Tacenda Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 http://mormonstories.org/utah-medical-marijuana-legislation-the-patient-perspective/ Listened to this podcast this morning, it was mind blowing, the information I learned. The panel consisted of LDS members. Story after story of people with different situations. From treatment needed for Crohn's disease to a disease that took a youth's life and her siblings getting the same gene and it keeping them alive and physically able to regain a normal life. A tumor patient that was bedridden for 16 years and with the help of this cannabis oil is now walking and walking big in the fight to enable the bill to pass. One man's story was hard to listen to, he was told he couldn't marry the love of his life in the temple if he used the medical marijuana so he had to go back on the pharmaceutical drugs. He said it's never frightening to go off the marijuana because it has no side affects like the other drugs. One of the panelists mentioned that one person a day dies from pharmaceutical drugs in Utah, and he put out the scenario and asked what if a certain stop light killed one person a day, wouldn't that make you want to do something? They also mention that that the ingredient that has some concerned because they think it makes you high, is false. It is needed for the full affect, and doesn't make one high. It zeros in on the problem area, and gives no high feeling. Unlike many of the drugs that are legal out there and killing people. They also mention that cannabis isn't addictive, such as caffeine or chocolate. As you can tell I learned alot today! I hope or wish that Mormon Stories didn't have their name attached because it will put off members of the church to listen, I hope it won't put off several of you on this board. I'd really like to know your input, it will change your thinking. Or if not, please explain why not. Another thing...what if we replaced the name marijuana, wouldn't the stigmas just evaporate? Another thing besides this mentioned in the podcast, there are special uses for cocaine in the medical field, why not for marijuana? 2
Jeanne Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 9 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: and the war on drugs creates Al Capone and El Chapo! LDS church needs to stay out of politics! and I feel our church walks away from dying patients! Now..here is a man we can really admire...NOT! Sorry...I have never liked Romney.
Calm Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Anecdotal information is not always accurate. Just because it didn't affect him that way, doesn't mean it won't affect others differently. And marijuana is changing, so approving certain types at one level as safe does not mean that other versions in the present and the future will also be safe. https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/marijuana/marijuana-addictive While currently, the withdrawal symptoms may not usually be severe, this may change with the alteration of the drug variations (this is one of the problem with approving it as a whole, you are essentially approving a whole range of drugs, not just one. And there is as far as I know, no control over dosages, potency, etc. The client gets to choose. Quote Yes, marijuana can be addictive. Over time, overstimulation of the endocannabinoid system by marijuana use can cause changes in the brain that lead to addiction, a condition in which a person cannot stop using a drug even though it interferes with many aspects of his or her life. It is estimated that 9 percent of people who use marijuana will become dependent on it.10,11 The number goes up to about 17 percent in those who start using young (in their teens) and to 25 to 50 percent among daily users.12,13 According to the 2013 NSDUH, marijuana accounted for 4.2 million of the estimated 6.9 million Americans dependent on or abusing illicit drugs.3 Marijuana addiction is linked to a mild withdrawal syndrome. Frequent marijuana users often report irritability, mood and sleep difficulties, decreased appetite, cravings, restlessness, and/or various forms of physical discomfort that peak within the first week after quitting and last up to 2 weeks.14,15 Rising Potency Marijuana potency, as detected in confiscated samples, has steadily increased over the past few decades.2 In the early 1990s, the average THC content in confiscated cannabis samples was roughly 3.7 percent for marijuana and 7.5 percent for sinsemilla (a higher potency marijuana from specially tended female plants). In 2013, it was 9.6 percent for marijuana and 16 percent for sinsemilla.16Also, newly popular methods of smoking or eating THC-rich hash oil extracted from the marijuana plant (a practice called "dabbing") may deliver very high levels of THC to the user. The average marijuana extract contains over 50 percent THC, with some samples exceeding 80 percent. These trends raise concerns that the consequences of marijuana use could be worse than in the past, particularly among new users or in young people, whose brains are still developing (see "What are marijuana’s long-term effects on the brain?"). Researchers do not yet know the full extent of the consequences when the body and brain (especially the developing brain) are exposed to high concentrations of THC or whether the recent increases in emergency department visits by people testing positive for marijuana are related to rising potency. The extent to which marijuana users adjust for increased potency by using less or by smoking it differently is also unknown. Recent studies suggest that experienced users may adjust the amount they smoke and how much they inhale based on the believed strength of the marijuana they are using, but are not able to fully compensate for variations in potency.17,18 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 4 minutes ago, Calm said: Just because it didn't affect him that way, doesn't mean it won't affect others differently. and what the people that use medical marijuana because it is only thing that works for them? and what about the power that the war on drugs gives to the drug cartels? and why should our church keep getting involved in politics? I strongly disagree with the church on that issue
