Was the Ante-Nicene Church "Orthodox?"

[Anakin7]

4 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

2 Corinthians 8:9 is about the incarnation, not the Lorenzo Snow couplet.

 

 

Yes I know that is the incarnation and it includes Deification/Glorification as well. 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace    

Anakin7

 

Edited May 24, 2016 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

14 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

2 Corinthians 8:9 does not mention God the Father.  It does not mention a time when God the Father was just a regular old human being.  It does not really even mention the exaltation of regular old human beings.

No it mentions what GOD The Son Jesus Christ did which was exactly as what God The Father did. And also what His Grace will transform us into.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7    

Edited May 24, 2016 by Anakin7
Response

[RevTestament]

4 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

The steps for exaltation according to Mormonism (feel free to make corrections):

1. Baptism by Immersion for the Remission of Sins
2. Confirmation and Receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost
3. Ordination to the Priesthood (for Men)
4. The Temple Endowment
5. Temple Marriage: Sealed for Time and Eternity
6. Obey all of the Commandments (Grace only given after doing all that one can do.)

Do these things, and God will be compelled to give you the best that the LDS church promises its members.

On the other hand, under Monergistic Christianity, God does everything.  Man is commanded to believe the gospel, but faith in the gospel is a free gift from God.  Outside of that gift from God, Man does not, desires not, and cannot believe.  God literally does everything.

My first point will be that LDS do not view "exaltation"to be the same as salvation. While you seem a decent sort, and I'm sure will be saved, without following the list you will not be exalted. So what do Calvinists say about scriptures like this:

Luke 12:48

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

[RevTestament]

7 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

Where did Spencer W. Kimball get this idea of the American Indians turning white?

Black or dark skin does not mean that one is evil.  Regardless of what the LDS church historically taught.

Quite true. Like most critics you seem to be suffering from selective scripture application.

 

2 Nephi 26:33

33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

[RevTestament]

 

On 05/23/2016 at 6:51 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

It bothers me the same way, that I make an agreement one of my vendors, shake hands and next day he comes & changes the rules. I tell him "get off my face, this is not what we agreed yesterday".

Fair enough. Do you consider a basic principle of the gospel to be changed?

[Atheist Mormon]

19 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

 

Fair enough. Do you consider a basic principle of the gospel to be changed?

No, by no means....As I've said it turns me completely off when Mormons change or dilute theirs to fit mainstream Christianity....As I've mentioned I did love Joseph's Mormon Doctrines...Sadly enough we are throwing most of it under the bus. 

[RevTestament]

31 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

No, by no means....As I've said it turns me completely off when Mormons change or dilute theirs to fit mainstream Christianity....As I've mentioned I did love Joseph's Mormon Doctrines...Sadly enough we are throwing most of it under the bus. 

Well, who is "we"? And specifically what are we throwing under the bus then if none of the basic principles have been changed? I certainly feel like I believe and try to adhere to the same basic principles of the gospel as JS. Indeed, I agree with him wholeheartedly except for on a few things which I feel were his opinion - he seemed to come to the belief that temporal polygamy is exalting for instance - that is a belief I don't particularly share, In other words I do not believe one needs more than one temporal wife to be exalted.  I believe he reached a belief that Jesus was going to return within decades - another personal opinion of his which wasn't correct. But on the whole I would say I believe he was spot on - certainly his interpretations of scripture regarding the basic salvific doctrines of the gospel I agree with. I seem to also stand with him on the oracles of God so far as he understood them.

If you are talking about the various opinions which have been rendered by various GAs on the nature of the Godhead since that time, I say so what? Men have been struggling to understand God since the word came into the world. I don't expect them to always be right. I'm entitled to my belief. Beliefs about these things don't change the fact that the Church is the true church set up by Christ and has the true priesthood, and authority to act on God's behalf.

