Religious Freedom - Explain it to me like I'm 5

[gclayjr]

THeSometimesSaint,

 

Quote

You still didn't answer my question. We are a secular nation. While should my tax dollars go to support overtly religious ceremonies?

I DID answer your question. I pointed out that your TAX dollars are not involved, or if your tax dollars are involved it is the costs of REMOVAL of religios expression in the public domain. As I noted in regards to the Creches and expressions of "Merry Christmas" it is the removal of religios expression from the public domain, not saving TAX dollars!

 

Now yo may REALLY believe that in our secular state that such religious expression has no business to be in the public domain, but then you just prove my explanation to that mythical 5 year old that religious freedom IS being taken away!

 

Regards,

 

George Clay

[thesometimesaint]

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion... .

Articles of Faith #11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Which religion are you going to force on the American people?

[mtomm]

1 hour ago, gclayjr said:

mtomm, others,

I don't agree with you, but this stuff is so pervasive, and has been sneaking up on us in so many ways, I still am amazed that anybody can deny it. So for my next examples of religion being being removed from public and only allowed in the private sphere. How about removals of religious symbols from public display to include Christmas creches s from public parks. to telling employees not to say Merry Christmas, to removing 10 commandments from courthouses to a long dispute regarding a veterans memorial on a mountain in Soledad California, because it looked like a big cross and offended Atheists.

Or are you going to continue to make my argument in your objections by blowing this off also as no big deal. When will you see that piece by piece, step by step, it has already happened?.. and yes it iS a big deal.

1 hour ago, gclayjr said:

theSometimesSaint,

Typical smoke screen!

 SO again your arguement is nothing more than a deceptive smoke screen. THis is another effort to remove religious expression from the public sphere, not an effort to save tax payer money!

 

I think the concern is denying Christian freedom, not religious freedom. If we are going to be honest with ourselves. 

And if you want to protect your right to religious expression perhaps a donation the ACLU is in order.  (I'll admit to being shocked at the extensive list in the link.)

Edited March 1, 2016 by mtomm

[gclayjr]

TheSometimesSaint,

 

How is saying "Merry Christmas" forcing a religion on someone?  Heck I appreciate it when someone wishes me Happy Hanukkah. I don't even get offended when so called rationalists try to explain how the Universe was created without any intelligence.

The fact that so many of you feel so oppressed and crushed when you see a manger with a baby Jesus in it, doesn't make it oppressive. It just makes those who want to remove religious expression from the public square either lying tyrants, or little Victorian  girls who are too easily upset!

 

Regards,

 

George Clay

[Mars]

george clay,

many people, myself included, when they see a display of religious symbolism for one religion only in a public space, see a tacit endorsement of that religion.

if the ten commandments were replaced with, say, a list of references to hadiths and verses in the Qu'ran that identified key elements of sharia law, i would feel the same way.  and i'd be willing to bet that a lot of people who are cool with the 10 commandments wouldn't be cool with the same kind of thing but with Islam.  or imagine a friday call to prayer by a Muslim principal at a mostly Muslim high school in Dearborn, Michigan.  most americans wouldn't be cool with it.  and they'd be correct!  but if it's not cool for Islam, it shouldn't be cool for Christians.

if the ten commandments were in one spot, a display of Muslim principles of right and wrong in governance in another, and yet another spot was reserved for perhaps a reference to Matthew 7:12, and finally other references to good governance from a diverse array of atheist, eastern religion, and the like, then the tenor of the display would change.  i wouldn't see it as an endorsement of one religious principle over another, but rather an acknowledgment of the amazing diversity of our citizenry.  in a similar vein, if multiple prayers were offered by students of a variety of faith, in a spirit of harmony and mutual understanding by attempting to see how faith - or lack of it - interacts with the lives of their fellow students, it'd be well received.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Mars

[mtomm]

7 minutes ago, gclayjr said:

TheSometimesSaint,

 

How is saying "Merry Christmas" forcing a religion on someone?  Heck I appreciate it when someone wishes me Happy Hanukkah. I don't even get offended when so called rationalists try to explain how the Universe was created without any intelligence.

