So explain the "trust God" side of faith to me.

[Atheist Mormon]

18 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I 100% believe in God and his gospel, but I am always struggling to exercise the trust God part.  Because I have seen so many people who do trust God not have that trust fulfilled.
So, anyone want to take a stab at explaining it to this left brainer using scripture and doctrine, and if you must appeal to the emotional I suppose that's ok too.

I have a suggestion for you JL.....

Quit doing what you are doing for a while; as you said "Because I have seen so many people who do trust God not have that trust fulfilled." this is not a pessimistic conclusion, it is true, wether you believe it or not.....I realize the first steps are hard but if you put the trust in yourself (where it belongs to)...you will feel stronger......

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I have a suggestion for you JL.....

Quit doing what you are doing for a while; as you said "Because I have seen so many people who do trust God not have that trust fulfilled." this is not a pessimistic conclusion, it is true, wether you believe it or not.....I realize the first steps are hard but if you put the trust in yourself (where it belongs to)...you will feel stronger......

Oh I could never follow the path you suggest.

I have seen, felt, and experienced far too much.
My issue with faith is not one of belief, but one of trust.  I KNOW there is a God.  I just have a hard time trusting him to provide.

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, janderich said:

I see your point about reliability of outcome. But peoples situations are so unique and personal that it does little good to try and analyze why or why not God did or did not help someone else. The best way is to look to our own lives and ask God. 

Let me give you an example.
1. God commands us to provide for our families.
2. We make every effort to do so.
3. What our effort lacks, we make up for through many, many prayers of faith.
4. No ability to meet God's command in #1 is ever provided.
5. What are we to learn from this? 

The negative answers are obvious - That God doesn't want us to keep his commands?  That God doesn't answer prayers?  That the responsibility is ours alone?
What about the positive answers - That God has another plan that precludes us following this commandment.  That the intent is to grow faith exponentially.

Many other examples rooted in God's promises could be discussed here.
I've just always believed that if we have faith and priesthood that statistically more healing prayers should be answered for us than for those who don't follow his established law.
I've always believed that prayers offered in the temple should be answered more readily and more directly than those just of faith.
Else what is the point?

[Five Solas]

On 6/18/2016 at 8:38 PM, JLHPROF said:

I know that God says when we do what he says he is bound.  I can believe that logically.

Logically, doesn't that make you The Real God--given you possess power to "bind" the other fellow?  Yeah, I get it, he wants you to tie him up (literally, or perhaps only in a figurative sense of rendered "bound").  Still...

;0)

--Erik

PS. On an unrelated note, does anyone understand why professional soccer teams not infrequently inserts the word "real" in front of their city name (e.g., Real Madrid, Real Salt Lake)?  Deliberate pains to not  be mistaken for the other, presumably imposter team.

PPS. And no, Mathew 18:18 doesn't lead the reader to quite the same conclusion as LDS scripture. 

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Logically, doesn't that make you The Real God--given you possess power to "bind" the other fellow?  Yeah, I get it, he wants you to tie him up (literally, or perhaps only in a figurative sense of rendered "bound").  Still...

;0)

--Erik

PS. On an unrelated note, does anyone understand why professional soccer teams not infrequently inserts the word "real" in front of their city name (e.g., Real Madrid, Real Salt Lake)?  Deliberate pains to not  be mistaken for the other, presumably imposter team.

PPS. And no, Mathew 18:18 doesn't lead the reader to quite the same conclusion as LDS scripture. 

What's even weirder is it's pronounced "re-al" and not "real". 

[rodheadlee]

7 hours ago, Teancum said:

Tell this to a mother in Africa who watches their child starve.  Tell this to the refugees from Syria who while fleeing their war torn nation to save themselves and their families drown I the Mediterranean sea. 

So, you don't believe God can resurrect them to an eternal life of joy in His presence?  This is my favorites verses about trust in the Lord. As you can see the fulfillment of His promise comes at the end of this life and requires action on our part.  These things you speak of must be that the wicked be judged according to their works.

1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.

  2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

  3 Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.