[Jim Stiles]

19 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

       You forgot Faith in The Lord Jesus Christ, Repentance which are the 1st 2 principles of the Gospel which we Believe and teach.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace    

Anakin7

Fair cop.  Here is the new list:

The steps for exaltation according to Mormonism (feel free to make corrections):

1. Faith in Jesus
2. Repentance
3. Baptism by Immersion for the Remission of Sins
4. Confirmation and Receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost
5. Ordination to the Priesthood (for Men)
6. The Temple Endowment
7. Temple Marriage: Sealed for Time and Eternity
8. Obey all of the Commandments (Grace only given after doing all that one can do.)
 

 

[Jim Stiles]

16 hours ago, RevTestament said:

My first point will be that LDS do not view "exaltation"to be the same as salvation. While you seem a decent sort, and I'm sure will be saved, without following the list you will not be exalted. So what do Calvinists say about scriptures like this:

Luke 12:48

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Quote

Luke 12:45-48 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

A faith that does not cause a change of behavior is not really faith.  Luther said that we are saved by faith, but not by a faith that is alone.

 

[RevTestament]

19 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

A faith that does not cause a change of behavior is not really faith.  Luther said that we are saved by faith, but not by a faith that is alone.

 

Yeah, Paul also said we are saved by faith... and also said we are saved by the grace of Jesus.... etc. It just goes to show that some Christians put too much emphasis on one scripture while ignoring numerous others. What does "unto whomsoever much is given much, of him shall be much required..." mean? Does that mean somehow that if we are given much grace, much faith will be required? That doesn't seem to be what Jesus is saying. What will be required? Why does Jesus say"

23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. 

Is there more than one hell? Why do the scriptures repeatedly say we shall be judged according to our works? Is there more than mere salvation?

 

[Jim Stiles]

7 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Yeah, Paul also said we are saved by faith... and also said we are saved by the grace of Jesus.... etc. It just goes to show that some Christians put too much emphasis on one scripture while ignoring numerous others. What does "unto whomsoever much is given much, of him shall be much required..." mean? Does that mean somehow that if we are given much grace, much faith will be required? That doesn't seem to be what Jesus is saying. What will be required? Why does Jesus say"

23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. 

Is there more than one hell? Why do the scriptures repeatedly say we shall be judged according to our works? Is there more than mere salvation?

 

The people in Capernaum did not believe in Jesus' message.  The mighty works done in Capernaum were done by Jesus himself.

[RevTestament]

2 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

The people in Capernaum did not believe in Jesus' message.  The mighty works done in Capernaum were done by Jesus himself.

Yep, exactly. But you seem to have a knack for avoiding my points. If Hell is the same for all people, how come those in Capernaum would suffer more than the sinners of Sodom? How come the scriptures repeatedly say we shall be judged according to our acts if there is only one salvation?

[Atheist Mormon]

7 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Well, who is "we"? And specifically what are we throwing under the bus then if none of the basic principles have been changed? I certainly feel like I believe and try to adhere to the same basic principles of the gospel as JS. Indeed, I agree with him wholeheartedly except for on a few things which I feel were his opinion - he seemed to come to the belief that temporal polygamy is exalting for instance - that is a belief I don't particularly share, In other words I do not believe one needs more than one temporal wife to be exalted.  I believe he reached a belief that Jesus was going to return within decades - another personal opinion of his which wasn't correct. But on the whole I would say I believe he was spot on - certainly his interpretations of scripture regarding the basic salvific doctrines of the gospel I agree with. I seem to also stand with him on the oracles of God so far as he understood them.

If you are talking about the various opinions which have been rendered by various GAs on the nature of the Godhead since that time, I say so what? Men have been struggling to understand God since the word came into the world. I don't expect them to always be right. I'm entitled to my belief. Beliefs about these things don't change the fact that the Church is the true church set up by Christ and has the true priesthood, and authority to act on God's behalf.

