Was the Ante-Nicene Church "Orthodox?"

[RevTestament]

I thought this might make a worthwhile discussion about why Christianity needed to be restored.

Did the earliest Christians have any creeds? Were they saved without such beliefs about God?

In other words did they believe that Christ was begotten before all ages or worlds or was that a reactionary belief to Christians such as Arius who believed it was possible for men to follow Jesus and become like him?

Did the earliest Christians even have any beliefs like the doctrine of the trinity or did that develop/evolve as well?

[Atheist Mormon]

"did that develop/evolve as well?"

You know it! The best source/author on this subject is Bart Ehrman, even then you don't need him to arrive this conclusion if you read Early Christian/Byzantium History, which is very much tied up with Emperor Constantine and Nicene Creed.

One of the reasons I still hold Mormonism in such high esteem is it came down to Josep to expose the whoredom of Catholicism. In Nicene Creed Arinaism was thrown under the bus, we ended up with mumbo jumbo of Athanasian Creed, Joseph came and threw that nonsense asunder, I was so happy in my believing days that I could deal with a God Joseph materialized for me.......

Edited May 16, 2016 by Atheist Mormon
typo

[BCSpace]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

I thought this might make a worthwhile discussion about why Christianity needed to be restored.

Did the earliest Christians have any creeds? Were they saved without such beliefs about God?

In other words did they believe that Christ was begotten before all ages or worlds or was that a reactionary belief to Christians such as Arius who believed it was possible for men to follow Jesus and become like him?

Did the earliest Christians even have any beliefs like the doctrine of the trinity or did that develop/evolve as well?

The early Christians certainly had no trinity doctrine whatsoever.  Not even Tertullian or Theophilus would have accepted the trinity heresy.  One finds many LDS-like beliefs among the early Christians which is exactly what one would expect if the LDS Church is, as it claims, a restoration of the original Church.

[RevTestament]

55 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

"did that develop/evolve as well?"

You know it! The best source/author on this subject is Bart Ehrman, even then you don't need him to arrive this conclusion if you read Early Christian/Byzantium History, which is very much tied up with Emperor Constantine and Nicene Creed.

One of the reasons I still hold Mormonism in such high esteem is it came down to Josep to expose the whoredom of Catholicism. In Nicene Creed Arinaism was thrown under the bus, we ended up with mumbo jumbo of Athanasian Creed, Joseph came and threw that nonsense asunder, I was so happy in my believing days that I could deal with a God Joseph materialized for me.......

I didn't really learn about the creeds until later, but when I learned about the LDS beliefs in the Godhead, it just made sense to me. Then there was also the doctrine of salvation for the dead, which had been a concern for me - allowing spirits which had never known Christ to accept Him in the spirit world just made sense too. It was on these Biblical principles that my testimony of the LDS Church grew. Yes, it was because of Joseph Smith that I began to see God in a different light - a light of a just God; also it was he who opened up my investigation into the Hebrew in my later years. I think Arianism got thrown under the bus just by the sheer weight of emperor Constantine wanting a consensus view for the new state church. He at first adopted the Athanasian view, but ironically later switched to favor the views of Arius when he realized the vast numbers in the east that didn't like the Nicene Creed. 

Thanks for your suggestion about Bart Ehrman - I've heard about his books, but maybe it has come time for me to read some...

Like you I was very happy I had found the LDS church. The truth of the principles is still there even if people in the church, including myself, don't follow perfectly.

[RevTestament]

56 minutes ago, BCSpace said:

The early Christians certainly had no trinity doctrine whatsoever.  Not even Tertullian or Theophilus would have accepted the trinity heresy.  One finds many LDS-like beliefs among the early Christians which is exactly what one would expect if the LDS Church is, as it claims, a restoration of the original Church.

Most "Orthodox" don't realize Tertullian wrote there was a time when the Son was not...

[Atheist Mormon]

24 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Most "Orthodox" don't realize Tertullian wrote there was a time when the Son was not...

That is what Joseph also said, now we are twisting that like other doctrines......(Not that I'm a believer any longer but It bothers me to see)

[RevTestament]

If you don't believe anymore, why does it bother you?

[BCSpace]

3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

That is what Joseph also said, now we are twisting that like other doctrines......(Not that I'm a believer any longer but It bothers me to see)

What's being twisted in your opinion?

[Jim Stiles]

8 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Most "Orthodox" don't realize Tertullian wrote there was a time when the Son was not...

CFR

[Jim Stiles]

9 hours ago, BCSpace said:

The early Christians certainly had no trinity doctrine whatsoever.  Not even Tertullian or Theophilus would have accepted the trinity heresy.  One finds many LDS-like beliefs among the early Christians which is exactly what one would expect if the LDS Church is, as it claims, a restoration of the original Church.

