Breaking priesthood Covenant?

[Duncan]

I have had friends who had their names removed, who were MP bearers, I just wonder if they are breaking that covenant or just releasing themselves from it. I don't think they lived debauched lives or anything or currently do but I wonder what will happen to them

[VideoGameJunkie]

13 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I have had friends who had their names removed, who were MP bearers, I just wonder if they are breaking that covenant or just releasing themselves from it. I don't think they lived debauched lives or anything or currently do but I wonder what will happen to 

[VideoGameJunkie]

I think temple Covenants made before God angels and witnesses is pretty hard to release yourself from. I'm pretty sure sacred Covenants are eternal and breaking them and not repenting is pretty serious. At least thats how I see the seriousness of Covenants, otherwise what's the point of even making them?

[Bobbieaware]

4 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

What about people who put temple ordinances online and violate their sacredness on purpose? 

The degree of punishment God metes upon those who turn away from the truth is in direct proportion to the degree of spiritual knowledge (testimony) they obtained prior to turning away. For those who don't possess a sure knowledge of the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel prior turning away, a temporary sojourn in the spirit prison may be all that's necessary to bring them to genuine contrition and sincere repentance. But for those who turn away from the truth after having received a SURE KNOWLEDGE of the Restored Gospel by the power of the Holy Ghost, the scriptures indicate there is nothing that can restore them to contrition and repentance because such individuals have totally rejected God while still residing within the holy light of spiritual noonday, and for this reason give themselves over wholly to the anti-Christ spirit and power of the devil. There are relatively view members who obtain a sure knowledge while in mortality, and for this reason the number of the sons of perdition will be relatively few. For most of those who turn away from the truth and fight against the Restored Church, because they never had a sure knowledge relegation to a lower kingdom of glory will be punishment enough.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Vanguard]

23 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

The degree of punishment God metes upon those who turn away from the truth is in direct proportion to the degree of spiritual knowledge (testimony) they obtained prior to turning away. For those who don't possess a sure knowledge of the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel prior turning away, a temporary sojourn in the spirit prison may be all that's necessary to bring them to genuine contrition and sincere repentance. But for those who turn away from the truth, after having received a SURE KNOWLEDGE of the Restored Gospel by the power of the Holy Ghost, the scriptures indicate there is nothing that can restore them to contrition and repentance because such individuals have totally rejected God while still residing within the holy light of spiritual noonday, and for this reason give themselves over wholly to the anti-Christ spirit and power of the devil. There are relatively view members who obtain a sure knowledge while in mortality, and for this reason the number of the sons of perdition will be relatively few. For most of those who turn away from the truth and fight against the Restored Church, because they never had a sure knowledge relegation to a lower kingdom of glory will be punishment enough.

I'm essentially in agreement with everything until your final sentence. You don't know if "most" will be relegated to a lower kingdom. That knowledge must first take into account the individual capacity of said individual and there's no way for you and me to know this. Given that, it stands to reason there can be any number of these individuals who will inherit the highest glory. 

[Sky]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

I have had friends who had their names removed, who were MP bearers, I just wonder if they are breaking that covenant or just releasing themselves from it. I don't think they lived debauched lives or anything or currently do but I wonder what will happen to them

I know people in this situation, too.  And generally, I think we need to be really cautious about putting anyone in the irredeemable category.  We simply don't know what their final fate will be.  Ultimately, only God can judge.  People can be re-baptized and have their priesthood and temple blessings restored if they are willing to go through all the steps.  It can even be done post-humously if approved by the First Presidency, so there is hope...       

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

The answer is very simple. Doctrine and Covenants 76 informs us that the only individuals who will not receive forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come are the sons of perdition. Therefore, when the above verse speaks of those who altogether (100%) turn away from the Lord and the sacred covenants they've made with him, it's speaking of those who commit the unpardonable sin by totally and irrevocably turning away from God while standing in the bright spiritual light of noonday. Those doomed to suffer as sons of perdition will never be forgiven because they have absolutely no desire to be forgiven.

Must they have knowledge of light and truth beforehand?  If so, does that imply esoteric light and knowledge?

[Bobbieaware]

42 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I'm essentially in agreement with everything until your final sentence. You don't know if "most" will be relegated to a lower kingdom. That knowledge must first take into account the individual capacity of said individual and there's no way for you and me to know this. Given that, it stands to reason there can be any number of these individuals who will inherit the highest glory. 

I believe there will at least be some because, after all, the atonement's miraculous power is infinite and eternal, and it's for this reason that Christ said all things are possible with God.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Bobbieaware]

22 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Must they have knowledge of light and truth beforehand?  If so, does that imply esoteric light and knowledge?

Ah, shades of Gnosticism! That's a good question, Robert. Let me think about it and I'll get back to you no later than tomorrow night.

[Lemuel]

Here's another possibility: 

 

If one obtains this priesthood, their body is renewed.  Anyone here have their body renewed?

Quote

 33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.

 

Have any of us received the Lord?

Quote

 35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;

I think most of us fall into the latter category of those who "come not unto this priesthood."

