sheilauk Posted March 27, 2016 Posted March 27, 2016 13 hours ago, The Nehor said: From my time there I suspect there is a bank holiday almost every week. What I am saying is that we need to emulate them more. Actually we have fewer holidays than almost everyone else. There are 8 bank holiday days - January, easter, may, August and Christmas. And the USA has 10 so don't emulate us! ☺ 2
CV75 Posted March 27, 2016 Posted March 27, 2016 On 3/25/2016 at 7:35 PM, VideoGameJunkie said: Is it because they just want to focus on the Resurrection on Easter? Because Good Friday is a pretty important day. If we observed all the holy days / holidays of the Christian denominations, we'd have way too many many meetings. I think all the other activities we do to observe and celebrate the mission (life and death) of Christ (temple attendance, home/visiting teaching, seminary and institute, etc.) are far more effective in making us better disciples. We practice "Good Friday," which is a "day of atonement" (which means, traditionally, a day of fasting and penance) as our fast day every month, and more often as desired: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/fasts?lang=eng 1
UtahTexan Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 40 minutes ago, CV75 said: If we observed all the holy days / holidays of the Christian denominations, we'd have way too many many meetings. I think all the other activities we do to observe and celebrate the mission (life and death) of Christ (temple attendance, home/visiting teaching, seminary and institute, etc.) are far more effective in making us better disciples. We practice "Good Friday," which is a "day of atonement" (which means, traditionally, a day of fasting and penance) as our fast day every month, and more often as desired: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/fasts?lang=eng I have never suggested we celeb rate all holy days. But guess what? The Day our older brother suffered and died for us is a tad more important than The Feast Day for Thomas More or Sister Faustina....agreed? It is this minimizing of Good Friday that makes me really sad. I hope I never have to face our older brother and say, "hey...about that day you were beaten to a pulp, had thorns driven onto your head...were forced to carry a 120-pound cross beam, had 7-9 inch spikes driven thru your wrists and the never there to paralyze your hand and then thru your feet, then had your arms dislocated from the weight, and that day you could not breath without pushing yourself up using your feet that had a spike thru them....that day you ended up dying? Well, YOUR Church makes excuses for why we do not honor it...some even make jokes about it. Sorry about that....but we do other things so it squares it all...right? And I hope you never have to do it again because, frankly, we barely care. But we sometimes get a day off!!!!!!" 1
Scott Lloyd Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 On 3/26/2016 at 4:29 PM, Freedom said: There is no doctrinal reason to celebrate good Friday, Easter, Christmas or any other so called christian celebrations. It is a good tradition, but not something God ever requested or required. Most wards have a special Christmas service around December 25th, but it is specifically frowned upon in the handbook of instruction. The only special service we are permitted to have is the primary service in the early fall. I suspect that the reason it is not recognized by the church is to avoid the introduction of false sacraments. We have a difficult time as it is following the principles and ordinances we already have in place, adding additional man made celebrations will just muddy the water. On 3/26/2016 at 4:36 PM, Scott Lloyd said: Can you provide a quote on a Christmas service being frowned upon? Optional, perhaps, but if it is discouraged, that's news to me. On 3/27/2016 at 1:23 AM, Freedom said: I cannot quote from the church policy manual, but the only special program that is allowed is the primary presentation. Otherwise, the standard format is to be followed. We are not supposed to have numerous musical numbers and readings or the host of other variations I have seen over the years. Well, I was curious so I went looking and found this on lds.org excerpting Handbook 2. I've seen it before, actually. Quote What is the policy regarding cantatas for Easter and Christmas meetings? “If a musical program is presented, it should be simple, reverent, and short enough to allow a spoken message. Sacrament meetings should not be turned over to outside musical groups. Recitals, concerts, and pageantry are not appropriate in sacrament meeting” (Handbook 2, 14.4.4). It would seem, then, that sacrament meetings with a Christmas theme or Easter theme are not "frowned upon," discouraged or disallowed. Furthermore, such services may have one or more musical selections from the ward choir or other performers so long as the musical presentations are "short enough to allow a spoken message," the sacrament meeting is not "turned over to outside musical groups," and "recitals, concerts and pageantry" do not ensue for sacrament meeting. Most of what I've seen in sacrament meetings over the years adheres to these guidelines. You might have local leadership who forbid Christmas- or Easter-themed services, but that is not a Church-wide policy. 3
