Mass Apostasy Under Way? Lawyer Claims to Have Processed 6,500 Resignations

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, CountryBoy said:

Litigation for what?  There would be no money award....so, the members would have to pay hourly, or, at best, a flat fee.  And the cases would likely get thrown out.

Over the past several decades, this issue has indeed become a legal issue.  Not so much by our policies, but some churches engaged in "shaming" when someone was excommunicated.  Even in the ward where I attended in he mid 1980's, the adult priesthood members would be called into a closed meeting and informed that a certain individual had been excommunicated.  No reason was given.

But other churches were much more public in this matter.  From my memory, a specific case was taken to the courts, and the bottom line is that if someone wants to leave the church, it must be done expeditiously and privately, or there can be serious consequences for the church.  Basically, their request must be acted on almost immediately, no unnecessary delays.

Edited February 27, 2016 by cdowis

[UtahTexan]

4 minutes ago, cdowis said:

Over the past several decades, this issue has indeed become a legal issue.  Not so much by our policies, but some churches engaged in "shaming" when someone was excommunicated.  Even in the ward where I attended in he mid 1980's, the adult priesthood members would be called into a closed meeting and informed that a certain individual had been excommunicated.  No reason was given.

But other churches were much more public in this matter.  From my memory, a specific case was taken to the courts, and the bottom line is that if someone wants to leave the church, it must be done expeditiously and privately, or there can be serious consequences for the church.  Basically, their request must be acted on almost immediately, no unnecessary delays.

Please explain.

There is no money in it for the attorney.  So....

[Cold Steel]

On 2/25/2016 at 4:00 PM, smac97 said:

Cold Steel's remarks ("consigned to a fiery HELL...forever") also reflects a qross misunderstanding and/or distortion-to-the-point-of-falsehood of LDS doctrine.

Please re-read what I wrote, guys! I was sayng "that [the concept of the keys of the kingdom] gave the apostate church enormous influence over others who believed that those apostolic keys were passed on to the bishops. With a simple declaration, you or your family could, in their minds, be consignd to a fiery HELL...forever. One reason indulgences and excommunication worked so well in the Roman church is because they taught the people that their keys were able to bind in heaven and Earth. Get someone out of Purgatory here for a few bucks and you can spring them there. Also, we don't believe in a never-ending HELL. We do, however, have the KEYS OF THE KINGDOM. 

 

[Analytics]

18 hours ago, CountryBoy said:

Really?  All I did was ask my name to be removed from Church records>  It did not take an attorney.  It did not take a fight.  It did not need publicity.  

As an attorney, I DO blame the attorney.

Here's the thing.  If you send a letter to the Church asking for your name to be removed, they will refer the matter to the bishop.  Depending upon the bishop, he might expeditiously fill out the paperwork and get the process going.  Or he might ignore it.  Or he might call your mother.  It depends upon the whims of the bishop.

If an attorney sends the letter to the Church on your behalf, the Church processes your resignation.  That's more efficient for everybody concerned.

I'm glad you had a good experience with your resignation, but can you appreciate why somebody might not want to go through the process of justifying his decision to his bishop, begging the bishop to fill out the paperwork, and risk getting a call from his mother?  It's an easier, smoother process with the help of an attorney, your personal experience notwithstanding.  

 

[CA Steve]

52 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Here's the thing.  If you send a letter to the Church asking for your name to be removed, they will refer the matter to the bishop.  Depending upon the bishop, he might expeditiously fill out the paperwork and get the process going.  Or he might ignore it.  Or he might call your mother.  It depends upon the whims of the bishop.

If an attorney sends the letter to the Church on your behalf, the Church processes your resignation.  That's more efficient for everybody concerned.

I'm glad you had a good experience with your resignation, but can you appreciate why somebody might not want to go through the process of justifying his decision to his bishop, begging the bishop to fill out the paperwork, and risk getting a call from his mother?  It's an easier, smoother process with the help of an attorney, your personal experience notwithstanding.  

 

I wonder if the fact Country Boy is an attorney expedited his own process. Perhaps his local leadership paid a lot more attention to his request than they would have otherwise. When he says he didn't have to get an attorney involved, well I suggest that since he is an attorney, one was.

[bcuzbcuz]

52 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Here's the thing.  If you send a letter to the Church asking for your name to be removed, they will refer the matter to the bishop.  Depending upon the bishop, he might expeditiously fill out the paperwork and get the process going.  Or he might ignore it.  Or he might call your mother.  It depends upon the whims of the bishop.

If an attorney sends the letter to the Church on your behalf, the Church processes your resignation.  That's more efficient for everybody concerned.

I'm glad you had a good experience with your resignation, but can you appreciate why somebody might not want to go through the process of justifying his decision to his bishop, begging the bishop to fill out the paperwork, and risk getting a call from his mother?  It's an easier, smoother process with the help of an attorney, your personal experience notwithstanding.  

