Bishop Waddell on the great and spacious building

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, salgare said:

What you will see here Steve is that the apologists (bluebell in this case) hold to an old apologetic history of attacking individuals to discount the issues they present.  In two posts, bluebell has accused me of not being trustworthy, of being biased, that her view of the church is more valuable than mine, and that I have left my faith.  The last one triggered some anger, but I counted to ten.

But I'm not clear on what Steve is looking for.  I gathered it was discovery.  What exactly are you looking for Steve?

We are all biased. 

And I specifically said I wasn't saying you aren't trustworthy. 

If someone wants to understand a belief from a believer's perspective, then the believer's perspective is more valuable than a non believer. That's not an insult it's just a basic fact. 

If Steve wants to understand Mormonism from a nonbeliever' perspective then your thoughts would be more valuable than mine. 

Again, just a simple fact. 

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I did get it.  Love Elvis  I replied this way because I figured I wouldn't get in any hot water and still put my thought across without being such a stinker and horrible person that was implied by Bluebell.

Then I'm glad you got the joke. 

The older I get, the fewer people seem to grasp my pop-culture allusions 

[bluebell]

18 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I did get it.  Love Elvis  I replied this way because I figured I wouldn't get in any hot water and still put my thought across without being such a stinker and horrible person that was implied by Raingirl.

Thank you for editing your post. It still uses my name in Scott's reply and I couldn't figure out what I had done to you!

[salgare]

You are still accusing me of being a nonbeliever?

[Jeanne]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Then I'm glad you got the joke. 

The older I get, the fewer people seem to grasp my pop-culture allusions 

We both need some sweaty scarves to throw around so people can identify us oldies but goodies.  I have the biggest fun at work with our young co-workers that can't name all the Beatles.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

We are all biased. 

And I specifically said I wasn't saying you aren't trustworthy. 

If someone wants to understand a belief from a believer's perspective, then the believer's perspective is more valuable than a non believer. That's not an insult it's just a basic fact. 

If Steve wants to understand Mormonism from a nonbeliever' perspective then your thoughts would be more valuable than mine. 

Again, just a simple fact. 

And, in theory at least, if something is "virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy" (see 13th Article of Faith), one is not going to be well-served by going to a hostile critic to find out about that thing, except perhaps as a purely academic exercise to try to figure out the critc's mindset. 

[Jeanne]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Thank you for editing your post. It still uses my name in Scott's reply and I couldn't figure out what I had done to you!

I had been to so many threads..and wanted to make sure..I am glad I fixed it too! 

3 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

 

 

[Steve Noel]

I don't want to get into the middle of this argument, but bluebell has rightly expressed what I'm after. 

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

We both need some sweaty scarves to throw around so people can identify us oldies but goodies.  I have the biggest fun at work with our young co-workers that can't name all the Beatles.

You mean there are people walking around in society today who can't name all the Beatles? Say it isn't so!

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

With the judgment you judge so shall you be judged.

Tell that to Mr. Lloyd and so many other self righteous latter day saints that post here.

Me, I strive to not judge.  Scott may be right.  McGregor may be right. You may be right?  I may be wrong. I am open. I own my bad behavior and while I am a skeptic I am open to anywhere God, if God is there, may lead me, in or out of the LDS Church.

Are you or others who 'know" the LDS is true open to such a path?

 

Seems like "telling it" to someone is to pass judgement. I have a great desire to hold on to the iron rod because I want the fruit of the tree for me and the ones I love....and everyone else including you.  I have walked the path long enough to know where it leads and to absolutely know that happiness cannot be found in the great and spacious building. 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Steve Noel said:

I have only been here a few days, but it is becoming evident to me that this is not the best place to learn about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In a previous post Storm Rider brought up the wide range of both LDS & non-LDS heterodoxy here. I have also been cautioned about this from another member through private messaging.  I joined under the assumption that I would be mostly interacting with "mainstream" Mormons. Boanerges mentioned in that same thread that LDS.net would be a better place for getting an orthodox LDS viewpoint (he wrote "heterodox," but I think he meant orthodox). So I will primarily be interacting over there. From what I've seen thus far there are some solid LDS folks here who know their stuff. I don't know if that is the case over there. I may chirp in from time to time here, but probably not a whole lot. Thanks.