CV75 Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 13 hours ago, CountryBoy said: I have never suggested we celeb rate all holy days. But guess what? The Day our older brother suffered and died for us is a tad more important than The Feast Day for Thomas More or Sister Faustina....agreed? It is this minimizing of Good Friday that makes me really sad. I hope I never have to face our older brother and say, "hey...about that day you were beaten to a pulp, had thorns driven onto your head...were forced to carry a 120-pound cross beam, had 7-9 inch spikes driven thru your wrists and the never there to paralyze your hand and then thru your feet, then had your arms dislocated from the weight, and that day you could not breath without pushing yourself up using your feet that had a spike thru them....that day you ended up dying? Well, YOUR Church makes excuses for why we do not honor it...some even make jokes about it. Sorry about that....but we do other things so it squares it all...right? And I hope you never have to do it again because, frankly, we barely care. But we sometimes get a day off!!!!!!" The Sunday Sabbath is the only “holy day” that has been restored and commanded to be kept. Christmas and Easter are not “holy days” but the traditions of men, observed not by commandment but by the dictates of conscience. We experience the same passion for the Sacrament, every week, as you express on Good Friday but once a year. “And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day; For verily this is a day appointed unto you to …pay thy devotions unto the Most High; …remember that on this, the Lord’s day, thou shalt offer thine oblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High… And on this day thou shalt do none other thing (D&C 59 9 – 13).” And of course the Sacrament is for “remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins” (D&C 27: 2). The sacrament prayers offer great insight in to what we are to remember, and thus we do what God has commanded on the day He commanded us to do it. 2
thesometimesaint Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 40 minutes ago, CV75 said: The Sunday Sabbath is the only “holy day” that has been restored and commanded to be kept. Christmas and Easter are not “holy days” but the traditions of men, observed not by commandment but by the dictates of conscience. We experience the same passion for the Sacrament, every week, as you express on Good Friday but once a year. “And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day; For verily this is a day appointed unto you to …pay thy devotions unto the Most High; …remember that on this, the Lord’s day, thou shalt offer thine oblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High… And on this day thou shalt do none other thing (D&C 59 9 – 13).” And of course the Sacrament is for “remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins” (D&C 27: 2). The sacrament prayers offer great insight in to what we are to remember, and thus we do what God has commanded on the day He commanded us to do it. Agreed.
UtahTexan Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 8 hours ago, CV75 said: The Sunday Sabbath is the only “holy day” that has been restored and commanded to be kept. Christmas and Easter are not “holy days” but the traditions of men, observed not by commandment but by the dictates of conscience. We experience the same passion for the Sacrament, every week, as you express on Good Friday but once a year. “And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day; For verily this is a day appointed unto you to …pay thy devotions unto the Most High; …remember that on this, the Lord’s day, thou shalt offer thine oblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High… And on this day thou shalt do none other thing (D&C 59 9 – 13).” And of course the Sacrament is for “remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins” (D&C 27: 2). The sacrament prayers offer great insight in to what we are to remember, and thus we do what God has commanded on the day He commanded us to do it. My gosh. Another excuse for ignoring what your older brother did for you. I, too, do the Sacrament weekly....it honors the Last Supper, for which it was instituted. I, however, love my Older Brother and hate that He suffered horribly for what I did.....I placed those stripes on his back...I held the nails. he suffered for ME. So, I am embarrassed at thoser who keep making excuses and justifications for not honoring the day he did that.