Quote

 

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

 42 And wo unto all those who come not unto this priesthood which ye have received, which I now confirm upon you who are present this day, by mine own voice out of the heavens; and even I have given the heavenly hosts and mine angels charge concerning you.

 

 

Perhaps we only have something a little more preparatory:

Quote

 

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

 24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

 25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

 26 And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;

 

 

 

 

[Vanguard]

14 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

I believe there will at least be some because, after all, the atonement's miraculous power is infinite and eternal, and it's for this reason that Christ said all things are possible with God.

Well, I believe there will be some also though not based on any collective behavioral litmus that you seem to be suggesting. Similarly, there will be some who are relegated to a lower kingdom who did not appear to "fight against the restored gospel". Given that, it doesn't look like we know that any identifiable behaviors are indicators for this final destination. Would you agree?

[Bobbieaware]

46 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Well, I believe there will be some also though not based on any collective behavioral litmus that you seem to be suggesting. Similarly, there will be some who are relegated to a lower kingdom who did not appear to "fight against the restored gospel". Given that, it doesn't look like we know that any identifiable behaviors are indicators for this final destination. Would you agree?

Not really. It seems to me that by the time this mortal drama draws to a close (a probationary period that includes the time spent in the spirit world after death) at the time of the final judgment, those who are judged by God's omniscient mind to be the most faithful and valiant in the cause of Christ will receive the greatest rewards, while -- in a descending order of glory --  those who are judged by our omniscient Lord to be not as faithful and valiant in the cause of Christ will receive lesser rewards. But as straight forward and uncomplicated as this method for determining worthiness might be, it must also be acknowledged that mankind will also be judged by the honesty, integrity and sincerity they exhibited while following the Lord. The formula is very simple, "as a man soweth, so shall he also reap."

Edited May 12, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Vanguard]

26 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Not really. It seems to me that by the time this mortal drama draws to a close (a probationary period that includes the time spent in the spirit world after death) at the time of the final judgment, those who are judged by God's omniscient mind to be the most faithful and valiant in the cause of Christ will receive the greatest rewards, while -- in a descending order of glory --  those who are judged by our omniscient Lord to be not as faithful and valiant in the cause of Christ will receive lesser rewards. But as straight forward and uncomplicated as this method for determining worthiness might be, it must also be acknowledged that mankind will also be judged by the honesty, integrity and sincerity they exhibited while following the Lord. The formula is very simple, "as a man soweth, so shall he also reap."

I would add only one rejoinder - "as informed by that man's capacity". And therein lies the rub - we know no man's capacity. And therefore, any particular man's behaviors are virtually meaningless to us as an indicator of his final destination.

[Bobbieaware]

52 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I would add only one rejoinder - "as informed by that man's capacity". And therein lies the rub - we know no man's capacity. And therefore, any particular man's behaviors are virtually meaningless to us as an indicator of his final destination.

How does the oft-presented scriptural theme that God is able to greatly increase our natural-born earthly capacities fit into your thinking? Are not the scriptures full of promises that life in this fallen mortal state is not a zero sum game (that we are stuck with the limited talents and abilities we were born with), but that our natural capacities are capable of being increasingly enlarged until we arrive at the point when we are spiritually transformed from fallen mortals into men and women of true holiness and divine power? In fact, the scriptures teach us that the mortal weaknesses we are born with are no excuse for failure if we neglect to engage in the divinely-provided opportunity to grow dynamically in the grace and power of God. If we fail to acquire the gifts and powers of God in this life, and we fail to grow spiritually as a consequence, we will have nobody to blame for our failure but ourselves

Edited May 12, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Vanguard]

9 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

How does the oft-presented scriptural theme that God is able to greatly increase our natural-born earthly capacities fit into your thinking? Are not the scriptures full of promises that life in this fallen mortal state is not a zero sum game (that we are stuck with the limited talents and abilities we were born with), but that our natural capacities are capable of being increasingly enlarged until we arrive at the point when we are spiritually transformed from fallen mortals into men and women of true holiness and divine power? In fact, the scriptures teach us that the mortal weaknesses we are born with are no excuse for failure if we neglect to engage in the divinely-provided opportunity to grow dynamically in the grace and power of God. If we fail to acquire the gifts and powers of God in this life, and we fail to grow spiritually as a consequence, we will have nobody to blame for our failure but ourselves

Indeed, the scriptures are full of such promises. We do grow in the grace and power of God - I never meant to suggest otherwise. My point is only that neither YOU nor I can determine to what extent another's individual capacity has been enlarged. Enlargement - yes, to what extent - who knows? And if we don't know, we also don't know what said individual is capable of doing. Certainly you're not suggesting that we all literally have the same capacity to express our worship, obedience, and devotion in like manner?

[The Nehor]

16 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Moroni?  

No, you need a hexagram for that summoning. What are they teaching in schools these days?  

[flameburns623]

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Wiccans are play acting wannabes. Hunt down a real demonologist.

Even the Luciferians I have met are pretty much not interested in demons.

