Jeanne Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 5 minutes ago, Thinking said: Do you think those exit stories are made up? Good point..my daughter has an exit letter..that broke my heart.
Walden Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 5 hours ago, Analytics said: However, if the person resigning makes it clear that he will not go through the hoops of the ecclesiastical process and wants the request handled without further hassle, the church does in fact have the obligation to accommodate them. The Church does in fact do this. However, the Church does have the track record of pushing this to the limit, and the person resigning usually needs to threaten legal action or engage the services of a lawyer in order to bypass the unnecessary ecclesiastical process. Wow, have I got one for you about pushing things to the limit. When I sent my resignation letter to SLC, I got the standard "local ecclesiastical matter" response letter that the church sends out. Do you think the local bishop contacted me to discuss my resignation? No, instead he contacted my Mommy to tell her that I had submitted a resignation letter....my Mom lives 2 hours away, had no idea who my bishop was, and I was 30 years old at the time. I thought that was absolutely the oddest way for a church to respond to a grown man's request to resign his membership, though it did cement in my mind the need for me to leave that organization. Apparently, the "standard" process for resignation that TBMs on here keep trying to argue is not so "standard" after all.
UtahTexan Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 Someone mentioned legal action. What legal action? Maybe things are different in Utah than Texas. In Texas, to have a claim, one must be able to show damage or harm. What is the harm here? Though now LDS, The Catholic Church still considers me Catholic. My Priest knows I left, but I still get letters, boxes of offering envelopes and the endless stream of donation requests. AM I harm? Nope...I toss them and move on..... 2
consiglieri Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: And if someone is bitter, it often tends to go to his credibility. So the more a person gets jacked around, the less credible they are?
consiglieri Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 13 minutes ago, Walden said: Do you think the local bishop contacted me to discuss my resignation? No, instead he contacted my Mommy to tell her that I had submitted a resignation letter....my Mom lives 2 hours away, had no idea who my bishop was, and I was 30 years old at the time. Your bishop sounds bitter.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 1 minute ago, consiglieri said: So the more a person gets jacked around, the less credible they are? Yeah, that's what I said. Nothing gets by you, does it? I can run but I cannot hide from the all-searching eye and keen mind of consiglieri.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Walden said: Wow, have I got one for you about pushing things to the limit. When I sent my resignation letter to SLC, I got the standard "local ecclesiastical matter" response letter that the church sends out. Do you think the local bishop contacted me to discuss my resignation? No, instead he contacted my Mommy to tell her that I had submitted a resignation letter....my Mom lives 2 hours away, had no idea who my bishop was, and I was 30 years old at the time. I thought that was absolutely the oddest way for a church to respond to a grown man's request to resign his membership, though it did cement in my mind the need for me to leave that organization. Apparently, the "standard" process for resignation that TBMs on here keep trying to argue is not so "standard" after all. And you're still wallowing in indignation over the incident? How long has it been now? 10, 15, 25 years? Edited February 26, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
Analytics Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I would call it an administrative matter stemming from ecclesiastical purposes. And I would repeat that the Church -- and any organization, for that matter -- is entitled to establish its own reasonable administrative procedures for such matters as enrolling and disassociating members. I don't speak for the Church on this, however. And having never served as a bishop or a stake president, I have no experience in this. I'm just giving my own common-sense view. We're repeating ourselves now, so I'll just summarize my thoughts one last time: The Church claims you should resign through the bishop because it thinks resigning is an ecclesiastical matter. People that don't recognize the ecclesiastical authority of the Church should not be required to go through an ecclesiastical process in order to expedite a purely administrative process. Some people are fine going through the church's preferred channels. Great for them. The Church will expedite resignations without going through the bishop if the person is represented by legal council. Some people would prefer to handle their resignations through a sympatric attorney rather than through a dissenting bishop with disputed ecclesiastical authority in the matter. Those people now have that option. Great for them. Last word. 1
Jeanne Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 27 minutes ago, Walden said: Wow, have I got one for you about pushing things to the limit. When I sent my resignation letter to SLC, I got the standard "local ecclesiastical matter" response letter that the church sends out. Do you think the local bishop contacted me to discuss my resignation? No, instead he contacted my Mommy to tell her that I had submitted a resignation letter....my Mom lives 2 hours away, had no idea who my bishop was, and I was 30 years old at the time. I thought that was absolutely the oddest way for a church to respond to a grown man's request to resign his membership, though it did cement in my mind the need for me to leave that organization. Apparently, the "standard" process for resignation that TBMs on here keep trying to argue is not so "standard" after all. Oh No!! If my bishop would have got a hold of my Dad..I wouldn't be here!
consiglieri Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Yeah, that's what I said. Nothing gets by you, does it? I can run but I cannot hide from the all-searching eye and keen mind of consiglieri. That was the necessary correlation to what you said. Beware the Eye of Agamotto.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 2 minutes ago, consiglieri said: That was the necessary correlation to what you said. It was your own nasty spin on what I said. Let's be honest here. 1
Analytics Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 42 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: Well...seems like cheap publicity to me. Maybe he's getting cheap publicity, but thousands of people are getting a service they find valuable. Getting help from an attorney to resign from a church seems odd, but that's because the church makes it difficult to resign by insisting it's an ecclesiastical matter. I'm not going blame the lawyer for that.