sheilauk Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 18 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: My gosh. Another excuse for ignoring what your older brother did for you. I, too, do the Sacrament weekly....it honors the Last Supper, for which it was instituted. I, however, love my Older Brother and hate that He suffered horribly for what I did.....I placed those stripes on his back...I held the nails. he suffered for ME. So, I am embarrassed at thoser who keep making excuses and justifications for not honoring the day he did that. The sacrament doesn't honor the last supper, it replicates it. At the last supper the Lord Himself indicated that He would die and showed how we should remember Him - eat bread in remembrance of the broken body, drink in remembrance of the blood shed to atone. There are a number of talks and articles which say we should think about Him and his sacrifice when we take the sacrament. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that it honours the last supper or that we should think about that. I know that when I take the sacrament I think about what He has done for me and often think about those last three days. 2
UtahTexan Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, sheilauk said: The sacrament doesn't honor the last supper, it replicates it. At the last supper the Lord Himself indicated that He would die and showed how we should remember Him - eat bread in remembrance of the broken body, drink in remembrance of the blood shed to atone. There are a number of talks and articles which say we should think about Him and his sacrifice when we take the sacrament. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that it honours the last supper or that we should think about that. I know that when I take the sacrament I think about what He has done for me and often think about those last three days. Replicate? Not really. Unleavened Bread and Wine were used. And, in conjunction with John 6, it means a lot more. It represents it. It is not replicated. And that is a different act than what Christ went thru the next day. Edited March 28, 2016 by CountryBoy
Scott Lloyd Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 51 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: My gosh. Another excuse for ignoring what your older brother did for you. Stop already with the "older brother" stuff. It's trite and hackneyed, it falls woefully short of characterizing Christ, His divinity and our relationship to Him, and it comes across as self-righteous and preachy. 2
UtahTexan Posted March 28, 2016 Posted March 28, 2016 14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Stop already with the "older brother" stuff. It's trite and hackneyed, it falls woefully short of characterizing Christ, His divinity and our relationship to Him, and it comes across as self-righteous and preachy. I apologize. I thought he was our older brother. I stand corrected
Maedros Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 On 3/25/2016 at 1:35 AM, VideoGameJunkie said: Is it because they just want to focus on the Resurrection on Easter? Because Good Friday is a pretty important day. Christian tradition is less important to us or at least to me - leading up to this day shops are booming with business because people are rushing to buy Easter eggs and stuff - it has become a day of collaboration between business and religion and perhaps the church doesn't want to associate with that.
CV75 Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 17 hours ago, CountryBoy said: My gosh. Another excuse for ignoring what your older brother did for you. I, too, do the Sacrament weekly....it honors the Last Supper, for which it was instituted. I, however, love my Older Brother and hate that He suffered horribly for what I did.....I placed those stripes on his back...I held the nails. he suffered for ME. So, I am embarrassed at thoser who keep making excuses and justifications for not honoring the day he did that. The first two words in your post dishonor Him (look it up). We honor "the day He did that" every Sunday we partake of the Sacrament, and at other times as well; every chance we get. As for that day alone, I'm sure John 21;25 applies, so I just might know more about what He did on "the day He did that" than you do! What tradition of man has the Lord commanded us to observe?
thesometimesaint Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 16 hours ago, CountryBoy said: I apologize. I thought he was our older brother. I stand corrected He is, along with billions of others. What makes him special is not his age, but his position.
Tacenda Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 40 minutes ago, CV75 said: The first two words in your post dishonor Him (look it up). We honor "the day He did that" every Sunday we partake of the Sacrament, and at other times as well; every chance we get. As for that day alone, I'm sure John 21;25 applies, so I just might know more about what He did on "the day He did that" than you do! What tradition of man has the Lord commanded us to observe? Well there have been plenty of times I've heard "older brother" in talks, maybe even in conference.