They have odd ideas: Lucifer and Christ are the same person, Jesus was an imposter, etcetera.

Apart from their eccentric notions, they were mainly interested in seeing good things happen in the world.

[salgare]

21 hours ago, Duncan said:

In the 84th Section verse 41 it says

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

 

 

So my question is how do you break this covenant? is it through excommunication, inactivity, apathy, self righteousness? any tips?

Well you need to read a bunch leading into this.  You know about the promises on the other side of the covenant.  i.e. the administration of angels and the knowledge of the mysteries of God and his Kingdom.

I'd suggest if you have not received the promised blessing then you have not received the covenant and there is nothing yet for you to break.

Of course like your other thread about blessing in relationship to callings, most Mormons put the burden of the said contract on themselves, when they assume that they have received these covenants in the Temple and yet have not been worthy enough (typically in works and giving everything to the Church) to have received the blessing of the Oath and Covenant and so the pattern repeats, its going to be a failure on the members part that not only were the blessing never received but that that are damned for not becoming worthy of them.  They have somehow broken the contract.

Raise of hands ... how many here have received the promised blessing of the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood?  Old school believed this would have been one's calling and election, with Jesus washing your feet.

Seems they don't talk of these things anymore, and yet the burden of the contract lays on you.  That's nasty stuff.

Edited May 12, 2016 by salgare

[ERayR]

19 hours ago, Duncan said:

do you think it's possible to be active but still breaking your part of the covenant? I mean like people who go to church but are jerks or lazy or just don't really care about the gospel or are in it for themselves and not to serve

Yup.  Being a jerk is a good start and then go on from there.  Abuse you wife and kids abandon them. Just for starters.

[Bobbieaware]

4 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Indeed, the scriptures are full of such promises. We do grow in the grace and power of God - I never meant to suggest otherwise. My point is only that neither YOU nor I can determine to what extent another's individual capacity has been enlarged. Enlargement - yes, to what extent - who knows? And if we don't know, we also don't know what said individual is capable of doing. Certainly you're not suggesting that we all literally have the same capacity to express our worship, obedience, and devotion in like manner?

.... and I never meant to suggest that anyone other than God is our ultimate judge. I was merely setting forth some of revealed principles of the Restored Gospel that pertain to God"s perfectly just and merciful plan of salvation. 

As to your question: while it's true we are all born with differing degrees of talent and natural ability, it's equally true that each son and daughter of God is free -- through the atonement -- to draw deeply from the wellspring of God's infinite and eternal power of divine capacitation any time he or she wishes to do so. Therefore, the atoning sacrifice of the Christ is the great equalizer that makes everything perfectly just and fair so that there is no justification for griping and complaints. But in spite of this radical and immutable freedom to grow spiritually any time we desire to do so, the great "wild card" in all of this is what role pre-mortal worthiness plays as to where and when spiritual opportunities are afforded to each individual dwelling in mortality? 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Thinking]

Is there a difference between how a man will be judged in the two scenarios listed below?

A. A man is ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood, but later comes to believe that the LDS Church is not what it claims to be. He therefore does not believe that the covenant he made was with God, but was with a man-made organization under false pretenses.

B. A man is ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood, but later grows tired of keeping the commandments. He quits attending and participating in priesthood meetings and activities.

[Bobbieaware]

2 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Is there a difference between how a man will be judged in the two scenarios listed below?

A. A man is ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood, but later comes to believe that the LDS Church is not what it claims to be. He therefore does not believe that the covenant he made was with God, but was with a man-made organization under false pretenses.

B. A man is ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood, but later grows tired of keeping the commandments. He quits attending and participating in priesthood meetings and activities.

While appearing to be somewhat different, both types of lapses are caused by a loss of faith; so when it comes to how they'll be judged, it's probably six of one and a half dozen of the other. In both imstances, a minimization of the importance of maintaining a relationship with God lies at the root of the change in attitude.

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

Is there a difference between how a man will be judged in the two scenarios listed below?

A. A man is ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood, but later comes to believe that the LDS Church is not what it claims to be. He therefore does not believe that the covenant he made was with God, but was with a man-made organization under false pretenses.

B. A man is ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood, but later grows tired of keeping the commandments. He quits attending and participating in priesthood meetings and activities.

or someone who is ordained but are spiritually stagnant/self righteous, they aren't progressing in knowledge, testimony or love for others. I and I assume others know guys who think they are God's gift to the Church and what would we do without them?....

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

Even the Luciferians I have met are pretty much not interested in demons.

They have odd ideas: Lucifer and Christ are the same person, Jesus was an imposter, etcetera.

Apart from their eccentric notions, they were mainly interested in seeing good things happen in the world.

The groups that follow Ayn Rand's philosophy may want to see good things but they serve their professed master well.

[Bobbieaware]

18 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Ah, shades of Gnosticism! That's a good question, Robert. Let me think about it and I'll get back to you no later than tomorrow night.

Duplicate

Edited May 12, 2016 by Bobbieaware