 

My requests to the bishop were ignored......but my Mom called. 

[Johnnie Cake]

As soon as the church is notified, be it through a bishop or letter to the COB...the member resigning is OUT and no longer a member...everything after that is just administrative processing

[ALarson]

21 hours ago, CountryBoy said:

Well...seems like cheap publicity to me.  I sent in a letter asking to be removed.  I was excommunicated.  I did not attend.  My only time was spent writing the letter.  

Why did your leaders excommunicate you when you had sent in a letter of resignation?

And, are you now a member or not? (From your later post in this thread):

Quote

"Though now LDS, The Catholic Church still considers me Catholic."

(You don't have to answer, if this is asking personal information you don't want to discuss on here.  I'll understand if you opt not to.)

.

Edited February 27, 2016 by ALarson

[UtahTexan]

2 hours ago, Analytics said:

Here's the thing.  If you send a letter to the Church asking for your name to be removed, they will refer the matter to the bishop.  Depending upon the bishop, he might expeditiously fill out the paperwork and get the process going.  Or he might ignore it.  Or he might call your mother.  It depends upon the whims of the bishop.

If an attorney sends the letter to the Church on your behalf, the Church processes your resignation.  That's more efficient for everybody concerned.

I'm glad you had a good experience with your resignation, but can you appreciate why somebody might not want to go through the process of justifying his decision to his bishop, begging the bishop to fill out the paperwork, and risk getting a call from his mother?  It's an easier, smoother process with the help of an attorney, your personal experience notwithstanding.  

 

I guess I just wear my big-boy pants every day.  

From an attorney standpoint...this is grandstanding.  From a member standpoint, having left the LDS Church in 1989 and the Catholic Church last year (and still getting mail, etc) I say, what is the harm?  If I quit an organization, what do I care what they do?  It does not truly affect me.  This is strictly for publicity.  

[UtahTexan]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

Why did your leaders excommunicate you when you had sent in a letter of resignation?

Yeah...about that....no clue.  I did not go to the hearing because I did not care.  Guess I could have hired an attorney...but...I have this thing about not being whiny

Quote

And, are you now a member or not? (From your later post in this thread):

I left the Church in 1989.  I hated the LDS Church.  HATED IT.  But I handle my own issues.....Anyway, I became Catholic in 2002.  Last year, through some pretty amazing miracles, I came back to the Church.  In less than 100 days, I can request my blessings restored.

(You don't have to answer, if this is asking personal information you don't want to discuss on here.  I'll understand if you opt not to.)

.No problem.....though maybe I shoulda gotten an attorney to answer for me

 

Edited February 27, 2016 by CountryBoy

[UtahTexan]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

I wonder if the fact Country Boy is an attorney expedited his own process. Perhaps his local leadership paid a lot more attention to his request than they would have otherwise. When he says he didn't have to get an attorney involved, well I suggest that since he is an attorney, one was.

Nope.  I was in law school.  I typed my letter on my desktop....printed it, and mailed it with a regular stamp.  I had been home from my mission less than three years (I went on my mission when I was 24.  I was a college grad.  After my mission, I went to law school).  Nor did I sign my letter, Dusty.....Law School Student

So you have presumed incorrectly.

Edited February 27, 2016 by CountryBoy

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

My requests to the bishop were ignored......but my Mom called. 

I'll bet.

[ALarson]

3 hours ago, CountryBoy said:

Yeah...about that....no clue.  I did not go to the hearing because I did not care.  Guess I could have hired an attorney...but...I have this thing about not being whiny

 

I really haven't seen any whining here.  

I think if someone does not want to meet with their Bishop or deal with any of the contacts from their ward and stake leaders, it's a smart option to use this attorney.  Each person has to deal with their resignation in a way that works best for them.  I don't think judging a person for what they choose to do is right.  It'a an emotional topic and a very difficult decision.

I respect each individual for doing what feels right for them.  I have no issue at all with this attorney offering this service and I actually feel that him offering to do it pro bono is a service that may be necessary for some members of the church.

. 

Edited February 28, 2016 by ALarson

[ALarson]

3 hours ago, CountryBoy said:

Nope.  I was in law school.  I typed my letter on my desktop....printed it, and mailed it with a regular stamp.  I had been home from my mission less than three years (I went on my mission when I was 24.  I was a college grad.  After my mission, I went to law school).  Nor did I sign my letter, Dusty.....Law School Stude

 

And, the church did not respect or acknowledge your letter and resignation request..   Instead, your local leaders held a court and excommunicated you.  That 's exactly why some want to use this attorney to resign.

,

.

