Was the Ante-Nicene Church "Orthodox?"

[Jim Stiles]

5 hours ago, RevTestament said:

The BoM does not have any racist content. It directly says all are alike unto God - black, white, yellow. God "cursing" the Lamanites can be understood in the same biblical terms as Job's skin being made "black" and and sinners being made white in Daniel. That is referring to countenance. In fact the BoM said when the Lamanites returned to the Lord they would again be "white" which later got changed to "pure." It is obvious that the physical skin color of Christian converts doesn't change. It is only in the minds of race-minded people that these become racist scriptures. 

Quote

“The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

“At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl–sixteen–sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents–on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather. There was a doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.” (Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference Report, October 1960, 34)

Where did Spencer W. Kimball get this idea of the American Indians turning white?

Quote

2 Nephi 5:21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

Quote

3 Nephi 2:12-15 Therefore, all the Lamanites who had become converted unto the Lord did unite with their brethren, the Nephites, and were compelled, for the safety of their lives and their women and their children, to take up arms against those Gadianton robbers, yea, and also to maintain their rights, and the privileges of their church and of their worship, and their freedom and their liberty. And it came to pass that before this thirteenth year had passed away the Nephites were threatened with utter destruction because of this war, which had become exceedingly sore. And it came to pass that those Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;

Black or dark skin does not mean that one is evil.  Regardless of what the LDS church historically taught.

[Jim Stiles]

7 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Do you know some simple facts about the Scriptures?

The one and the most important fact is there were no Scriptures as we know it until 366AD.

CFR.

[Jim Stiles]

4 minutes ago, Anakin7 said:

Read the whole article.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

 Anakin7      

From the cited article:

Quote

All this is to say: a variant is simply the difference in wording found in a single manuscript or a group of manuscripts (either way, it’s still only one variant) that disagrees with a base text. Further, there aren’t only 200,000. That may have been an accurate estimate in 1963, when we knew of far fewer manuscripts. But with the work done on Luke’s Gospel by the International Greek New Testament Project, Tommy Wasserman’s work on Jude, and Muenster’s work on James and 1-2 Peter, the estimates today are closer to 400,000.

 

[Anakin7]

14 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

Nothing like the Lorenzo Snow couplet is found in the Bible.

2 Corinthians 8:9

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The Lamb

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

 

[Anakin7]

4 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

From the cited article:

 

Keep reading.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The Lamb

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

[Anakin7]

19 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I have no clue what this even means

So there is an 85% chance that the earth is 6000 years old, that the sun stops occasionally, that donkeys talk, that stars lead people to a particular house and stay over that particular house, that Moses parted the sea, that the Exodus really happened along with a global flood and fitting 2 of each species into a boat, that there is scientific evidence for the resurrection and... what else?

And your point is ?.

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The Lamb

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

[Anakin7]

16 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

CFR.

He may be referring to bound scriptures.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

[Jim Stiles]

38 minutes ago, Anakin7 said:

2 Corinthians 8:9

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The Lamb

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

 

Quote

2 Corinthians 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

2 Corinthians 8:9 is about the incarnation, not the Lorenzo Snow couplet.

 

 

[Anakin7]

54 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

2 Corinthians 8:9 is about the incarnation, not the Lorenzo Snow couplet.

 

 

From your lenses not ours and early Christians.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

There are two types of religion: Christianity and everyone else.  Christianity (sometimes called Calvinism) tells us the story about what God has done for us.  Other religions, Mormonism included, tell us what we can do in order to trick God or the gods into letting us into heaven or other good thing.

This post everyone

Don't forget this one in dealing with our dear friend Jim

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

There are two types of religion: Christianity and everyone else.  Christianity (sometimes called Calvinism) tells us the story about what God has done for us.  Other religions, Mormonism included, tell us what we can do in order to trick God or the gods into letting us into heaven or other good thing.

Repeated for emphasis

[jkwilliams]

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

This post everyone

Don't forget this one in dealing with our dear friend Jim

Wow, did he really say that? Talk about an ugly distortion of Mormon doctrine, much less dismissing every religion except Calvinism as trying to "trick" God. That's not exactly the kind of message that wins people over to Jesus.

[Jim Stiles]

1 hour ago, Anakin7 said:

From your lenses not ours and early Christians.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

2 Corinthians 8:9 does not mention God the Father.  It does not mention a time when God the Father was just a regular old human being.  It does not really even mention the exaltation of regular old human beings.

[Jim Stiles]

1 hour ago, Anakin7 said:

From your lenses not ours and early Christians.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

CFR for a reference that indicates that the Ante-Nicene church believed anything like the Lorenzo Snow couplet.

[Jim Stiles]

43 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

This post everyone

Don't forget this one in dealing with our dear friend Jim

The steps for exaltation according to Mormonism (feel free to make corrections):

1. Baptism by Immersion for the Remission of Sins
2. Confirmation and Receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost
3. Ordination to the Priesthood (for Men)
4. The Temple Endowment
5. Temple Marriage: Sealed for Time and Eternity
6. Obey all of the Commandments (Grace only given after doing all that one can do.)

Do these things, and God will be compelled to give you the best that the LDS church promises its members.