  4 Delight thyself also in the Lord; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

  5 Commit thy way unto the Lord; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

  6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.

  7 Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

  8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.

  9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the bearth.

  10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

  11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

  12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.

  13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

[salgare]

For males, one should not need to look any further than the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood.  Have you received God's part of that covenant or not.  If not, why not?

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

So, you don't believe God can resurrect them to an eternal life of joy in His presence?  This is my favorites verses about trust in the Lord. As you can see the fulfillment of His promise comes at the end of this life and requires action on our part.  These things you speak of must be that the wicked be judged according to their works.

1 Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.

  2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

  3 Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.

  4 Delight thyself also in the Lord; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

  5 Commit thy way unto the Lord; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

  6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.

  7 Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

  8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.

  9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the bearth.

  10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

  11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

  12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.

  13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

I don't KNOW for certain there is a resurrection. I hope so. Still that is small comfort for so many who suffer in the here and now. When bellies are empty or you are fleeing your home because of ravaging war well faith in some things may be the last thing on your mind.  

Also why does God allow the wicked to so many awful things just so He can judge them?   I asked on another thread, why does it seem, and even more so in Mornonism, that agency or free will is seemingly God's prime directive?  It seems to trump all.   Even though a murderer takes away the free will of those they murder.

So you apparently worship a God who sits back and let's the wicked do atrocious things to othes so He can eventually laugh at them and then give them they deserve?   Seems a bit sadistical to me.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

why does God allow the wicked to so many awful things just so He can judge them? 

I have no question about God in his wisdom allowing awful trials to come upon us.
I DO have questions why those of faith and holding authority seem to have no ability to call upon God to end those trials.

Christ didn't question why someone was afflicted with leprosy, but he sure healed anyone who asked in faith.
Moses didn't question why Pharaoh's army was chasing and hunting the camp of Israel, but he called on God to part the seas and it happened.
Joseph Smith didn't question why the settlers in Nauvoo were plagued by malaria, but he finally stood up in faith and healed the city.

I don't question why God sends trials our way and even allows us to suffer or die.
I do have questions why after prayer and fasting or authoritative interventions, and faithful obedience to the patterns he established that he doesn't always intervene as promised.  That's where my faith needs to grow.

[rodheadlee]

28 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I don't KNOW for certain there is a resurrection. I hope so. Still that is small comfort for so many who suffer in the here and now. When bellies are empty or you are fleeing your home because of ravaging war well faith in some things may be the last thing on your mind.  

Also why does God allow the wicked to so many awful things just so He can judge them?   I asked on another thread, why does it seem, and even more so in Mornonism, that agency or free will is seemingly God's prime directive?  It seems to trump all.   Even though a murderer takes away the free will of those they murder.

So you apparently worship a God who sits back and let's the wicked do atrocious things to othes so He can eventually laugh at them and then give them they deserve?   Seems a bit sadistical to me.

You need to get to know God, not just a verse or 2 The Old testament is there for us to see God's personality to get to know Him. Try Isaiah 65:

I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

  2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

  3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

  4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine’s flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;

  5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

  6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,

  7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

  8 ¶ Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants’ sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

  9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

  10 And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of aAchor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.

  11 ¶ But ye are they that forsake the Lord, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.

  12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

  13 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:

  14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

  15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

  16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

  17 ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

  18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

  19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

  20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

  21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

  22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

  23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.

  24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

  25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

 

[rodheadlee]

38 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I don't KNOW for certain there is a resurrection. I hope so. Still that is small comfort for so many who suffer in the here and now. When bellies are empty or you are fleeing your home because of ravaging war well faith in some things may be the last thing on your mind.  

Also why does God allow the wicked to so many awful things just so He can judge them?   I asked on another thread, why does it seem, and even more so in Mornonism, that agency or free will is seemingly God's prime directive?  It seems to trump all.   Even though a murderer takes away the free will of those they murder.

So you apparently worship a God who sits back and let's the wicked do atrocious things to othes so He can eventually laugh at them and then give them they deserve?   Seems a bit sadistical to me.