Edited February 28, 2016 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

As soon as the church is notified, be it through a bishop or letter to the COB...the member resigning is OUT and no longer a member...everything after that is just administrative processing

If that's the case, there's really no point in having an attorney do it for you. Just put on your big-boy pants, to use Country Boy's expression. If you don't want to be contacted, just indicate so in your letter and then don't take the calls. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

And, the church did not respect or acknowledge your letter and resignation request..   Instead, your local leaders held a court and excommunicated you.  That 's exactly why some want to use this attorney to resign.

,

.

If you don't believe in or have any respect for the process, just let them hold their council and be done with it. If you don't believe anyway, it's no skin off your nose. 

This reminds me of those who raise a fuss that there might be proxy baptisms performed for them after they die. If it's all a bunch of hooey anyway, just let the Mormons go ahead and do their silly ritual. From the perspective of a non-believer, nothing happens from it anyway. 

Incidentally, even if they use an attorney, is there anything to legally prevent the bishopric or stake leaders from holding a council in abstentia anyway if they choose to do so?  I'm asking, because I don't know. My hunch is the answer is no. 

Edited February 28, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[UtahTexan]

3 hours ago, ALarson said:

And, the church did not respect or acknowledge your letter and resignation request..   Instead, your local leaders held a court and excommunicated you.  That 's exactly why some want to use this attorney to resign.

,

.

Like I said....that is whiny.  Since I no longer wanted to member, why should I care if they held a court?  I never gave it a second thought because I no longer care...I was no longer a member.  Like I said...publicity.

[UtahTexan]

3 hours ago, ALarson said:

I really haven't seen any whining here.  

I think if someone does not want to meet with their Bishop or deal with any of the contacts from their ward and stake leaders, it's a smart option to use this attorney.  Each person has to deal with their resignation in a way that works best for them.  I don't think judging a person for what they choose to do is right.  It'a an emotional topic and a very difficult decision.

I respect each individual for doing what feels right for them.  I have no issue at all with this attorney offering this service and I actually feel that him offering to do it pro bono is a service that may be necessary for some members of the church.

. 

Naaa....if I was the attorney who was approached, I would laugh......I would tell them if they can't handle something as easy as sending in a letter, they had more problems that just resigning from a church

[JulieM]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you don't believe in or have any respect for the process, just let them hold their council and be done with it. If you don't believe anyway, it's no skin off your nose. 

You have to know that many members desire to resign rather than to be excommunicated and why that is. There's a huge stigma and assumption of committing a sin (that is reason to warrant a church court and excommunication), when that's not true (in most cases I would think).

Members should be given the respect and consideration to be in control of how they exit the church.

[UtahTexan]

6 minutes ago, JulieM said:

You have to know that many members desire to resign rather than to be excommunicated and why that is. There's a huge stigma and assumption of committing a sin (that is reason to warrant a church court and excommunication), when that's not true (in most cases I would think).

Members should be given the respect and consideration to be in control of how they exit the church.

If I want to leave because I no longer believe and/or want to be associated with a church, why would I feel a stigma?  I was ex'd after I resigned.....I felt no stigma...I did not care enough

[JulieM]

53 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

Like I said....that is whiny.  

Seems like you're the only one whining here.  Why do you care if some members are using this attorney to resign? 

You let your leaders excommunicate you after you sent a resignation letter in.  One has to wonder why you'd allow that and not ask that your leaders respect your request.   

Some resign on their own, some use an attorney, and some (like you) allow leaders to excommunicate them.  There's no right or wrong way to do it.

Edited February 28, 2016 by JulieM

[UtahTexan]

2 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Seems like you're the only one whining here.  Why do you care if some members are using this attorney to resign? 

You let your leaders excommunicate you after you sent a resignation letter in.  One has to wonder why you'd allow that and not ask that your leaders respect your request.   

Some resign on there own, some use an attorney, and some (like you) allow leaders to excommunicate them.  There's no right or wrong way to do it.

lol...my disdain you call whining?  Interesting.  But people see what they want, or need, to see.  And why did I allow the excommunication?  Because I did not care after I lost my testimony.  I did not feel they had authority over me any longer and what they did had no effect on me.  But then, maybe Texans just have inner strength....I dunno.  Getting an attorney for something like this is just publicity.

[JulieM]

4 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

If I want to leave because I no longer believe and/or want to be associated with a church, why would I feel a stigma?  I was ex'd after I resigned.....I felt no stigma...I did not care enough

That's great and I'm glad that was your experience.  But you can only speak for yourself. 

I know of a few who have resigned and I know they felt strongly about controlling how they left the church.  They wanted to resign.  I would think most would not want to be excommunicated.

[UtahTexan]

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

That's great and I'm glad that was your experience.  But you can only speak for yourself. 

I know of a few who have resigned and I know they felt strongly about controlling how they left the church.  They wanted to resign.  I would think most would not want to be excommunicated.

Then they still believe the Church had control over them.  And as an attorney, I actually CAN speak about legal clients........

[JulieM]

.

Edited February 28, 2016 by JulieM