Sad, Stereotypical Surrender to Cynicism

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

I didn't cop out.  I did and believed was I told.  Can't you get that?  I. Was. Taught. This. over and over again.

Edited to add:  I talked today to my hometown best friend and cousin.  She is very active and I love her so much.  She stated that she has lived with this very idea of following the prophets and remembered my devotional and the things that we were taught together. 

I have been taught it as well.

Even to this day, if I question some utterance of the 15 as possibly wrong, I am told to stop my apostate thinking.

For me, the prevailing attitude I see is that when church leaders speak, any thinking that is acceptable is only the thinking that leads one to agree with what church leaders have said.

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

I have been taught it as well.

Even to this day, if I question some utterance of the 15 as possibly wrong, I am told to stop my apostate thinking.

For me, the prevailing attitude I see is that when church leaders speak, any thinking that is acceptable is only the thinking that leads one to agree with what church leaders have said.

And the sad thing is, if the thinking leads to some disagreement or question, you are wrong,.and it is YOUR fault that you are wrong.

[Scott Lloyd]

44 minutes ago, ALarson said:

You probably won't get any answers (just like I didn't for the question I asked yesterday).  The reason you won't get an answer is there is essentially no difference in the two concepts ("the thinking has been done" vs. "the debate is over"). 

But, it would be nice to see thoughts or responses to the questions you ask.

But I did answer his post, within 20 minutes after I saw it.

I hope by now you have seen my response. And I hope you can sooner or later understand the essential difference when considered in context.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[JulieM]

3 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

And the sad thing is, if the thinking leads to some disagreement or question, you are wrong,.and it is YOUR fault that you are wrong.

So technically of course, you can think about it as long as you don't vocalize any disagreement or debate about anything a Prophet has spoken.

So, the end result is identical 

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, JulieM said:

So technically of course, you can think about it as long as you don't vocalize any disagreement or debate about anything a Prophet has spoken.

So, the end result is identical 

i get you JulieM..the end result is the same.  Sad though that we can kindly vocalize because I believe it stunts our growth and learning experiences.  It was hard for me  sometimes in Gospel Doctrine class to "zip it"..and not say a word.  I really wanted to learn.

[Bobbieaware]

21 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Just so I can understand where you are coming from, could you answer a couple of questions for me?

Consider the statement, "When the Prophet has spoken, the debate is over."  Do you agree with President Marion G. Romney this statement conveys deep spiritual meaning for Latter-day Saints? 

If you agree with him that that statement is profoundly true, could you compare and contrast it to, "When the Prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done?"  I claim it has the exact same meaning. 

If you think President Romney was wrong about this and that the core message of his article, The Debate is Over was ironically leading the Church astray, please let us know.  That would both clarify and prove your point.

There's is a very big difference between saying "the THINKING is over" and "the DEBATE is over." I say this because when it comes the prophetic pronouncements found in the scriptures, the Latter-day Saints have been constantly taught from the beginning that the thinking about the words of those prophets has only just begun. The members of the Church are constantly counseled to read the words of the prophets, study the words of the prophets, ponder over the words of the prophets, search the words of the prophets, meditate over the words of the prophets, remember the words of the prophets, try hard to understand and comprehend the words of the prophets, pray over the words of the prophets, and seek confirming personal revelation from God that the words of the prophets are true --  and it goes without saying that doing all of this requires are great deal of thinking. So since reading, studying, pondering, searching, meditating over, remembering, understanding, comprehending, praying over, and receiving confirming personal revelation about the words of the prophets is such a major component of what the Gospel of Christ is all about, it seems ludicrous that one would think it's good, proper and beneficial to stop thinking when the living apostles and prophets speak. So there is a very big difference between debating and disagreeing with prophets and expending great intellectual effort on what it is they have to say..

[Analytics]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The article you direct me to was not written by Marion G. Romney. It was written by N. Eldon Tanner. Just how familiar are you with it?

I read it earlier today.  Thank you for correcting me on the attribution; both Romney and Tanner died when I was young and I easily confuse them.

 

Quote

I'm happy to draw such a contrast by pointing out a passage in the article that you appear to have missed or perhaps are intent on ignoring:

 

(Emphasis mine)

Here, President Tanner directly contradicts what you are trying to impute to him: "[The Latter-day Saints] are not, as some would suggest, following blindly and acting without their own agency to speak and think for themselves."

It looks like you missed my post on page 25 where I not only quoted this same passage, I even highlighted the same section you did.  You can't accuse me of missing it or ignoring it.