CFR

[Jim Stiles]

10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I thought this might make a worthwhile discussion about why Christianity needed to be restored.

Did the earliest Christians have any creeds? Were they saved without such beliefs about God?

In other words did they believe that Christ was begotten before all ages or worlds or was that a reactionary belief to Christians such as Arius who believed it was possible for men to follow Jesus and become like him?

Did the earliest Christians even have any beliefs like the doctrine of the trinity or did that develop/evolve as well?

The Catholic Encyclopedia is good English language resource for these issues.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

Quote

Proof of the doctrine from tradition
The Church Fathers

In this section we shall show that the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity has from the earliest times been taught by the Catholic Churchand professed by her members. As none deny this for any period subsequent to the Arian and Macedonian controversies, it will be sufficient if we here consider the faith of the first four centuries only. An argument of very great weight is provided in the liturgical forms of the Church. The highest probative force must necessarily attach to these, since they express not the private opinion of a single individual, but the public belief of the whole body of the faithful. Nor can it be objected that the notions of Christians on the subject were vague and confused, and that their liturgical forms reflect this frame of mind. On such a point vagueness was impossible. Any Christian might be called on to seal with his blood his belief that there is but One God. The answer of Saint Maximus(c. A.D. 250) to the command of the proconsul that he should sacrifice to the gods, "I offer no sacrifice save to the One True God," is typical of many such replies in the Acts of the martyrs. It is out of the question to suppose that men who were prepared to give their lives on behalf of this fundamental truth were in point of fact in so great confusion in regard to it that they were unaware whether their creed was monotheistic, ditheistic, or tritheistic. Moreover, we know that their instruction regarding the doctrines of their religionwas solid. The writers of that age bear witness that even the unlettered were thoroughly familiar with the truths of faith (cf. Justin,First Apology 60; Irenaeus, Against Heresies III.4.2).

(1) Baptismal formulas

We may notice first the baptismal formula, which all acknowledge to be primitive. It has already been shown that the words as prescribed by Christ (Matthew 28:19) clearly express the Godhead of the Three Persons as well as their distinction, but another consideration may here be added. Baptism, with its formal renunciation of Satan and his works, was understood to be the rejection of the idolatry of paganism and the solemn consecration of the baptised to the one true God (Tertullian, De Spectaculis 4; Justin, First Apology 4). The act of consecration was the invocation over them of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The supposition that they regarded the Second and Third Persons as created beings, and were in fact consecrating themselves to the service of creatures, is manifestly absurd. St. Hippolytus has expressed the faith of the Church in the clearest terms: "He who descends into this laver ofregeneration with faith forsakes the Evil One and engages himself to Christ, renounces the enemy and confesses that Christ is God . . . he returns from the font a son of God and a coheir of Christ. To Whom with the all holy, the good and lifegiving Spirit be glory now and always, forever and ever. Amen" (Sermon on Theophany 10).

(2) The doxologies

The witness of the doxologies is no less striking. The form now universal, "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost," so clearly expresses the Trinitarian dogma that the Arians found it necessary to deny that it had been in use previous to thetime of Flavian of Antioch (Philostorgius, "Hist. eccl.", III, xiii).

It is true that up to the period of the Arian controversy another form, "Glory to the Father, through the Son, in the Holy Spirit," had been more common (cf. Clement's Epistle to the Corinthians 58-59; Justin, First Apology 67). This latter form is indeed perfectly consistent with Trinitarian belief: it, however, expresses not the coequality of the Three Persons, but their operation in regard to man. We live in the Spirit, and through Him we are made partakers in Christ (Galatians 5:25; Romans 8:9); and it is through Christ, as His members, that we are worthy to offer praise to God (Hebrews 13:15).

 

[Anakin7]

Am reading LDS Author David Thomas Book - " Hebrew Roots of Mormonism ", has some great Historical info on Nicaea [ As does other LDS and non LDS publications ].

Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The Lamb

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7  

 

[Atheist Mormon]

8 hours ago, BCSpace said:

What's being twisted in your opinion?

if you follow the official declarations/interviews through the years you could see definitive pattern of ditching efforts of main doctrines.....

[RevTestament]

6 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

CFR

Yep, they don't believe it:

ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian

He says it in another way in another of his papers.

[Gray]

15 hours ago, BCSpace said:

The early Christians certainly had no trinity doctrine whatsoever.  Not even Tertullian or Theophilus would have accepted the trinity heresy.  One finds many LDS-like beliefs among the early Christians which is exactly what one would expect if the LDS Church is, as it claims, a restoration of the original Church.