On the other hand, under Monergistic Christianity, God does everything.  Man is commanded to believe the gospel, but faith in the gospel is a free gift from God.  Outside of that gift from God, Man does not, desires not, and cannot believe.  God literally does everything.

[boblloyd91]

3 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

There are two types of religion: Christianity and everyone else.  Christianity (sometimes called Calvinism) tells us the story about what God has done for us.  Other religions, Mormonism included, tell us what we can do in order to trick God or the gods into letting us into heaven or other good thing.

You're a temptation Jim Stiles! I know I shouldn't acknowledge the things you say because it won't go anywhere, but I just can't help myself, you're a goldmine of witty theological bon mots, and I can't stay away from reading what new and exciting things you have to say! I didn't know until today that Calvinism was the one and only true form of Christianity, and my efforts to keep the commandments were my way of sneakily fooling God. Oh the things you say! 

[boblloyd91]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

This post everyone

Don't forget this one in dealing with our dear friend Jim

Am I weird if I have developed a fondness for Jim? 

[boblloyd91]

10 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

The steps for exaltation according to Mormonism (feel free to make corrections):

1. Baptism by Immersion for the Remission of Sins
2. Confirmation and Receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost
3. Ordination to the Priesthood (for Men)
4. The Temple Endowment
5. Temple Marriage: Sealed for Time and Eternity
6. Obey all of the Commandments (Grace only given after doing all that one can do.)

Do these things, and God will be compelled to give you the best that the LDS church promises its members.

On the other hand, under Monergistic Christianity, God does everything.  Man is commanded to believe the gospel, but faith in the gospel is a free gift from God.  Outside of that gift from God, Man does not, desires not, and cannot believe.  God literally does everything.

I will give you this Jim, Calvinism does a good job of asserting God's sovereignty, but in my opinion is false for (among many other reasons) it's denial of man's free will or the importance of obedience. Now you can cite the book of Romans (especially chapter 9, beloved by Calvinists everywhere) and leave it there, but we would then have to discuss the sermon on the mount, Cornelius the Centurion, the book of Acts, the book of Hebrews and numerous other New Testament scriptures that discuss our need to keep the commandments, do God's will and give our will to him and be true and obedient. Now I am nowhere saying we do this on our own, and agree that God does most of the work, however we need to respond and be faithful. We could have a good old fashioned bible bash but we both know that wouldn't lead anywhere. 

[Jim Stiles]

On 5/23/2016 at 8:23 AM, saemo said:

Hello, Catholic and Orthodox adhere to two fonts of revelation. Scripture and Tradition. Every Catholic and Orthodox knows that NT scripture comes from Tradition. You are referring to the canonization of a set of books, that constitute the NT. We view the Councils as addressing errors and controversies. There aren't Councils convened to teach, for the sake of teaching. That task is the provenance of Bishops, who delegate to Priests and Deacons.

Anyway, yes, we are all aware, and taught,  the history of NT Scriptures. The canon was officially declared in response to heresy, mainly the Montantists, who were producing new "scripture", outside of Tradition.

That is why I prefer the Majority Text of the New Testament to the Critical Text of the New Testament because it more accurately reflects the scriptural manuscripts that had the imprimatur of the Ante-Nicene church.

You are becoming a troll. Start engaging in genuine discussion or leave.

[Anakin7]

Will post more when time allows   

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Edited May 24, 2016 by Anakin7

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said:

The steps for exaltation according to Mormonism (feel free to make corrections):

1. Baptism by Immersion for the Remission of Sins
2. Confirmation and Receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost
3. Ordination to the Priesthood (for Men)
4. The Temple Endowment
5. Temple Marriage: Sealed for Time and Eternity
6. Obey all of the Commandments (Grace only given after doing all that one can do.)

Do these things, and God will be compelled to give you the best that the LDS church promises its members.

On the other hand, under Monergistic Christianity, God does everything.  Man is commanded to believe the gospel, but faith in the gospel is a free gift from God.  Outside of that gift from God, Man does not, desires not, and cannot believe.  God literally does everything.

There is no point in you even being here anymore.  Bye.  You will not answer questions and are here only to preach.  Those are both against board rules, besides the fact that discussions with you are futile.  

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, boblloyd91 said:

Am I weird if I have developed a fondness for Jim? 

I view consensual relationships between adults as none of my business.

[boblloyd91]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I view consensual relationships between adults as none of my business.

😳 I certainly didn't mean it that way!

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said:

😳 I certainly didn't mean it that way!

[Anakin7]

1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said:

The steps for exaltation according to Mormonism (feel free to make corrections):

1. Baptism by Immersion for the Remission of Sins
2. Confirmation and Receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost
3. Ordination to the Priesthood (for Men)
4. The Temple Endowment
5. Temple Marriage: Sealed for Time and Eternity
6. Obey all of the Commandments (Grace only given after doing all that one can do.)

Do these things, and God will be compelled to give you the best that the LDS church promises its members.

On the other hand, under Monergistic Christianity, God does everything.  Man is commanded to believe the gospel, but faith in the gospel is a free gift from God.  Outside of that gift from God, Man does not, desires not, and cannot believe.  God literally does everything.

       You forgot Faith in The Lord Jesus Christ, Repentance which are the 1st 2 principles of the Gospel which we Believe and teach.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace    

Anakin7

Edited May 24, 2016 by Anakin7