The fact that so many of you feel so oppressed and crushed when you see a manger with a baby Jesus in it, doesn't make it oppressive. It just makes those who want to remove religious expression from the public square either lying tyrants, or little Victorian  girls who are too easily upset!

 

Regards,

 

George Clay

This is purely a matter of economics and nothing to do with religious freedom. If a business owner feels that saying Merry Christmas is marginalizing some of his customers he may choose to have them forgo the sentiment. That doesn't keep a store clerk from wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas the other 16 hours of the day. 

[thesometimesaint]

14 minutes ago, gclayjr said:

TheSometimesSaint,

 

How is saying "Merry Christmas" forcing a religion on someone?  Heck I appreciate it when someone wishes me Happy Hanukkah. I don't even get offended when so called rationalists try to explain how the Universe was created without any intelligence.

The fact that so many of you feel so oppressed and crushed when you see a manger with a baby Jesus in it, doesn't make it oppressive. It just makes those who want to remove religious expression from the public square either lying tyrants, or little Victorian  girls who are too easily upset!

 

Regards,

 

George Clay

Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion. The law can't force to you, with few exceptions, to not say anything. You want to say Happy Flying Spaghetti Monster Day. Be my guest. But I shouldn't be forced to pay my tax dollars to you to do it.

Apparently a certain city in Ohio doesn't like religious freedom for some.

SEE http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/zombie-nativity-scene_us_56666ad3e4b079b2818fe5fd

 

[Anijen]

I can try to step outside the argument and try to see both sides.

Against: religion, specifically church attendance has been declining for the last forty years, in some areas precipitously so. Some take this decline in church attendance as a motivator to change the establishment clause and the free exercise clause of the First Amendment.  Religiously motivated behavior that is affecting law making is always in the news and has been since the start of this great country. Some examples are; children dying in faith healing homes, the lack of regulation in private religious day care centers or summer camps, prisoners demanding who knows what drug or depravity claiming it is their First Amendment right.  The argument can be compelling. The argument against The Religious Freedom Act (RFRA) is argued that it is lawmaking that makes discrimination against homosexuals and neglecting children to be legal options.  What could be wrong with religious freedom members of Congress asks? The short answer is a lot when it is extreme.

For: religion Our own scriptures support the freedom of religion;

D&C 101:77: According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles.

"...[W]hen there is a battle underway, persons who desire to join the fray should “march to the sound of the guns. So it is that I invite you to march with me as I speak about religious freedom under the United States Constitution. There is a battle over the meaning of that freedom. The contest is of eternal importance, and it is your generation that must understand the issues and make the efforts to prevail." ~Elder Dallin H. Oaks

When other countries have freedom of religion as part of their governmental system then it helps our own missionary efforts. When we start to whittle away this countries own religious rights for the extreme sects we are just making it easier for when the time comes that main stream religions will be next in line (my belief that time has already passed). And even in our own country missionary work will be hampered. An example of this is also seen in the freedom of speech, I do not condone flag burning, but I recognize it as a form of political speech which needs to be free because, if not, it will take away a powerful voice of the people and the market place of ideas will no longer exist. 

 

Well I am for religious freedom. I have to go to class so I must end my venting...

Edited March 1, 2016 by Anijen

[gclayjr]

mtomm, theSometimesSain,

Actually it IS only Christianity that is being barred from the public arena. If you do a quick search, you will find that many High Schools are providing prayer rooms (at tax payer dollars) so that devout Muslims can pray during while at HS. I do not have a problem with that, however, I do have a problem when certain California High Schools make the children dress up in Muslim Garb and recite the Shahada as part of history and cultural instruction. I don't know how much you know about Islam, but reciting the Shahada in front of witnesses is how you become a Muslim. I would also have a problem with schools baptizing students as part of History. 

The idea that barring religious  thought and expression from the public forum (which is always directed at Christians for the same reason that it is assumed only White people can be racist... the false assertion that only the majority can be racist and only the majority Christian view is religious endorsement).