The earliest Christians were not a united front with a single set of orthodox beliefs. The letters of Paul compared to the doctrines taught in the gospels demonstrate that. 

Edited May 16, 2016 by Gray

[RevTestament]

6 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

The Catholic Encyclopedia is good English language resource for these issues.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

 

LDS also believe in the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and we baptize with the biblical words. 

Contrary to the Catholic assertions, however, that does not in any way prove the doctrines of the trinity are true or else Protestants would have no problem with LDS beliefs.

The problems with the doctrines of the trinity are many: here I will post my summary of them:

..................................................Bible vs Roman Creeds/Trinitarianism

Invites men to come freely (godly   love)...................................Use of fear, compulsion, & persecution (adversary)
Bible - Covenant with God, Isaiah 61:6-8.........................................Roman Creeds - words from where?
"man shall live by every word of God"  Luke 4:4.................promulgated under the maximum priest of Roman gods 
Rome is the Beast of Daniel 7:19-20..........................(pontifex = builder of the way/roads) Pontifex Maximus office 
and Rev 13, Rev 17 Woman on beast   ...............................of  Constantine and later Bishop of Rome  (Roman Church)
Mystery, Babylon 1 Peter 5:13, Rev   17:5..........................Babylon was beast of Dan 7:4 and head of image Dan 2

Apostles and Christians had no   ..................................................................  none 33 A.D - 325 A.D.
creeds for 3 centuries and were persecuted   .............................approx 325 Nicea 1st Creed - required by Roman law   ............................................................................................to be read in churches - persecution stops

Elohim - a plural Hebrew noun ex. Family...................Deity(Latin) - a singular "god" idea/word from Rome & Greece 
Gen 1:26 "And Eloheim said let   US.......................................Rome is beast of Dan 7:19-20, Dan 2 kingdom of iron
make man in OUR image." (includes Father &   Son)...............Greece is beast of Dan 7:6, Dan 2 kingdom of brass
God created the world through Jesus Christ Eph   3:9................Persia is beast of Dan 7:5, Dan 2 kingdom of silver
 . . . . .  .  . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . .  . . . .. . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Babylon is beast of Dan 7:4, Dan 2 head of gold

Godhead Acts 17:29 KJV, Col   2:9, Ps 82:1.................Trinity - coined by Tertullian who also said the Son had a ........................................................................................beginning - sorry Trins
https://www.lds.org/topics/godhead?lang=eng.......................... ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian

"The Father and I are one"
Father - Most High(El Elyon) - Psalms   47:2-3, Psalms   110:1, Acts 7:55.............Father "co-equal, one substance,

............................................................. .........................................................one being" the Almighty
 
Son - Holy One of Israel - Isaiah 54:5 KJV, Acts   13:35....................Son "co-equal, co-substantial, one being"
Son of the Most High, servant - Isaiah 42:1, 6, 8, .................................... Son of the Almighty God  
"Enough Breast" (El Shaddai) - Rev 1:8, 4:8, Jn 8:58, Gen 17:1  ...................per Apostles Creed and others
YHWH Elohim with the Father
Gen 3:22; Isa. 47:4
"The Father is greater than I."
"Who hath seen me, hath seen the Father."
"Whatsoever the Father doeth the Son doeth likewise." "I am the way." Jn 14:6
Inheritor - now on right hand, but will sit in Father's stead & be   called Father .......... immutable - Son forever   ................................................................................................Platonic/Aristotlian(Greece again) concept
Isaiah 9:6, "inheritor of my mountains" Isaiah 65:9; Heb 1:4.......................but already "co-equal"; denies ...........................................................................................................inheritance; enemy to Christ
Under the Hebraic law, the firstborn or begotten inherited all his father had.

only begotten ..................................................   ........................325 creed -   "begotten before all worlds"
Heb 7:28 Oath of the Father -   .........................................................under   Bishop of Rome as Pontifex maximus
"Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee."   ............................... became   "eternally begotten"

John 15:16 Pray/ask the Father in the name of Jesus Christ   .......................... Pray to Son or Mary

Holy Ghost ...................................................................................... Holy Ghost - not declared
Matt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man,   ...... co-substantial in Nicean Creed - oops!
it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost,   .............Constantinople 381 A.D.- ................................................................................................declared as co-equal & one substance
it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come............... with the Son

.....................................................................................................(blasphemy against HG or Christ?)

Baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Descended upon Jesus in form of dove in River Jordan   ...............sprinkle sinless infants with "holy water" salted   ...............................................................................................like in pagan roman holy water

Copyright RevelationTestament.net - license granted for one copy, no reproduction

Edited May 16, 2016 by RevTestament

[RevTestament]

16 hours ago, BCSpace said:

The early Christians certainly had no trinity doctrine whatsoever.  Not even Tertullian or Theophilus would have accepted the trinity heresy.  One finds many LDS-like beliefs among the early Christians which is exactly what one would expect if the LDS Church is, as it claims, a restoration of the original Church.

 

29 minutes ago, Gray said:

The earliest Christians were not a united front with a single set of orthodox beliefs. 

I think that is exactly what BCSpace is saying. There were actually a number of beliefs expressed about the Godhead. Tertullian was later labelled a "Montanist."

Even though he basically coined "the trinity" and is called the "father of Latin Orthodoxy," he was never sainted....I wonder how that could possibly be?? Could it have to do with the fact that his beliefs did not reflect later "Orthodoxy?" While reviewing the writings of the earliest Christians, there just is no belief in the doctrines of the trinity as those came to be known in the later Catholic Church. As you indicate there simply was no early "unified Orthodox front" in the earliest church - that is simply a fiction perpetrated onto the members of the later Catholic Church which got carried over into Protestantism. 

Edited May 16, 2016 by RevTestament

[Gray]

5 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

 

I think that is exactly what BC Space is saying. There were actually a number of beliefs expressed about the Godhead. Tertullian was later labelled a "Montanist."

Even though he basically coined "the trinity" is is called the "father of Latin Orthodoxy" he was never sainted....I wonder how that could possibly be?? Could it have to do with the fact that his beliefs did not reflect later "Orthodoxy?" While reviewing the writings of the earliest Christians, there just is no belief in the doctrines of the trinity as those came to be known in the later Catholic Church.

I agree, the trinity was a later theological innovation. But when we talk about the earliest Christians, we're talking about many different communities with different beliefs. 

[RevTestament]

3 minutes ago, Gray said:

I agree, the trinity was a later theological innovation. But when we talk about the earliest Christians, we're talking about many different communities with different beliefs. 

I agree. It seems to me with the loss of the church in Jerusalem, the beliefs and practices became somewhat fragmented - such as the ordinance of baptisms for the dead. It eventually got ruled a heresy in a fifth century council which reflects at least some were still practicing some form of it. Beliefs about the begotten nature of the Son never really seemed to have any discernible consensus. Again the fifth century codex Bezae even attempted to stick it into Luke with the baptism of Jesus.

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

if you follow the official declarations/interviews through the years you could see definitive pattern of ditching efforts of main doctrines.....

Hmm. Well, that depends I think. I believe the "main doctrines" of salvation are the same. That means the church is still possesses the true path to exaltation. There have been various statements/opinions/"revelations" about God made by various GAs over the years since JS, and I seek confirmation from the HS on those I have doubt about. For instance if the missionaries had told me the church believes God was "married" to Mary as BY seemed to teach, I think that would have given me pause. But to my knowledge no subsequent Presidents have taught that, and it is not accepted as doctrine - for that I am relieved. The fact that various Presidents have taught various and sometimes disagreeing things doesn't change the fact that the Lord set up this church as the restoration of His gospel. I believe man has always struggled to understand God - I think somewhat by design - and the fact that the church continues to do so merely makes us like everyone else in that regard.

[saemo]

18 hours ago, RevTestament said:

 

In other words did they believe that Christ was begotten before all ages or worlds or was that a reactionary belief to Christians such as Arius who believed it was possible for men to follow Jesus and become like him?

Did the earliest Christians even have any beliefs like the doctrine of the trinity or did that develop/evolve as well?

John 1:1

[saemo]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

LDS also believe in the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and we baptize with the biblical words. 

Contrary to the Catholic assertions, however, that does not in any way prove the doctrines of the trinity are true or else Protestants would have no problem with LDS beliefs.

The problems with the doctrines of the trinity are many: here I will post my summary of them:

..................................................Bible vs Roman Creeds/Trinitarianism

Invites men to come freely (godly   love)...................................Use of fear, compulsion, & persecution (adversary)
Bible - Covenant with God, Isaiah 61:6-8.........................................Roman Creeds - words from where?
"man shall live by every word of God"  Luke 4:4.................promulgated under the maximum priest of Roman gods 
Rome is the Beast of Daniel 7:19-20..........................(pontifex = builder of the way/roads) Pontifex Maximus office 
and Rev 13, Rev 17 Woman on beast   ...............................of  Constantine and later Bishop of Rome  (Roman Church)
Mystery, Babylon 1 Peter 5:13, Rev   17:5..........................Babylon was beast of Dan 7:4 and head of image Dan 2