UtahTexan Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 7 hours ago, CV75 said: The first two words in your post dishonor Him (look it up). We honor "the day He did that" every Sunday we partake of the Sacrament, and at other times as well; every chance we get. As for that day alone, I'm sure John 21;25 applies, so I just might know more about what He did on "the day He did that" than you do! What tradition of man has the Lord commanded us to observe? Actually, I doubt you do. Regardless, I will respond to these posts and be done. I get it Mormons feel that they do enough the rest of the year to be able to party on the day Christ died. Guess what? We ALL do what the Lord requires....we ALL take the Lord's Supper.....that does not mean honor should not be given on the Day HE Died ...but...I suppose I am the only Mormon who believes that. It is fine. We agree on more than we disagree
UtahTexan Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 7 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: He is, along with billions of others. What makes him special is not his age, but his position. I disagree...he is the eldest for a reason....No other denomination considers Christ a brother...we do...that makes it different. He is not just our Savior...He is our Oldest Brother. Maybe that only means something to me....but in my family, older brothers are special. They take care of younger siblings.
UtahTexan Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 6 hours ago, Tacenda said: Well there have been plenty of times I've heard "older brother" in talks, maybe even in conference. Maybe we should tell our leaders to stop....after all, on this board, it means nothing.
thesometimesaint Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) 19 hours ago, CountryBoy said: I disagree...he is the eldest for a reason....No other denomination considers Christ a brother...we do...that makes it different. He is not just our Savior...He is our Oldest Brother. Maybe that only means something to me....but in my family, older brothers are special. They take care of younger siblings. In mine too, but I know plenty of older brothers that didn't meet that requirement. Edited March 30, 2016 by thesometimesaint
3DOP Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) I have to take exception to what Country Boy said claiming that only Mormons consider Christ a brother: Quote "...No other denomination considers Christ a brother...we do...that makes it different..." Quote "It pleased Christ to take upon Himself the Son of Man, and to become thereby our Brother, in order that His mercy to us might be shown most openly; for "it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest before God. Likewise because Mary was chosen to be the Mother of Christ, our Lord and our Brother, the unique prerogative was given her above all other mothers to show her mercy to us and to pour it out upon us." ---Pope Leo XIII, Magnae Dei Matris, September 8, 1892, para. 11 Quote The doctrine of Mary's spiritual motherhood of men is contained in the fact that she is the antitype of Eve: Eve is our natural mother because she is the origin of our natural life; so Mary is our spiritual mother because she is the origin of our spiritual life. Again, Mary's spiritual motherhood rests on the fact that Christ is our brother, being "the firstborn among many brethren" (Romans 8:29) ---The Catholic Encyclopedia, entry for The Blessed Virgin Mary Quote Man is predestined to reproduce the image of God's Son made man, the image of the invisible God, so that Christ shall be the first-born of a multitude of brothers and sisters. ---Catechism of the Catholic Church #381 Quote The Son whom she brought forth is he whom God placed as the first-born among many brethren, that is, the faithful, in whose generation and formation she cooperates with a mother's love, ---Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium, November 21, 1964, Para. 63 Presumably my eagerness to dispel the notion that Catholics deny the plain teaching of Holy Scripture in Rom 8:29 will be readily understood. But additionally a casual internet search reveals Christians of many other affiliations accepting the teaching found in the Psalms, Rom 8:29, and Heb. 2:11-13. https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=christ+is+our+elder+brother&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-002 3DOP Edited March 30, 2016 by 3DOP 3
UtahTexan Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 1 hour ago, 3DOP said: I have to take exception to what Country Boy said claiming that only Mormons consider Christ a brother: ---Pope Leo XIII, Magnae Dei Matris, September 8, 1892, para. 11 ---The Catholic Encyclopedia, entry for The Blessed Virgin Mary ---Catechism of the Catholic Church #381 ---Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium, November 21, 1964, Para. 63 Presumably my eagerness to dispel the notion that Catholics deny the plain teaching of Holy Scripture in Rom 8:29 will be readily understood. But additionally a casual internet search reveals Christians of many other affiliations accepting the teaching found in the Psalms, Rom 8:29, and Heb. 2:11-13. https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=christ+is+our+elder+brother&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-002 3DOP I was Catholic....very devout. Christ was never considered our brother the way He is in the LDS Church. But....I would love to spout back what Church Fathers have said....some of it is truly enlightening. Not very Catholic....but truly enlightening.
