’t fix (that kind of rhymes) the most fundamental errors to occur as his children’s spirits enter their mortal estate.

And so He tests us (whether we suffer or control; tolerate or judge) with perplexities at every turn that science alone cannnot address. The perspective the Gospel brings, the Gift of the Holy Ghost and His grace – whether here or in the spirit world -- allow us to make the best choices possible without fear of condemnation. It’s not about who is right with limited light (I’m a poet!), but about who is blessed in this ultimate test.

Edited by CV75
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55 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Gender is not sex.

That is because, in addition to the biology, sex also entails social and cultural norms of what it means to be male or female. The Lord’s society and culture are built upon covenant (D&C 130:2), where gender “is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.”

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5 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

I agree with " That is because, in addition to the biology, sex also entails social and cultural norms of what it means to be male or female". Not so much the latter. IE; Some LDS Missionaries allowed to wear a lava-lava.

Why not? That “same sociality” Joseph Smith refers to is that Zion sociality which is bound by covenant per the sealing authority. While the Oceanic cultures (and the freedom and comfort of a lavalava upon the loins) may be as close to heaven as anyone can get, they are in and of themselves (sadly) outside the covenants. Where LDS men and women both wear the lavalava (and the sarong), and there are other articles of clothing worn by both LDS men and women that are covenant-related, there are still subtle differences in these items that suggest gender identity. Who knows exactly how those will be translated into gender-appropriate celestial fashion, except that they will be "coupled with eternal glory ."

Edited by CV75
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On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 9:56 AM, CV75 said:

That is because, in addition to the biology, sex also entails social and cultural norms of what it means to be male or female. The Lord’s society and culture are built upon covenant (D&C 130:2), where gender “is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.”

 

I thought it was the other way around.

And according to the World Health Organization, "Sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-how-and-why-sex-differences/201110/sex-difference-vs-gender-difference-oh-im-so-confused

 

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12 hours ago, toon said:

I thought it was the other way around.

And according to the World Health Organization, "Sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-how-and-why-sex-differences/201110/sex-difference-vs-gender-difference-oh-im-so-confused

 

For me, it depends on who you're talking to and how he wishes to frame a discussion. The Proclamation seems to use "gender" to mean both, considering the context is sons and daughters of God, man and woman, husband and wife, parenthood, procreation, etc. If I was talking to someone who holds fast to the WHO definitions, I'd use them.

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22 hours ago, toon said:

I thought it was the other way around.

And according to the World Health Organization, "Sex refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-how-and-why-sex-differences/201110/sex-difference-vs-gender-difference-oh-im-so-confused

 

So if a girl likes to play football and tries out for the football team, she changes her gender to a boy?  I have always kept sex and gender to be the same.  I have no problem with girls liking to do things that guys like to do.  As a guy, I think that is smart as I like to do guy things as well.  But that does not mean they are guys and they can hang out with us in the mens bathroom or locker room.  I sure would not date a guy who likes to do girl things.  No dress, makeup and the rest will change that.  The whole transgender issue attempts to blur the lines to the point that guys who like to do girl things should consider themselves as girls and identify themselves as girls and go so far at to become a girl as best as they can.  

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1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

So if a girl likes to play football and tries out for the football team, she changes her gender to a boy?  I have always kept sex and gender to be the same.  I have no problem with girls liking to do things that guys like to do.  As a guy, I think that is smart as I like to do guy things as well.  But that does not mean they are guys and they can hang out with us in the mens bathroom or locker room.  I sure would not date a guy who likes to do girl things.  No dress, makeup and the rest will change that.  The whole transgender issue attempts to blur the lines to the point that guys who like to do girl things should consider themselves as girls and identify themselves as girls and go so far at to become a girl as best as they can.  

So what about intersex people?  Not transgender, but intersex?  

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And remember in the original article it was the sports people forcing the women to have genital surgery or hormonal treatment because they weren't female enough, not the women desiring it for themselves, even while forced female circumcisions are probably declared barbaric by the same people.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

"After nearly a year of negotiations (the details of which are not public) the I.A.A.F. cleared Semenya to run in 2010, and she went on to win the silver medal in the 2012 Olympics. She will be running in Rio. But the federation still faced condemnation over leaks, public smears and the very idea of a sex test. The I.A.A.F. maintained it was obliged to protect female athletes from having “to compete against athletes with hormone-related performance advantages commonly associated with men.” In 2011, the association announced that it would abandon all references to “gender verification” or “gender policy.” Instead, it would institute a test for “hyperandrogenism” (high testosterone) when there are “reasonable grounds for believing” that a woman may have the condition. Women whose testosterone level was “within the male range” would be barred. There were two exceptions: If a woman like Maria Patiño was resistant to testosterone’s effects — or if a woman reduced her testosterone. This entails having her undescended testes surgically removed or taking hormone-suppressing drugs.

Not long after the policy went into effect, sports officials referred four female athletes from “rural or mountainous regions of developing countries” to a French hospital to reduce their high testosterone, according to a 2013 article in The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism. The authors, many of whom were physicians who treated the women, describe telling them that leaving in their internal testes “carries no health risk,” but that removing them would allow the athletes to resume competition, though possibly hurt their performance. The women, who were between 18 and 21, agreed to the procedure. The physicians treating them also recommended surgically reducing their large clitorises to make them look more typical. The article doesn’t mention whether they told their patients that altering their clitorises might impair sexual sensation, but it does say the women agreed to that surgery too."

Edited by Calm
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Forgot to include this from the link I posted:

"Female genital mutilation (FGM) includes procedures that intentionally alter or cause injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons."

 

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On 7/4/2016 at 4:08 PM, CV75 said:

Why not? That “same sociality” Joseph Smith refers to is that Zion sociality which is bound by covenant per the sealing authority. While the Oceanic cultures (and the freedom and comfort of a lavalava upon the loins) may be as close to heaven as anyone can get, they are in and of themselves (sadly) outside the covenants. Where LDS men and women both wear the lavalava (and the sarong), and there are other articles of clothing worn by both LDS men and women that are covenant-related, there are still subtle differences in these items that suggest gender identity. Who knows exactly how those will be translated into gender-appropriate celestial fashion, except that they will be "coupled with eternal glory ."

I really don't believe that dress fashions have much, if any, bearing on whether we get to the Celestial Kingdom of not. It is us mortals that look upon the outwards appearance. God not so much.

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