Apostles and Christians had no   ..................................................................  none 33 A.D - 325 A.D.
creeds for 3 centuries and were persecuted   .............................approx 325 Nicea 1st Creed - required by Roman law   ............................................................................................to be read in churches - persecution stops

Elohim - a plural Hebrew noun ex. Family...................Deity(Latin) - a singular "god" idea/word from Rome & Greece 
Gen 1:26 "And Eloheim said let   US.......................................Rome is beast of Dan 7:19-20, Dan 2 kingdom of iron
make man in OUR image." (includes Father &   Son)...............Greece is beast of Dan 7:6, Dan 2 kingdom of brass
God created the world through Jesus Christ Eph   3:9................Persia is beast of Dan 7:5, Dan 2 kingdom of silver
 . . . . .  .  . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . .  . . . .. . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Babylon is beast of Dan 7:4, Dan 2 head of gold

Godhead Acts 17:29 KJV, Col   2:9, Ps 82:1.................Trinity - coined by Tertullian who also said the Son had a ........................................................................................beginning - sorry Trins
https://www.lds.org/topics/godhead?lang=eng.......................... ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian

"The Father and I are one"
Father - Most High(El Elyon) - Psalms   47:2-3, Psalms   110:1, Acts 7:55.............Father "co-equal, one substance,

............................................................. .........................................................one being" the Almighty
 
Son - Holy One of Israel - Isaiah 54:5 KJV, Acts   13:35....................Son "co-equal, co-substantial, one being"
Son of the Most High, servant - Isaiah 42:1, 6, 8, .................................... Son of the Almighty God  
"Enough Breast" (El Shaddai) - Rev 1:8, 4:8, Jn 8:58, Gen 17:1  ...................per Apostles Creed and others
YHWH Elohim with the Father
Gen 3:22; Isa. 47:4
"The Father is greater than I."
"Who hath seen me, hath seen the Father."
"Whatsoever the Father doeth the Son doeth likewise." "I am the way." Jn 14:6
Inheritor - now on right hand, but will sit in Father's stead & be   called Father .......... immutable - Son forever   ................................................................................................Platonic/Aristotlian(Greece again) concept
Isaiah 9:6, "inheritor of my mountains" Isaiah 65:9; Heb 1:4.......................but already "co-equal"; denies ...........................................................................................................inheritance; enemy to Christ
Under the Hebraic law, the firstborn or begotten inherited all his father had.

only begotten ..................................................   ........................325 creed -   "begotten before all worlds"
Heb 7:28 Oath of the Father -   .........................................................under   Bishop of Rome as Pontifex maximus
"Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee."   ............................... became   "eternally begotten"

John 15:16 Pray/ask the Father in the name of Jesus Christ   .......................... Pray to Son or Mary

Holy Ghost ...................................................................................... Holy Ghost - not declared
Matt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man,   ...... co-substantial in Nicean Creed - oops!
it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost,   .............Constantinople 381 A.D.- ................................................................................................declared as co-equal & one substance
it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come............... with the Son

.....................................................................................................(blasphemy against HG or Christ?)

Baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Descended upon Jesus in form of dove in River Jordan   ...............sprinkle sinless infants with "holy water" salted   ...............................................................................................like in pagan roman holy water

Copyright RevelationTestament.net - license granted for one copy, no reproduction

You get a double eye roll for this list. 

[RevTestament]

5 minutes ago, saemo said:

John 1:1

Sorry, John 1:1 teaches little to nothing about the doctrines of the trinity. To me it teaches that as the Word, Jesus is YHWH. So where does the Bible clearly teach that the Holy Spirit is YHWH? 

Where does the Bible teach that Jesus is the Most High El? Luke teaches He is the Son of the Most High.

[RevTestament]

16 minutes ago, saemo said:

You get a double eye roll for this list. 

Well thank you I tink... .  

Be sure to let me know how to improve it. [besides the formatting I mean - this editor is too fussy about formatting]

[saemo]

19 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Sorry, John 1:1 teaches little to nothing about the doctrines of the trinity. To me it teaches that as the Word, Jesus is YHWH. So where does the Bible clearly teach that the Holy Spirit is YHWH? 

Where does the Bible teach that Jesus is the Most High El? Luke teaches He is the Son of the Most High.

Hello, John 1:1 says Jesus is God.  God is the Most High. If you don't believe God is the Most High, not much I can help you with there.

9 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Well thank you I tink... .  

Be sure to let me know how to improve it. [besides the formatting I mean - this editor is too fussy about formatting]

Ditch it?