Revelation 21:  4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

[Five Solas]

8 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Also why does God allow the wicked to so many awful things just so He can judge them?   I asked on another thread, why does it seem, and even more so in Mornonism, that agency or free will is seemingly God's prime directive?  It seems to trump all.   Even though a murderer takes away the free will of those they murder.

So you apparently worship a God who sits back and let's the wicked do atrocious things to othes so He can eventually laugh at them and then give them they deserve?   Seems a bit sadistical to me.

When things don't make sense, sometimes it's useful to check your premise. 

If the Bible is to be believed, the wicked don't need to physically do things to incur judgment.  Recall Jesus's words in Matthew 5:28, mere "lustful intent" (ESV) is sufficient to commit adultery in God's eyes.  So whatever the answer, it cannot be God's goal in "awful things"--that they are allowed merely "so he can judge them."  As Jesus made clear--you don't have to carry out an awful deed to be guilty of it.  The act itself is unnecessary.  God discerns and judges the heart (Hebrews 4:12). 

The answer must be something else...

:0)

--Erik

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I don't KNOW for certain there is a resurrection. I hope so. Still that is small comfort for so many who suffer in the here and now. When bellies are empty or you are fleeing your home because of ravaging war well faith in some things may be the last thing on your mind.  

Also why does God allow the wicked to so many awful things just so He can judge them?   I asked on another thread, why does it seem, and even more so in Mornonism, that agency or free will is seemingly God's prime directive?  It seems to trump all.   Even though a murderer takes away the free will of those they murder.

So you apparently worship a God who sits back and let's the wicked do atrocious things to othes so He can eventually laugh at them and then give them they deserve?   Seems a bit sadistical to me.

Isaiah 54:

7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

  8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.

  9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

  10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

  11 ¶ O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.

  12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.

  13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

  14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

  15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

  16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

  17 ¶ No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

[Eek!]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I do have questions why after prayer and fasting or authoritative interventions, and faithful obedience to the patterns he established that he doesn't always intervene as promised.  That's where my faith needs to grow.

The following is just my opinion.

In my experience, the most important element of healing via the laying on of hands or some other spiritual act is neither the authority held nor the format or pattern used.  Rather, it is the quality and strength of the spiritual connection between the "giver" and the "receiver". 

I believe that God's healing energy is out there in abundance, but it cannot flow if it is being impeded by unbelief, fear, doubt (of God or of yourself or of the other person), resentment, grievance, anger, disdain, hidden agendas, competition, pride, guilt, impatience, condemnation, reservations of any kind, or anything else negative.  The healing energy flows when there is appreciation and love, and flows best when there is only appreciation and love.  Outwardly it may look like one is the "giver" and the other the "receiver", but both give and both receive.  Imo this would be a situation where "to give is to receive", and vice-versa. 

In my opinion Priesthood authority, and following the format, help to remove fear and doubt and unbelief because you both know that this authority and this pattern have worked and worked well in other similar situations.  That is wonderful!  But as you have observed, it may not be enough. 

Imo there are occasions when only the best of feelings should exist among the participants.  I believe that two or more coming together in the name of Christ for the purpose of healing or facilitating the healing of one of them is such an occasion. 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Eek!

[salgare]

So no one has received the promises of the Oath and Covenant?  No one has any explanations of why not?  I would suggest that it's the very same reasons why deep down, jlhprof, nor anyone else holds any real expectations of God, i.e. trust that he will come through, no matter how much faith is put forward.

[bluebell]

18 minutes ago, salgare said:

So no one has received the promises of the Oath and Covenant?  No one has any explanations of why not?  I would suggest that it's the very same reasons why deep down, jlhprof, nor anyone else holds any real expectations of God, i.e. trust that he will come through, no matter how much faith is put forward.

It makes absolutely no sense to say that because no one answered your question it's because deep down no one holds any real expectations of God.  That's not a logical or a reasonable assumption.

