Over 7 billion people on earth...and most are not LDS

[SteveO]

At the time of Moses there was around 50 million people on earth...he brought out around (being generous) 500,000 to go into the wilderness and worship the only true and living God...bout 1% of the world's population then.  So what's your point?

[halconero]

56 minutes ago, Keq82 said:

Then that implies that some doctrine is, in fact, false.  The black-and-white thinking the church often implements is what creates false dichotomies.  

It's comforting to know that you consider Mother Teresa as an "ambigious" figure--I think she is a Saint (like most Christians). If she was born LDS and lived the exact same life, I'm sure you would be praising her, simply because she belonged to your faith and shared some of the same beliefs.   

 

I'm not sure if you know what a false dichotomy is...

There's been ample response already to this, but among some of Mother Teresa's more ambiguous actions are the following:

- Withholding medical care so that patients could experience suffering, which she saw as divine

- Said that the poor should accept their lot in life and was critical of efforts to uplift them

- Accepted rewards and maintained relationships with several dictators

Also, if you would spend a reasonable amount of time on this board you'll soon realize that I am far from the type to be singing anyone's praises, Latter-day Saint or not.

[Sleeper Cell]

3 hours ago, Keq82 said:

Yes, I openly disagree with some of the doctrine as proclaimed by the LDS Church.  Am I really supposed to believe that somebody like Mother Teresa is just sitting in spirit prison right now waiting until somebody does a baptism on her behalf?  In spite of all the great things she did (not to mention that she lived a very clean, Christ-like life), she will not be among God’s saved unless she is baptized into our church?  According to LDS doctrine, her baptism does not count and; thus, she would be forced to go to a spirit prison after this life. 

Do you think members should just blindly accept every piece of doctrine just because it’s what the church approves?  Just 40 years ago, many members were blindly accepting racist doctrine banning blacks from the priesthood; the church has since completely changed its doctrine on that particular issue.  Our doctrine constantly changes…in fact; I don’t even know what our doctrine is because it’s always changing with each generation to adjust to the times.

If you “don’t even know what ‘our’ doctrine is,” perhaps you should be a tad less dogmatic when discussing it.

I do not think that anyone should blindly accept every piece of doctrine just because the church approves.  But it is one thing to not “blindly accept” a doctrine; quite another to complain because the church doesn’t blindly accept your doctrine as to how it should use its resources.  

Do you think it is reasonable to expect a church to conduct itself in accordance with your doctrinal beliefs rather than in accordance with its doctrinal beliefs?  

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, halconero said:

I'm not sure if you know what a false dichotomy is...

There's been ample response already to this, but among some of Mother Teresa's more ambiguous actions are the following:

- Withholding medical care so that patients could experience suffering, which she saw as divine

- Said that the poor should accept their lot in life and was critical of efforts to uplift them

- Accepted rewards and maintained relationships with several dictators

Also, if you would spend a reasonable amount of time on this board you'll soon realize that I am far from the type to be singing anyone's praises, Latter-day Saint or not.

Wow, I didn't know all this about Mother Teresa.

I guess no one is infallibe -- not even a popular Catholic saint.

[Keq82]

50 minutes ago, Calm said:

How much have you studied the life of Mother Teresa?

You are a new poster and therefore may not be familiar with halc.  He is not the kind of LDS you accuse him of being.  He is extremely thoughtful, very well educated and if he advises caution in something, it would be wise to do research before assuming he is wrong or at the very least ask why he has that opinion.  I may not agree with him on everything (though I admit I don on most things), but I have never found his opinion to be poorly thought out or unreaonable.

I have studied her a bit...but I am no expert.  I do, however, know this:

- The Catholic Church (The Vatican) has her canonisation date set for Sept 4, 2016.  

- Our current prophet has quoted her in conference talks. 

"Mother Teresa, a Catholic nun who worked among the poor in India most of her life, spoke this profound truth: “If you judge people, you have no time to love them.”⁵ The Savior has admonished, “This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.”⁶ I ask: can we love one another, as the Savior has commanded, if we judge each other? And I answer—with Mother Teresa: no, we cannot."

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/charity-never-faileth?lang=eng

She most have been a great person/example for others, according to our own prophet.  

 

 

 

[Keq82]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Wow, I didn't know all this about Mother Teresa.

I guess no one is infallibe -- not even a popular Catholic saint.

I find it comical that some people try to find fault with people like Mother Teresa.  

[Keq82]

10 minutes ago, halconero said:

I'm not sure if you know what a false dichotomy is...

There's been ample response already to this, but among some of Mother Teresa's more ambiguous actions are the following:

- Withholding medical care so that patients could experience suffering, which she saw as divine

- Said that the poor should accept their lot in life and was critical of efforts to uplift them

- Accepted rewards and maintained relationships with several dictators

Also, if you would spend a reasonable amount of time on this board you'll soon realize that I am far from the type to be singing anyone's praises, Latter-day Saint or not.

Well, the current prophet thinks she is a great example:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/charity-never-faileth?lang=eng

[halconero]

2 minutes ago, Keq82 said:

I find it comical that some people try to find fault with people like Mother Teresa.  

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa....you're fine with finding fault with a whole of other things, but heaven forbid someone bring up some concerns they have with withholding patient care, advocating the poor retain their lot in life, and associating with dictators?

[halconero]

1 minute ago, Keq82 said:

Well, the current prophet thinks she is a great example:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/charity-never-faileth?lang=eng

I don't see any ringing praises there, just a quote from him quoting her. I agree with the quote. I don't agree with all her actions.

[Keq82]

51 minutes ago, Sleeper Cell said:

And building chapels and temples and doing other things to help the bishops, ward clerks, stake presidents (and the list goes on) in their efforts to help members become better people. You know, the sort of stuff that some argue that the church ought to curtail so it can devote more money to “humanitarian aid.”  