3DOP Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: I was Catholic....very devout. Christ was never considered our brother the way He is in the LDS Church. But....I would love to spout back what Church Fathers have said....some of it is truly enlightening. Not very Catholic....but truly enlightening. I do not know "the way" Christ is considered your brother in the CoJCoLDS. That was never under consideration. You said, "No other denomination considers Christ a brother". Has it not been proven otherwise? I do not take exception to the way Mormons say Christ is their brother. I take exception to the statement you made as quoted. It seems to me like you need to make a revision of your claim so as to admit that many denominations consider Christ as their brother, and in particular the Roman Catholic faith, but not in the same way as you do. Nothing more. No big deal. Just be a little more careful to avoid a sweeping statement that is clearly untenable. Regards, 3DOP Edited March 31, 2016 by 3DOP 2
UtahTexan Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 44 minutes ago, 3DOP said: I do not know "the way" Christ is considered your brother in the CoJCoLDS. That was never under consideration. You said, "No other denomination considers Christ a brother". Has it not been proven otherwise? I do not take exception to the way Mormons say Christ is their brother. I take exception to the statement you made as quoted. It seems to me like you need to make a revision of your claim so as to admit that many denominations consider Christ as their brother, and in particular the Roman Catholic faith, but not in the same way as you do. Nothing more. No big deal. Just be a little more careful to avoid a sweeping statement that is clearly untenable. Regards, 3DOP I stand by my statement. Now, if you want to say that Catholics now believe in a heavenly Mother and that we were all Spirit Children in the pre-existence, please...speak up. Can't wait
ChristKnight Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, 3DOP said: I have to take exception to what Country Boy said claiming that only Mormons consider Christ a brother: ---Pope Leo XIII, Magnae Dei Matris, September 8, 1892, para. 11 ---The Catholic Encyclopedia, entry for The Blessed Virgin Mary ---Catechism of the Catholic Church #381 ---Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium, November 21, 1964, Para. 63 Presumably my eagerness to dispel the notion that Catholics deny the plain teaching of Holy Scripture in Rom 8:29 will be readily understood. But additionally a casual internet search reveals Christians of many other affiliations accepting the teaching found in the Psalms, Rom 8:29, and Heb. 2:11-13. https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=christ+is+our+elder+brother&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-002 3DOP Thanks for sharing. Yes, as we see directly in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it is official Catholic teaching that Jesus Christ is our brother. This of course differs from the specific way that LDS (at least in one sense) may understand Christ being our brother (i.e. being the literal first born spirit child of the Father (and Heavenly Mother)), however it is clear that traditional Christianity does consider Christ as not only being the Son of God (and God the Son), but also our brother. Thanks again, no need to go down a rabbit hole. Edited March 31, 2016 by ChristKnight 3
UtahTexan Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 On 3/31/2016 at 7:28 PM, ChristKnight said: Thanks for sharing. Yes, as we see directly in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it is official Catholic teaching that Jesus Christ is our brother. This of course differs from the specific way that LDS (at least in one sense) may understand Christ being our brother (i.e. being the literal first born spirit child of the Father (and Heavenly Mother)), however it is clear that traditional Christianity does consider Christ as not only being the Son of God (and God the Son), but also our brother. Thanks again, no need to go down a rabbit hole. And you have both proven my point. We believe in more than Spiritual brothers. We believe we are actual brothers. Catholics do not. So, I stand by statement unless you wish to convert and claim we were ALL spirit children in the pre-existence. You BOTH dodge that...CK always dodges me...he can not handle the actual truth Do not insult posters.
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