consiglieri Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: It was your own nasty spin on what I said. Let's be honest here. You said Mormons bitter over leaving the church have less credibility. I said that's like saying the more a person gets jacked around, the less believable they are. This isn't that difficult to follow, really.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 3 minutes ago, consiglieri said: You said Mormons bitter over leaving the church have less credibility. I said that's like saying the more a person gets jacked around, the less believable they are. This isn't that difficult to follow, really. Goodbye.
consiglieri Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 Just now, Scott Lloyd said: Goodbye. Time to tuck tail and run, I agree.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Time to tuck tail and run, I agree. Of the two of us, who's the one here hiding behind the anonymity of a screen name? Easier to make drive-by cheap shots when you do that. Edited February 26, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
bcuzbcuz Posted February 26, 2016 Posted February 26, 2016 53 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I dunno. I'm not convinced the delays happen all that often these days, in any event. I can't supply statistics. I only know my personal experience and a few (less than 5) similar stories. Requests through home teachers and missionaries were ignored. A letter direct to the bishop was ignored. (Requests from my mother that missionaries try to re-connect and bring about renewed activity were, however, acted upon numerous times) The second request to a new bishop, stated in much brasher terms, finally provided a letter that affirmed removal of name from church records. That letter also contained a warning and caution regarding the removal of spiritual blessings and a thirty day invitation to retract the request. The whole process from first request to final acknowledgement took 24 years.
Walden Posted February 27, 2016 Posted February 27, 2016 28 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: And you're still wallowing in indignation over the incident? How long has it been now? 10, 15, 25 years? Wallowing in indignation? Hardly, not sure what you are reading into my retelling of my resignation, as I found it to be comedic and sad more than anything. There are certainly some things in my religious upbringing and association with the church that I am likely indignant about, but I find the whole scenario surrounding my resignation laughable actually, just the logic of the whole thing. I wonder if that tactic ever actually worked? The strategy of the local bishop was not unexpected in an organization that infantilizes it's adherents.
Johnnie Cake Posted February 27, 2016 Posted February 27, 2016 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: So it is RfM you're relying on, then? I used the descriptor because typically it accurately describes such stories. From what I've seen, most anyone who bothers to write an exit story and post it online is indeed bitter. And if someone is bitter, it often tends to go to his credibility. Wow... That's quite a leap Scott. Exit Story + online posting = bitter. I've come to expect better from you
consiglieri Posted February 27, 2016 Posted February 27, 2016 36 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Of the two of us, who's the one here hiding behind the anonymity of a screen name? Easier to make drive-by cheap shots when you do that. And what on earth does that have to do with the price of tea in China, Scott?
consiglieri Posted February 27, 2016 Posted February 27, 2016 22 minutes ago, Walden said: Wallowing in indignation? Hardly, not sure what you are reading into my retelling of my resignation, as I found it to be comedic and sad more than anything. There are certainly some things in my religious upbringing and association with the church that I am likely indignant about, but I find the whole scenario surrounding my resignation laughable actually, just the logic of the whole thing. I wonder if that tactic ever actually worked? The strategy of the local bishop was not unexpected in an organization that infantilizes it's adherents. Stop being bitter.
UtahTexan Posted February 27, 2016 Posted February 27, 2016 48 minutes ago, Analytics said: Maybe he's getting cheap publicity, but thousands of people are getting a service they find valuable. Getting help from an attorney to resign from a church seems odd, but that's because the church makes it difficult to resign by insisting it's an ecclesiastical matter. I'm not going blame the lawyer for that. Really? All I did was ask my name to be removed from Church records> It did not take an attorney. It did not take a fight. It did not need publicity. As an attorney, I DO blame the attorney. 2
Calm Posted February 27, 2016 Posted February 27, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, Analytics said: However, if an attorney contacts the membership office directly as is currently happening, the membership office goes ahead and processes the request. I'm assuming if somebody makes a credible threat of legal action to the membership office, the church would expedite the request as if it were made by an attorney. I don't know that for sure, but the church does seem to be sensitive to threats of litigation. Litigation may be one of the reasons or even the only reason, but I think it is possible that one of the reasons they simply go ahead and process it when an attorney is the one contacting them is that it is relatively certain it was not a spur of the moment gesture (at least in the past), that there will be no second thoughts, the decision to resign is quite concrete and discussion with the bishop will be a waste of both the bishop's and the soon to be ex-member's time. Edited February 27, 2016 by Calm
Calm Posted February 27, 2016 Posted February 27, 2016 Can't edit...in other words, the time for ecclesiastical counseling is past.
UtahTexan Posted February 27, 2016 Posted February 27, 2016 20 minutes ago, Calm said: Litagation may be one of the reasons or even the only reason, but I think it is possible that one of the reasons they simply go ahead and process it when an attorney is the one contacting them is that it is relatively cetain it was not a spur of the moment gesture (at least in the past), that there will be no second thoughts, the decision to resign is quite concrete and discussion with the bishop will be a waste of both the bishop's and the soon to be exmember's time. Litigation for what? There would be no money award....so, the members would have to pay hourly, or, at best, a flat fee. And the cases would likely get thrown out. It is a sad play for publicity.
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