Which is precisely why I pointed you to the official declarations of the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 Apostles for information about our beliefs. Best wishes...hope you come back.

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, salgare said:

My only concern is for poor 3DOP wandering about aimless in the mists of darkness.

3DOP is quite capable of finding his way.

[flameburns623]

11 hours ago, Steve Noel said:

I have only been here a few days, but it is becoming evident to me that this is not the best place to learn about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In a previous post Storm Rider brought up the wide range of both LDS & non-LDS heterodoxy here. I have also been cautioned about this from another member through private messaging.  

I joined under the assumption that I would be mostly interacting with "mainstream" Mormons.  

Boanerges mentioned in that same thread that LDS.net would be a better place for getting an orthodox LDS viewpoint (he wrote "heterodox," but I think he meant orthodox). So I will primarily be interacting over there. From what I've seen thus far there are some solid LDS folks here who know their stuff. I don't know if that is the case over there. I may chirp in from time to time here, but probably not a whole lot. Thanks.

Originally this board wes a direct appendage of FairMormon and had a fair number of True Believing Mormons. This was a go-to place for questions and doubts. There were heterodox participants alongside the True Believers but the faithful Mormons were here.

There have been many changes over the years and now some of the most vocal contributors tend to be persons either outside the Church or at it's periphery.

Some of these "unmembers" are very kind and helpful. Some are on their own journey home to the Church, some are destined to leave or have left.

I have found and I am finding this board helpful at times. However I also find that some participants evidence a cynicism which could jaundice one's outlook on the institutional LDS Church.

I plan to hang around, but I also intend to spend a lot of time on LDS.net.

Edited April 4, 2016 by flameburns623

[canard78]

11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

One of my favorite quotes from the general conference so far, from Bishop W. Chrisopher Waddell of the Presiding Bishopric:

My weekend in the great and spacious building:

DW and I went to see my favourite band (ever) on their arena tour on Saturday. Took the kids to a breakfast buffet yesterday and then spent the rest of the day at a theme park (10 roller coaster rides in 6 hours).

It was an awesome weekend full of smiles and joy. 

I'll catch up on the conference speakers and talks during the week. President Uchtdorf is already on my list.

This one might be too, but not for the same reasons. 

[canard78]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You mean there are people walking around in society today who can't name all the Beatles? Say it isn't so!

I help to run a junior music and drama club. The other day we were asking the juniors what songs they'd like. One said: "I don't mind, I only like the 80s music my dad listens to. Y'know... like the Beatles."

I wasn't sure to cry more at the fact that 80s is now synonymous with 60s for a teenager or that several other kids in the group turned round and said: "who?"

When I sang a few bars of Yellow Submarine they mostly responded with "oh, that song..."

Tragic

[stemelbow]

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And, in theory at least, if something is "virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy" (see 13th Article of Faith), one is not going to be well-served by going to a hostile critic to find out about that thing, except perhaps as a purely academic exercise to try to figure out the critc's mindset. 

I always read the notion that the something being lovely and praiseworthy to be something any old member can find outside the LDS religion.  It feels less likely to me that that is an ideal with positions put forth by Elder Oaks.  It feels like he is suggesting the opposite--we hold that which is lovely and praiseworthy and everyone else must hear us and not stray from what we tell you as being lovely and praiseworthy. 

[salgare]

9 hours ago, Steve Noel said:

I don't want to get into the middle of this argument, but bluebell has rightly expressed what I'm after. 