Sorry for a sec. my mind was flooded with amnesia and I thought I belonged to the tribe again....You accurately mention "I believe he reached a belief that Jesus was going to return within decades", which was naive considering Catholic church fathers ditched that dream few centuries after founding Christianity. As for your belief that "Church is the true church set up by Christ and has the true priesthood, and authority to act on God's behalf." that one is a patently/proven a pipe dream, I wish there was a way to bet on this fact instantly by me putting all my material wealth on the table instantly, or better putting my life on this fact; wouldn't it be powerful testament for God to slam an unbeliever like me publicly? Imagine what kinda publicity He's create.....When I was first angry states of my un_belief I'd invent stuff to blaspheme Holy Spirit so I could be punished...well that was a pipe dream too. I do not ridicule your belief by any means....I guess I'm trying to give you my rational testimony; "Nothing Supernatural that cannot be explained by physical Laws exists",.... so far at least

[RevTestament]

20 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Sorry for a sec. my mind was flooded with amnesia and I thought I belonged to the tribe again....You accurately mention "I believe he reached a belief that Jesus was going to return within decades", which was naive considering Catholic church fathers ditched that dream few centuries after founding Christianity. As for your belief that "Church is the true church set up by Christ and has the true priesthood, and authority to act on God's behalf." that one is a patently/proven a pipe dream, I wish there was a way to bet on this fact instantly by me putting all my material wealth on the table instantly, or better putting my life on this fact; wouldn't it be powerful testament for God to slam an unbeliever like me publicly? Imagine what kinda publicity He's create.....When I was first angry states of my un_belief I'd invent stuff to blaspheme Holy Spirit so I could be punished...well that was a pipe dream too. I do not ridicule your belief by any means....I guess I'm trying to give you my rational testimony; "Nothing Supernatural that cannot be explained by physical Laws exists",.... so far at least

Well, sorry if I'm confused. I guess I don't understand what it is you are saying Mormons have departed from - a belief that God exists within the realms of physical laws? R U decrying the philosophical approach to Mormonism? I am sorry you feel the true Church and priesthood are a  pipedream. With that idea I am wondering what tribe you thought you belonged to?

Edited May 24, 2016 by RevTestament

[Atheist Mormon]

47 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Well, sorry if I'm confused. I guess I don't understand what it is you are saying Mormons have departed from - a belief that God exists within the realms of physical laws? R U decrying the philosophical approach to Mormonism? I am sorry you feel the true Church and priesthood are a  pipedream. With that idea I am wondering what tribe you thought you belonged to?

The Tribe I was I was talking about was yours, happy days in the past....So, you do not observe that Mormons are walking away from the doctrines made them unique? How else plainly I can write?

About the "pipedream"; that encompasses the whole belief in religion, Mormon Priesthood is one of them. The God you believe cannot exist in the realms of physical laws, that's what I was trying to say.

[RevTestament]

55 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

The Tribe I was I was talking about was yours, happy days in the past....So, you do not observe that Mormons are walking away from the doctrines made them unique? How else plainly I can write?

I believe the Church has changed over the last 190 years. Some changes I like, and some I don't as much. I am glad most do not believe heavenly Father "married" Mary. I am glad the temple endowment has been made more biblical and appropriate. I am glad that the church has stepped away from some of the racism that was evident in its ranks. There have been a number of changes for the better. "Happy days" - does that include the persecution in Missouri or the trek out west? No thanks. I have had my own hardships to contend with, and don't need those. Further, I believe that the basic gospel (& biblical) principals which made the Church "unique" are still quite present as restored. Those who are walking away, I believe are doing so because they are having trouble reconciling what they believed with some of what they run across from critics. I believe that is a somewhat general phenomena in much of modern Christianity, and is not isolated to our Church at all.

Quote

About the "pipedream"; that encompasses the whole belief in religion, Mormon Priesthood is one of them. The God you believe cannot exist in the realms of physical laws, that's what I was trying to say.