There are many schools and textbooks that present the history of the Crusades from a Muslim propaganda point of view, because obviously the tradition European view is propaganda. So what do you do, not teach History, or just always assume that anything that has Christian or European roots is propaganda?

Secularists, don't seem to understand (or maybe they do)  that by default secularism is atheism. Because when you teach organic evolution, you ARE teaching that there is no God. When the courts in Pennsylvania forbid a school district from even suggesting to their students who might be interested that there are books out there that show scientific evidence that there is some intelligent design in the universe, they are demanding that the Atheist view must be taught, and endorsed in order to pass Biology exams.

And if you don't think that Organic Evolution is a FAITH. I challenge you to give me a good scientific theory, that doesn't require a leap of faith as to how life evolved form inorganic chemicals. (I will give you a hint. Nobody can figure out how to do it in the Laboratory, there is no fossil or historical record, there are only speculative theories, based upon nothing!).

I submit is only by faith that anybody believes that life came form inorganic chemicals without any intelligent creator!

 

Regards,

 

George Clay

 

[mtomm]

22 minutes ago, gclayjr said:

mtomm, theSometimesSain,

Actually it IS only Christianity that is being barred from the public arena. If you do a quick search, you will find that many High Schools are providing prayer rooms (at tax payer dollars) so that devout Muslims can pray during while at HS. I do not have a problem with that, however, I do have a problem when certain California High Schools make the children dress up in Muslim Garb and recite the Shahada as part of history and cultural instruction. I don't know how much you know about Islam, but reciting the Shahada in front of witnesses is how you become a Muslim. I would also have a problem with schools baptizing students as part of History. 

The idea that barring religious  thought and expression from the public forum (which is always directed at Christians for the same reason that it is assumed only White people can be racist... the false assertion that only the majority can be racist and only the majority Christian view is religious endorsement).

There are many schools and textbooks that present the history of the Crusades from a Muslim propaganda point of view, because obviously the tradition European view is propaganda. So what do you do, not teach History, or just always assume that anything that has Christian or European roots is propaganda?

Secularists, don't seem to understand (or maybe they do)  that by default secularism is atheism. Because when you teach organic evolution, you ARE teaching that there is no God. When the courts in Pennsylvania forbid a school district from even suggesting to their students who might be interested that there are books out there that show scientific evidence that there is some intelligent design in the universe, they are demanding that the Atheist view must be taught, and endorsed in order to pass Biology exams.

And if you don't think that Organic Evolution is a FAITH. I challenge you to give me a good scientific theory, that doesn't require a leap of faith as to how life evolved form inorganic chemicals. (I will give you a hint. Nobody can figure out how to do it in the Laboratory, there is no fossil or historical record, there are only speculative theories, based upon nothing!).

I submit is only by faith that anybody believes that life came form inorganic chemicals without any intelligent creator!

You complain about having religion in school and then complain that there isn't enough religion in school? I'm getting whiplash. But I can see now. You want all religions taught equally in schools!

From the very first article when I googled "school prayer rooms" is this:

Quote

She came up with the idea of excusing Muslim students for eight minutes each day to pray together on campus, according to The Washington Post.
 

Holy cow! Only 8 minutes. I got an entire class hour excused for my religious instruction.  I was even allowed to leave campus to attend it. One excused absence everyday to pray!

Which creation story are you good with? Here is a list of twenty-one to get us started. 

[thesometimesaint]

mtomm:

I don't have a problem with studying about the main faith religious faith traditions of world in High School. But when a teacher or other school official gets in front of the class and says something to the effect that I believe this so you will believe this too. Then I have a problem.

I'm a convert so seminary wasn't an option for me, but my kids went to early morning seminary, before the regular school day ever started.

[Walden]

19 hours ago, gclayjr said:

Walden,

It may be that the specific examples that I selected referred to coaches being fired for praying with fellow believers who desired to invoke God's blessing on their sports activity. It was never to be with the general sports team or any student that didn't desire to be with him when praying. It used to be that most town meetings started with prayer, but this has been mostly eliminated do to law suits from "Freedom From Religion" groups.