To make sure I understand what you are saying, do you think the Church employee who wrote the home teaching message was instructing Latter-day Saints to "blindly follow and act without their own agency to speak and think for themselves?"  There are really only two options here: either the Church employee that wrote the message was in fact suggesting that very thing, or he meant something else by the phrase.  Are you sure it is the former rather than the latter?

I don't think the Church employee was suggesting the Latter-day Saints blindly follow and act without their own agency to speak and think for themselves.  I think he was using the following definition of the word, "think."

think: verb (used without object), thought, thinking.

5- to consider something as a possible action, choice, etc.:

She thought about cutting her hair.

If that's what he meant, then "the thinking has been done" means exactly what the point was of the home teaching message in its entirety, which is exactly the same point of President Tanner's "The debate is over."  The president has spoken, we are no longer going to debate the point, and we are no longer going to consider other possible actions or choices (i.e. we are no longer going to think about it).  Rather, we are going to follow the Prophet.

 

To me, that is the plain meaning of the phrase.

 

So as a final follow-up question, is the following concept is taught in Church?

 

"When the Prophet has spoken, other possible actions and choices are no longer considered."

 

I believe the Church does teach that, which is exactly the same thing as teaching that when the Prophet has spoken, the debate is over, which is exactly the same thing as teaching that when the Prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done.

 

Edited May 13, 2016 by Analytics

[Scott Lloyd]

21 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I have been taught it as well.

Even to this day, if I question some utterance of the 15 as possibly wrong, I am told to stop my apostate thinking.

For me, the prevailing attitude I see is that when church leaders speak, any thinking that is acceptable is only the thinking that leads one to agree with what church leaders have said.

Who tells you to stop your apostate thinking? From what you've said here, you are rather highly thought of in your ward and even serve in the bishopric.

Do you mean that people here tell you that? From what I can see, there are vigorous challenges to some of the progmo things you are apt to say here, but is that the same as telling you to "stop [your] apostate thinking"?

[ALarson]

26 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I have been taught it as well.

Even to this day, if I question some utterance of the 15 as possibly wrong, I am told to stop my apostate thinking.

Or, you're immediately accused of calling the Apostle a liar (if you disagree with something they state).  One or the other.  

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, Analytics said:

To make sure I understand what you are saying, do you think the Church employee who wrote the home teaching message was instructing Latter-day Saints to "blindly follow and act without their own agency to speak and think for themselves?" 

The relevant matter is the meaning that antagonists and dissidents impute to this statement when they repeat it over and over to denounce the Church.

[Analytics]

16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The relevant matter is the meaning that antagonists and dissidents impute to this statement when they repeat it over and over to denounce the Church.

Now we are getting somewhere. Julienna said:

When the prophet speaks the thinking is NOT done because he could be wrong as many have been in the past and present time.

In other words, she is saying that when the prophet has spoken the debate is not over; her point is that the decision is not made when the prophet has spoken because he might be wrong. She is rejecting the concept that we should always follow the prophet, even when he is wrong.

She is in fact rejecting what the church does in fact teach.

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Who tells you to stop your apostate thinking? From what you've said here, you are rather highly thought of in your ward and even serve in the bishopric.

Do you mean that people here tell you that? From what I can see, there are vigorous challenges to some of the progmo things you are apt to say here, but is that the same as telling you to "stop [your] apostate thinking"?

Family and people here.  

The emphasis in that statement is on calling it apostate, not the "stop" part.   You know as well as I do that my thoughts are frequently deemed apostate. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

35 minutes ago, rockpond said:

The emphasis in that statement is on calling it apostate, not the "stop" part.   You know as well as I do that my thoughts are frequently deemed apostate. 

So you desire the liberty to think apostate thoughts but would prefer that others not have the liberty to deem them apostate?

Edited May 13, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[smac97]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Family and people here.  

The emphasis in that statement is on calling it apostate, not the "stop" part.   You know as well as I do that my thoughts are frequently deemed apostate. 

"Apostasy" is a serious charge.  I would hope that Latter-day Saints would be very hesitant in using it as a label, particularly since would seem to be the province of priesthood leaders to make such a determination, not self-selected acquaintances who take it upon themselves to say such things.

Thanks,

-Smac

[rockpond]

24 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"Apostasy" is a serious charge.  I would hope that Latter-day Saints would be very hesitant in using it as a label, particularly since would seem to be the province of priesthood leaders to make such a determination, not self-selected acquaintances who take it upon themselves to say such things.

Thanks,

-Smac

Well, I haven't noted much hesitancy. 

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

So you desire the liberty to think apostate thoughts but would prefer that others not have the liberty to deem them apostate?

No.  You missed the point.  

If thinking a thought that disagrees with church leaders is apostate, than effectively you ARE telling members that the "thinking is done" after the leader speaks.   

 

 And a goodnight to everyone.