[stemelbow]

This is a big issue for me too.  For some reason I believe there is God without much reservation.  my issue is more about not understanding Him.  We hear and read scripture that says God wants to bless us, but like our dear Prof, I see too many not being blessed, at least not blessed beyond anyone else.  I think it obvious because of this, there is no blessing in being born into the Church, or joining the Church.  It provides the individual no blessing or advantage, as I see it.  No one is more blessed than another from God's perspective.  I guess that may mean at some point someone will be blessed by God in a way that another is not...but that feels later down the road.  Then again, I also like to assume that no matter each person's final resting place, it is the very place he/she will be pleased with.  But seeing it that way tends to do away with the idea of a hell for those who don't get it all--meaning as it's been explained to me by some that those who inherit terrestrial or less in essence experience hell because for eternity they have to live with not having all the he/she could have if he/she were exalted. 

On top of that, I don't want to be blessed.  I don't want God to show me favor because I dare reach out to Him.  I'd rather He give favor to an ISIS member by teaching him a better way.  I'd rather He save the drug addict from her addiction, or make Himself known to the adamant atheist.  I'd rather He favor a potential victim of child rape, interfere on his half.  I'd rather He feed the starving, cure the mentally ill, restore the severely brain injured.  But that stuff isn't happening all that frequently.  If not, me seeking his help seems selfish and dull. 

Even more its far too easy and convenient to attribute fortunate circumstances to God in retrospect.  It bothers me when people tell me God saved them from certain death with a whisper in the ear while driving, or that God found a person's lost items, or that God favored a believer by giving her more. 

It all just troubles me and has me longing for something different.

[consiglieri]

This reminds me of a scene in Exorcist III where Detective Kinderman is talking religion with his friend, Father Dyer.

Kinderman, played by George C. Scott, is asking about all the ugliness in the world and why God lets it happen.

Father Dyer assures him it will all work out.

"When?" Kinderman asks.

"At the end of time," Father Dyer says.

"That soon?" Kinderman replies.

 

[JLHPROF]

43 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

This reminds me of a scene in Exorcist III where Detective Kinderman is talking religion with his friend, Father Dyer.

Kinderman, played by George C. Scott, is asking about all the ugliness in the world and why God lets it happen.

Father Dyer assures him it will all work out.

"When?" Kinderman asks.

"At the end of time," Father Dyer says.

"That soon?" Kinderman replies.

 

The end of time may be sooner than we think, regardless of what President Packer said once.

[consiglieri]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

The end of time may be sooner than we think, regardless of what President Packer said once.

Is there any apostle you don't disagree with? 

 

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, consiglieri said:

Is there any apostle you don't disagree with? 

 

Well, there is this guy Joseph Smith.
And then there's Brigham Young and John Taylor.
They were all pretty consistent, not to mention stood as God's mouthpiece and received recorded revelations.
Wilford Woodruff too when he wasn't issuing press releases, or Lorenzo Snow and Joseph F. Smith when they weren't doing the public tapdance.

[consiglieri]

On ‎6‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 8:38 PM, JLHPROF said:

I 100% believe in God and his gospel, but I am always struggling to exercise the trust God part.  Because I have seen so many people who do trust God not have that trust fulfilled.
 

 

God is not to be trusted.

A basic level of faith believes that if we do what is right, God will bless us.

Then we do what is right, only to find curses instead of blessings.

We blame ourselves for a while, thinking we haven't been good enough.

Then we start to get wise to the fact that God doesn't bless us because we do good things.  Nor does he curse us because we do bad.

That is when we leave the Deuteronomistic view and enter into that of Ecclesiastes.

God maketh his sun to shine on the just and the unjust.

Many in this stage persist in the idea that even though God doesn't bless us for our righteousness here, he will nevertheless do so in the afterlife.

But seldom is a good reason given for believing that God is going to change his modus operandi in the hereafter . . .

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

God is not to be trusted.

A basic level of faith believes that if we do what is right, God will bless us.

Then we do what is right, only to find curses instead of blessings.

We blame ourselves for a while, thinking we haven't been good enough.

Then we start to get wise to the fact that God doesn't bless us because we do good things.  Nor does he curse us because we do bad.