Does the church release its financial records here in the US?  Nope.  

“According to an official church Welfare Services fact sheet, the church gave $1.3 billion in humanitarian aid in over 178 countries and territories during the 25 years between 1985 and 2010. A fact sheet from the previous year indicates that less than one-third of the sum was monetary assistance, while the rest was in the form of "material assistance." All in all, if one were to evenly distribute that $1.3 billion over a quarter century, it would mean that the church gave $52 million annually. A recently published article co-written by Cragun estimates that the Mormon Church donates only about 0.7 percent of its annual income to charity; the United Methodist Church gives about 29 percent.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-07-18/how-the-mormons-make-money#p1

Another church-funded project:

City Creek Reserve is spending more than $1 million a day on construction, and the project ultimately will cost around $3 billion, said Chris Redgrave, a KSL executive who also chairs the Salt Lake Chamber's Can-Do Coalition, which is looking for ways to jump-start the downtown economy.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705341784/Salt-Lake-City-high-rise-is-ready-for-occupancy-on-Main.html

 

If the church supposedly takes in an estimated six billion dollars a year—and only spends .7 percent on humanitarian aid/charity—I would say that number is low.  Many major corporations give more money than that…

[Keq82]

5 minutes ago, halconero said:

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa....you're fine with finding fault with a whole of other things, but heaven forbid someone bring up some concerns they have with withholding patient care, advocating the poor retain their lot in life, and associating with dictators?

Was she perfect?  Of course not.  But she is a great example for us all.  

[Keq82]

4 minutes ago, halconero said:

I don't see any ringing praises there, just a quote from him quoting her. I agree with the quote. I don't agree with all her actions.

Ok.  

[Calm]

There are those who challenge these claims, saying that those making them never talked to those actually being helped, the reports are from disgruntled etc., that Mother Teresa did the political stuff to open doors etc.

I need to study it more to see whether I believe there is enough evidence there, there were some pretty specific claims of no actual patients in many houses in some spots of the world and documentation of numbers for the charities listed for India (I believe required by the government, so a good source) claimed to be helped being substantially lower than what would be expected with the amount of donations...I think this was from the first wiki article I linked to, been reading several accounts as it has been awhile since I did any research on her---since her writings were released---and I wanted to refresh my memory and see if anything new had come up.

But there is definitely enough out there to be concerned even if one is comfortable with ambiguity and fallible individuals.

[Keq82]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

There are those who challenge these claims, saying that those making them never talked to those actually being helped, the reports are from disgruntled etc., that Mother Teresa did the political stuff to open doors etc.

I need to study it more to see whether I believe there is enough evidence there, there were some pretty specific claims of no actual patients in many houses in some spots of the world and documentation of numbers for the charities listed for India (I believe required by the government, so a good source) claimed to be helped being substantially lower than what would be expected with the amount of donations...I think this was from the first wiki article I linked to, been reading several accounts as it has been awhile since I did any research on her---since her writings were released---and I wanted to refresh my memory and see if anything new had come up.

But there is definitely enough out there to be concerned even if one is comfortable with ambiguity and fallible individuals.

I would argue that there are more fallible characteristics associated with Brigham Young's and Joseph Smith's behavior.  But those two are off limits, right?  

[halconero]

7 minutes ago, Keq82 said:

Was she perfect?  Of course not.  But she is a great example for us all.  

Considering that I work as the Administrator of a Medical Clinic I'll be sure to start withholding medical treatment from any incoming patients on the basis that suffering will help them.

You know, so I can follow her great example.

[UtahTexan]

31 minutes ago, Keq82 said:

I have studied her a bit...but I am no expert.  I do, however, know this:

- The Catholic Church (The Vatican) has her canonisation date set for Sept 4, 2016.  

- Our current prophet has quoted her in conference talks. 

"Mother Teresa, a Catholic nun who worked among the poor in India most of her life, spoke this profound truth: “If you judge people, you have no time to love them.”⁵ The Savior has admonished, “This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.”⁶ I ask: can we love one another, as the Savior has commanded, if we judge each other? And I answer—with Mother Teresa: no, we cannot."

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/charity-never-faileth?lang=eng

She most have been a great person/example for others, according to our own prophet.  

 

 

 

Being a great example does not make her a "Saint".  She was a good person with many faults.  

Again....if I worked for the Mafia, does it matter how many good works I do?

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, Keq82 said:

I would argue that there are more fallible characteristics associated with Brigham Young's and Joseph Smith's behavior.  But those two are off limits, right?  

No.  

One of the criticisms often made of faithful LDS is that they treat questioners and/or nonbelievers all in the same way.

Perhaps it would be wise of you to get to know people on the message board and their very varied opinions before making such blanket conclusions about them.  For your own credibility as it brings into doubt just how much effort you made in studying the Church and other things before coming to conclusions or if perhaps you concluded what was what before even looking as you appear to be doing here with some issues and a lot of posters.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Keq82 said:

I find it comical that some people try to find fault with people like Mother Teresa.  

No more comical than trying to find fault with latter-day prophets and apostles.

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Nah...I wish you weren't so naïve (-;

Them's fighting words where I come from. I challenge you to a naïveté contest at dawn.

Edited March 24, 2016 by The Nehor

[Keq82]

2 hours ago, CountryBoy said:

Being a great example does not make her a "Saint".  She was a good person with many faults.  

Again....if I worked for the Mafia, does it matter how many good works I do?

Tell that to the leaders of the Catholic Church or any Catholic friends that she isn't a Saint.

I forgot that Mother Teresa and Lucky Luciano had so much in common...