 

You are actually making my point while siding with the Babylonians. According to you,  It is not suppressing religion to tell people that they must shut up in the public space, and can only express their beliefs within the locked doors of Church. So since this is your point of view removing religion from the public spaces does not constitute restricting religion.

However, just because you assert it doesn't make it true!

 

Regards,

George Clay

The laws/rulings are pretty clear, specifically when it comes to school administrators and coaches. Students are allowed to do things such as meet for prayer in front of the school before the first bell, students are allowed to proselytize their faith to one another, students are allowed to bring a Bible to school and participate in student-organized Bible study, etc. 

When a school administrator in a leadership role (whether that be a teacher, principal, coach, etc.) starts leading or organizing these activities, then a line has been crossed between church and state.

I am not so sure why that is difficult for people to understand.

If a teacher were leading a class in Muslim prayer, Buddhist chants, etc., the outcry here would be deafening.

[gclayjr]

Walden,

Quote

The laws/rulings are pretty clear

It is by the law that religion, particularly Christianity, is being driven from the public sphere. I am not disputing that the Law does not allow, a Coach or a teacher to Pray, even with a small group of people who wish to pray with him. I am not disputing that the law requires that in many places you cannot show a creche (nativity scene), I am not disputing that the law forbids even referencing the possibility that there may be some other explanation for the creation of the universe or the origin of man except for organic evolution.

 

I am not even disputing that the law requires Christian bakers to bake celebratory wedding cakes for homosexual weddings, 

 

In fact that is my point. It is via the law and a deliberate twisting of the idea of the 1st amendment 

Quote

 Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

TO somehow mean that nobody can even show their religious beliefs... I'm not sure how that can be construed as CONGRESS MAKING LAWS.. But the opponents of Christianity have nimbly convinced the courts to so adjudicate.

 

Again. The premise of this topic is how to explain to a 5 year old how we are losing our religious freedom. Your defenses of all of these oppressive government regulations that have been imposed rule, by rule, and step by step, will demonstrate to that mythical 5 year old this fact better than my own explanations.

I also, think that I am on firm ground to warn that mythical 5 year old to watch out for more such oppressive laws and regulations to come. It surly follows prophetic prophecies.

 

 

Regards,

 

George Clay

[cinepro]

2 hours ago, gclayjr said:

 I do have a problem when certain California High Schools make the children dress up in Muslim Garb and recite the Shahada as part of history and cultural instruction.

 

CFR on this.

[cinepro]

5 hours ago, gclayjr said:

Typical smoke screen!

 Do you not understand the concept of "Sunk Costs". For example, for the Marble 10 commandments being removed from courthouses.

Why would anyone, including Mormons and Christians (and Jews) want the 10 Commandments anywhere near a courthouse?  Other than murder, stealing and certain forms of lying, what do they have to do with our legal system in any way?

[thesometimesaint]

41 minutes ago, gclayjr said:

Walden,

It is by the law that religion, particularly Christianity, is being driven from the public sphere. I am not disputing that the Law does not allow, a Coach or a teacher to Pray, even with a small group of people who wish to pray with him. I am not disputing that the law requires that in many places you cannot show a creche (nativity scene), I am not disputing that the law forbids even referencing the possibility that there may be some other explanation for the creation of the universe or the origin of man except for organic evolution.

 

I am not even disputing that the law requires Christian bakers to bake celebratory wedding cakes for homosexual weddings, 

 

In fact that is my point. It is via the law and a deliberate twisting of the idea of the 1st amendment 

TO somehow mean that nobody can even show their religious beliefs... I'm not sure how that can be construed as CONGRESS MAKING LAWS.. But the opponents of Christianity have nimbly convinced the courts to so adjudicate.

 

Again. The premise of this topic is how to explain to a 5 year old how we are losing our religious freedom. Your defenses of all of these oppressive government regulations that have been imposed rule, by rule, and step by step, will demonstrate to that mythical 5 year old this fact better than my own explanations.

I also, think that I am on firm ground to warn that mythical 5 year old to watch out for more such oppressive laws and regulations to come. It surly follows prophetic prophecies.