That is when we leave the Deuteronomistic view and enter into that of Ecclesiastes.

God maketh his sun to shine on the just and the unjust.

Many in this stage persist in the idea that even though God doesn't bless us for our righteousness here, he will nevertheless do so in the afterlife.

But seldom is a good reason given for believing that God is going to change his modus operandi in the hereafter . . .

I'm not sure I agree with this 100%, but I'd give you a rep point for a very well thought out post.

There is definitely some truth in this progression you describe.  But I give God more benefit of the doubt than you seem willing to.  After all, he HAS blessed me a lot, sometimes in very unexpected and wonderful ways that could only be the result of his intervention.  There aren't enough coincidences in the world to explain to my satisfaction the miracles I've seen.

That still doesn't change my difficulties trusting a God whose blessings seem to flow inconsistently.  But I know that he can be trusted, I just haven't learned how.  Hence my title for this thread.

Edited June 21, 2016 by JLHPROF

[salgare]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm not sure I agree with this 100%, but I'd give you a rep point for a very well thought out post.

There is definitely some truth in this progression you describe.  But I give God more benefit of the doubt than you seem willing to.  After all, he HAS blessed me a lot, sometimes in very unexpected and wonderful ways that could only be the result of his intervention.  There aren't enough coincidences in the world to explain to my satisfaction the miracles I've seen.

That still doesn't change my difficulties trusting a God whose blessings seem to flow inconsistently.  But I know that he can be trusted, I just haven't learned how.  Hence my title for this thread.

You know (or I hope you do) that I have a lot of respect for you.  I assume and would suggest that if anyone had some claim on the promises of the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood, you would.  There was a time that I expected some claim on those promises.  Trust issues with the physical side of things was not my worry, it was the literally covenanted spiritual promises.  LIke consig pointed out, the only reason one should not receive the promises is if they are not meeting their part of the four covenants being made.  The Temple ordinances are the Oath and Covenant priesthoods spoken of, two Aaronic, two Melchizedek.  So does one not desire, and even deserve to know where they stand with God, where they stand in their personal progression through these four levels/covenants?

As I have said several times past, I sought diligently my Calling and Election, with full trust, faith and every hope that God's promised side of the deal would also reflect a personal progression as I grew in obedience and dedication to my side of the contract.  I expected literal angels to administer to me, I expected the high power transfer of knowledge from the Holy Ghost as to the nature of God and his kingdom.  I expected to poke my head through the veil from time to time.  That was the promise, that was the example that Joseph and a group of close followers around him experienced, right?

I give you D&C 110 as an example of this.  Bluebell got after me about a general statement, but I ask it with a lot of personal investment into it and knowing my return.  Of course there is the new breed that now rejects these real, metaphysical aspects and will way soften the expectations once held by me, and I assume by you.  But I ask again, who here has received the promises of these covenants (none of which are physical)?

I am very sorry to have read this op by you.  Having endured the full measure of everything involved with rectal cancer and still enduring the chronic damage done, I have never experience pain greater than my lose of trust, faith and hope in God fulfilling his part of the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood.  It was a wide open gash deep into my soul, which scared worse that my physically scar mapped stomach and chest (and sewed up butt).

I don't worry about the soft sell folks, this will never crush them.  You my friend this trust issue can/will crush.

 

[Jeanne]

3 hours ago, consiglieri said:

God is not to be trusted.

A basic level of faith believes that if we do what is right, God will bless us.

Then we do what is right, only to find curses instead of blessings.

We blame ourselves for a while, thinking we haven't been good enough.

Then we start to get wise to the fact that God doesn't bless us because we do good things.  Nor does he curse us because we do bad.

That is when we leave the Deuteronomistic view and enter into that of Ecclesiastes.

God maketh his sun to shine on the just and the unjust.

Many in this stage persist in the idea that even though God doesn't bless us for our righteousness here, he will nevertheless do so in the afterlife.

But seldom is a good reason given for believing that God is going to change his modus operandi in the hereafter . . .

Thank you for this.