Oh, if you say so. It really doesn't matter to me if God solely operates in the realms of physical laws. In my experience He is capable of things we would consider to be "supernatural." BTW there is no such thing as "Mormon Priesthood." Cheers.

 

[Jim Stiles]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Yep, exactly. But you seem to have a knack for avoiding my points. If Hell is the same for all people, how come those in Capernaum would suffer more than the sinners of Sodom? How come the scriptures repeatedly say we shall be judged according to our acts if there is only one salvation?

I know of no real Christian who claims that hell is equally bad for all those sent there.  Clearly Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin are going to get worse than Friedrich Nietzsche is going to get.

[RevTestament]

13 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

I know of no real Christian who claims that hell is equally bad for all those sent there.  Clearly Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin are going to get worse than Friedrich Nietzsche is going to get.

But all Christians will get the same?

[Jim Stiles]

17 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

But all Christians will get the same?

There will be rewards for exceptionally good works.  But all crowns will be placed at Jesus feet.  Ultimately, He gets the glory, not us.

[boblloyd91]

31 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

There will be rewards for exceptionally good works.  But all crowns will be placed at Jesus feet.  Ultimately, He gets the glory, not us.

I actually agree with you on this Jim

[boblloyd91]

1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said:

I know of no real Christian who claims that hell is equally bad for all those sent there.  Clearly Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin are going to get worse than Friedrich Nietzsche is going to get.

I'm talking with 3DOP about my reading of  Dante's inferno discussing this very concept, I didn't know that those holding to a Calvinistic theology believed that. I always thought it was more of a blanket condemnation in the opinion of Protestant theologians

[RevTestament]

45 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said:

I'm talking with 3DOP about my reading of  Dante's inferno discussing this very concept, I didn't know that those holding to a Calvinistic theology believed that. I always thought it was more of a blanket condemnation in the opinion of Protestant theologians

Jim is turning out to be a very unusual Calvinist...he might experience some exaltation yet...after he spends some time in Democratic hell for being an anarcho-capitalist that is

Edited May 25, 2016 by RevTestament

[Anakin7]

12 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Well, who is "we"? And specifically what are we throwing under the bus then if none of the basic principles have been changed? I certainly feel like I believe and try to adhere to the same basic principles of the gospel as JS. Indeed, I agree with him wholeheartedly except for on a few things which I feel were his opinion - he seemed to come to the belief that temporal polygamy is exalting for instance - that is a belief I don't particularly share, In other words I do not believe one needs more than one temporal wife to be exalted.  I believe he reached a belief that Jesus was going to return within decades - another personal opinion of his which wasn't correct. But on the whole I would say I believe he was spot on - certainly his interpretations of scripture regarding the basic salvific doctrines of the gospel I agree with. I seem to also stand with him on the oracles of God so far as he understood them.

If you are talking about the various opinions which have been rendered by various GAs on the nature of the Godhead since that time, I say so what? Men have been struggling to understand God since the word came into the world. I don't expect them to always be right. I'm entitled to my belief. Beliefs about these things don't change the fact that the Church is the true church set up by Christ and has the true priesthood, and authority to act on God's behalf.

      Good observation.

In his Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Edited May 25, 2016 by Anakin7

[Jim Stiles]

1 hour ago, boblloyd91 said:

I'm talking with 3DOP about my reading of  Dante's inferno discussing this very concept, I didn't know that those holding to a Calvinistic theology believed that. I always thought it was more of a blanket condemnation in the opinion of Protestant theologians

While I do not agree with the idea of Purgatory, Dante's Divine Comedy is pretty good theology in places.

Think of it as a 14th century Chick Tract.

[Anakin7]

42 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

While I do not agree with the idea of Purgatory, Dante's Divine Comedy is pretty good theology in places.

Think of it as a 14th century Chick Tract.

I have been to one of Jack Chick's Headquarters - one is approx 20-30 minutes from my Home. I get a strange feeling of the atmosphere once in the building.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7