Regards,

George Clay

Eighty-three percent of Americans identify themselves as Christians. Most of the rest, 13 percent, have no religion. That leaves just 4 percent as adherents of all non-Christian religions combined — Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and a smattering of individual mentions.

You conveniently left out the other part of the First Amendment which is "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

The only "war" on Christians in this country is between you ears.

[Walden]

21 minutes ago, gclayjr said:

TO somehow mean that nobody can even show their religious beliefs... I'm not sure how that can be construed as CONGRESS MAKING LAWS.. But the opponents of Christianity have nimbly convinced the courts to so adjudicate.

 

Again. The premise of this topic is how to explain to a 5 year old how we are losing our religious freedom. Your defenses of all of these oppressive government regulations that have been imposed rule, by rule, and step by step, will demonstrate to that mythical 5 year old this fact better than my own explanations.

I also, think that I am on firm ground to warn that mythical 5 year old to watch out for more such oppressive laws and regulations to come. It surly follows prophetic prophecies.

 

 

Regards,

 

George Clay

Sure, you can show your religious beliefs. Follow the ten commandments. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Be charitable. Be honorable. Set an example to all of your friends and family by living a virtuous life in alignment with your religious values. Say a small prayer. Do a good deed.

What you are arguing for is none of these things. What you are arguing for is the right to use a position of authority, be it a teacher, principal or boss, to espouse your own personal belief system, and essentially use a form of silent, and not so silent, coercion to proselytize your personal belief system in an environment in which impressionable students or employees may feel threatened or at risk by speaking out against the personal beliefs of someone in a position in authority over them.

I would explain to a 5 year old that the religious freedom argument is a red herring, a last-ditch effort by a predominantly white, largely Protestant culture to maintain control/power over a society which is increasingly less-white and increasingly non-religious. And we would laugh together at the thought that the courts are being oppressive in making laws and rulings that forbid one particular religious brand from being promoted by the US government.

I would also explain to this 5 year old that recent rulings in courts that protect the rights of believers and non-believers by removing the endorsements of white, Protestant Christianity from institutions that are funded by tax-payers from a large variety of belief systems, (many of which differ from the WASP version promoted by government institutions in the United States over the last 250 years), is a prudent course of judicial action to ensure that all Americans are given equal rights, access and opportunities, not just white, Protestant Americans, in an American culture that is becoming more and more culturally diverse. 

And if it was a 5 year old, I could likely relate the myth of the loss of religious freedom in America to a story that many 5 year olds know well, "Chicken Little"....the "sky is falling" routine that is espoused by both Chicken Little and the Religious Right would likely resonate very well with a 5 year old. 

  

[mfbukowski]

20 minutes ago, Walden said:

 What you are arguing for is the right to use a position of authority, be it a teacher, principal or boss, to espouse your own personal belief system, and essentially use a form of silent, and not so silent, coercion to proselytize your personal belief system in an environment in which impressionable students or employees may feel threatened or at risk by speaking out against the personal beliefs of someone in a position in authority over them.

I would explain to a 5 year old that the religious freedom argument is a red herring, a last-ditch effort by a predominantly white, largely Protestant culture to maintain control/power over a society which is increasingly less-white and increasingly non-religious. And we would laugh together at the thought that the courts are being oppressive in making laws and rulings that forbid one particular religious brand from being promoted by the US government.

I would also explain to this 5 year old that recent rulings in courts that protect the rights of believers and non-believers by removing the endorsements of white, Protestant Christianity from institutions that are funded by tax-payers from a large variety of belief systems, (many of which differ from the WASP version promoted by government institutions in the United States over the last 250 years), is a prudent course of judicial action to ensure that all Americans are given equal rights, access and opportunities, not just white, Protestant Americans, in an American culture that is becoming more and more culturally diverse. 

And if it was a 5 year old, I could likely relate the myth of the loss of religious freedom in America to a story that many 5 year olds know well, "Chicken Little"....the "sky is falling" routine that is espoused by both Chicken Little and the Religious Right would likely resonate very well with a 5 year old. 