Ah, lds.net for sure then

[salgare]

9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And, in theory at least, if something is "virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy" (see 13th Article of Faith), one is not going to be well-served by going to a hostile critic to find out about that thing, except perhaps as a purely academic exercise to try to figure out the critc's mindset. 

For one trying to find out if the Church is virtuous, lovely, and of good report and praiseworthy, one would be best to get as wide a spectrum of input as possible from those deeply vested in the religion right Scott?  You would give Steve this same advice correct?  If not why not?

[Gray]

7 hours ago, canard78 said:

I help to run a junior music and drama club. The other day we were asking the juniors what songs they'd like. One said: "I don't mind, I only like the 80s music my dad listens to. Y'know... like the Beatles."

I wasn't sure to cry more at the fact that 80s is now synonymous with 60s for a teenager or that several other kids in the group turned round and said: "who?"

When I sang a few bars of Yellow Submarine they mostly responded with "oh, that song..."

Tragic

This is just sad.

But I remember being a teenager in the 1990s, and being in 80s music. I thought I was into the "old stuff". But that would be like a teenager today being really into early White Stripes albums and thinking they're listening to "old stuff." Amazing how your idea of "old" changes as you age. 

[Jeanne]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You mean there are people walking around in society today who can't name all the Beatles? Say it isn't so!

You would be surprised!!  They know Paul and Ringo..but who was the one that shot?????  When my kids were little, that was a requirement..to name the four Beatles!!

[canard78]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

This is just sad.

But I remember being a teenager in the 1990s, and being in 80s music. I thought I was into the "old stuff". But that would be like a teenager today being really into early White Stripes albums and thinking they're listening to "old stuff." Amazing how your idea of "old" changes as you age. 

Exactly. I consider owning The Killers' Hot Fuss to be a evidence of being into "current" music. My (nearly) 13yo daughter thinks otherwise.

Hey ho...

Sorry @Scott Lloyd, this is going miles off topic. I'll get back to great and spacious topics

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, canard78 said:

Exactly. I consider owning The Killers' Hot Fuss to be a evidence of being into "current" music. My (nearly) 13yo daughter thinks otherwise.

Hey ho...

Sorry @Scott Lloyd, this is going miles off topic. I'll get back to great and spacious topics

What is really sad is that my wife and kids won't let me play my guitar and sing my '60s songs around the house. They are more authoritarian than my parents ever were -- and more effective at getting their way.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, salgare said:

For one trying to find out if the Church is virtuous, lovely, and of good report and praiseworthy, one would be best to get as wide a spectrum of input as possible from those deeply vested in the religion right Scott?  You would give Steve this same advice correct?  If not why not?

In a day when people are more apt than ever to call evil good and good evil, I couldn't in good conscience recommend an "equal-time" approach to learning about the Church of Jesus Christ.

To Steve, I would say that if it's important to his peace of mind to explore what the antagonists have to say, to go ahead, but to be warned that he is more apt to be misled thereby than to be brought to a true understanding, that he should take what they have to say with the proverbial grain of salt and to check it against what more reliable sources say.

[Scott Lloyd]

9 hours ago, canard78 said:

My weekend in the great and spacious building:

DW and I went to see my favourite band (ever) on their arena tour on Saturday. Took the kids to a breakfast buffet yesterday and then spent the rest of the day at a theme park (10 roller coaster rides in 6 hours).

It was an awesome weekend full of smiles and joy. 

I'll catch up on the conference speakers and talks during the week. President Uchtdorf is already on my list.

This one might be too, but not for the same reasons. 

Pardon, but that doesn't sound much like the great and spacious building to me. No one mocking and pointing fingers or trying to shame or pressure others into departing from the word of God.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[canard78]

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What is really sad is that my wife and kids won't let me play my guitar and sing my '60s songs around the house. They are more authoritarian than my parents ever were -- and more effective at getting their way.

The times when patriarchal authority should legitimately be used are few and far between. I think this is a case of it being justified