  

Nope, no prejudice or harshness here.  Just love unfeigned. And those racial comments?  No racism there!

Gosh it must be wonderful to be a compassionate Liberal.  They certainly have nothing to learn from us stupid religious people.  After all we are ignorant 5 year olds.

I sure wish I get this smart by the time I grow up!

Edited March 1, 2016 by mfbukowski

[thesometimesaint]

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Nope, no prejudice or harshness here.  Just love unfeigned. 

Gosh it must be wonderful to be a compassionate Liberal.  They certainly have nothing to learn from us stupid religious people.  After all we are ignorant 5 year olds.

We've already seen what compassionate conservatives have done.

 

[mfbukowski]

51 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Why would anyone, including Mormons and Christians (and Jews) want the 10 Commandments anywhere near a courthouse?  Other than murder, stealing and certain forms of lying, what do they have to do with our legal system in any way?

Absolutely nothing.  And of course none of those exceptions came from the 10 Commandments

Obviously our legal system encourages people to lie and steal, to have sex indiscriminately, kill people, and plot ways to get what our neighbor has through nefarious means.

But other than that, you have a point.  

[The Nehor]

55 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Why would anyone, including Mormons and Christians (and Jews) want the 10 Commandments anywhere near a courthouse?  Other than murder, stealing and certain forms of lying, what do they have to do with our legal system in any way?

It might intimidate the graven-image maker charlatans to pack up and peddle their idolatry elsewhere.

[gclayjr]

TheSometimesSaint

 

Quote

You conveniently left out the other part of the First Amendment which is "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

The reason that I left this out was because I don't see how it supports your idea. Maybe I should have included it, because it profoundly supports my position. So I am curious.

 

How do all of those laws that PROHIBITS Christians from praying in public, displaying a creche, or a cross,and Not allowing anybody to mention theories of creation that include some sort of intelligent designer... PROHIBITS anybody else from freely expressing their beliefs?

 

Regards,

 

George Clay

[PeterPear]

On February 29, 2016 at 4:52 AM, sjdawg said:

I hear a lot of talk about eroding religious freedom.   Can someone explain to me exactly how religious freedom is being reduced?   I don't see it.   What freedoms are being lost?  Is someone preventing you from worshiping how you choose?   Is someone making Christianity illegal?  Is someone forcing you to live Sharia law?

Please explain because I don't understand.

Here you go 5-yr old:

https://www.libertyinstitute.org/pages/issues/in-the-school/gabriella-perez

"When 5-year-old Gabriella Perez innocently bowed her head over her lunch at school, she was stopped by a school employee, and told “it was wrong to pray.”

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, gclayjr said:

Actually it IS only Christianity that is being barred from the public arena. If you do a quick search, you will find that many High Schools are providing prayer rooms (at tax payer dollars) so that devout Muslims can pray during while at HS. I do not have a problem with that, however, I do have a problem when certain California High Schools make the children dress up in Muslim Garb and recite the Shahada as part of history and cultural instruction. I don't know how much you know about Islam, but reciting the Shahada in front of witnesses is how you become a Muslim. I would also have a problem with schools baptizing students as part of History. 

It was a lesson on calligraphy. They were shown Islamic calligraphy and told to try to duplicate it to show how difficult artistic calligraphy is. The curriculum included something similar with Chinese writing when the class got to China. They did not recite it or get a translation of it. It was about the artistic value of calligraphy.

Then the Fox News crowd showed up. I consider it incredibly ironic that the people who most insist that the government is becoming a nanny state do the most to suggest that they are so incredibly stupid that they need someone to look after them and make decisions for them.

[PeterPear]

CLEAR EVIDENCE OF DISCRIMINATION 
According to the Perez family, their 5-year-old daughter bowed her head over her food during lunch. A school employee instructed her to stop, and when the young girl told the school official, “But it’s good to pray,” she was told, “It is not good.”
 

http://blog.libertyinstitute.org/2014/05/outrageous-florida-school-attacks-5.html

"Don't Pray little girl! I'm a school employee and know better than you!" 

Total Rot!

Edited March 1, 2016 by PeterPear