Calm Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Quote and what the people that use medical marijuana because it is only thing that works for them? Unfortunately laws legalizing medical marijuana don't limit the drug use to solely those who really need it and have no other comparable options. I think people would be a lot more pro the laws if this was the actual result of the law. You claim to be for science. Have you looked at the studies on whether or not marijuana is actually helping in any statistical way? Do you think a law should be made on it before the science is more complete in studying it? 2
carbon dioxide Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 I am not a doctor so I don't know how valid medical pot is. But I can say that prescription pot is no more dangerous than many of the other drugs found at your local pharmacy. The Church has not questioned whether those drugs should be legal. The Word of Wisdom, directed to the members of the Church, focus is on the abuse or misuse of things. It does not question the very existence of them or deny good uses of them. 2
Tacenda Posted February 21, 2016 Author Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) I was really hoping that the podcast would be listened to. I even wrote an email to John Dehlin asking if it could be put on a different format so that I can share it on FB. It's such an important podcast. I wish the panelists would do another or do something to make this available to listen to without connections to JD with the headlines. Not that he's a bad guy, but he was ex'd and has enabled many to leave the church through his website and it's information without a leaning towards faith in the later podcasts. Edited February 21, 2016 by Tacenda
Tacenda Posted February 21, 2016 Author Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) Calm, you are so good with research, would you mind just listening to this? It's pretty compelling stuff coming from these individuals. Maybe I misunderstood that it's not addictive. Maybe they are saying that if you quit using, it doesn't have the affects that other drugs have. They even mention a doctor that treats missionaries, and his positive opinion of it's use. Edited February 21, 2016 by Tacenda 1
Calm Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) Do they use anything beside anecdotes? Cite research being done? not really interested in listening to it if they don't. While I wouldn't compare the evidence for marijuana to crystals and some other new age stuff, I've listened people speak about that stuff and a few podcasts and read tons of stuff promoting the efficacy of some holistic or homeopathic solution. I've seen alleged doctors' offices stuff full like an ER on its worse day waiting to get the latest treatment. So I don't do anecdotes unless I am looking for stories to tell about something I already know is good. Or the research just isn't there yet and it is necessary to do something. Edited February 21, 2016 by Calm 4
mtomm Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Has there been a void of research because it's been illegal and taboo or because there is not monetary benefit? Why has it taken his long for medical marijuana to be brought to the fore front? Also, what Calm said about no control over dosages, potency is risky and unwise. But I have no doubt of it's benefits. 1
Calm Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 I know there was a problem for some researchers legally getting material they could use in their studies. Didn't volgadon post something about this in the previous thread, good studies are currently being done in Israel for example.
Tacenda Posted February 21, 2016 Author Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: Do they use anything beside anecdotes? Cite research being done? not really interested in listening to it if they don't. While I wouldn't compare the evidence for marijuana to crystals and some other new age stuff, I've listened people speak about that stuff and a few podcasts and read tons of stuff promoting the efficacy of some holistic or homeopathic solution. I've seen alleged doctors' offices stuff full like an ER on its worse day waiting to get the latest treatment. So I don't do anecdotes unless I am looking for stories to tell about something I already know is good. Or the research just isn't there yet and it is necessary to do something. A hundred times yes, they provide research. In fact it came from the missionary doctor. Someone asked him if it's just the placebo affect. And his answer was something to the affect that marijuana worked every time. But will listen again to get the full statement. I wish there was a transcript. Edited February 21, 2016 by Tacenda
TheSkepticChristian Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Calm said: Unfortunately laws legalizing medical marijuana don't limit the drug use to solely those who really need it and have no other comparable options. let adults be responsible for their own actions, the few that need it shouldn't pay the prize. 2 hours ago, Calm said: You claim to be for science. Have you looked at the studies on whether or not marijuana is actually helping in any statistical way? It doesn't matter if it is helping statistically, it doesn't matter if only five Americans on the entire USA really need it, we can't deny them medicine they need. If you want to talk about stats, lets talk about them. 1. Far far more people are killed or wounded by Drug cartels 2. I don't think the anti-drug laws stop most people from getting them anyway. Edited February 21, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian 2
Tacenda Posted February 21, 2016 Author Posted February 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Calm said: I know there was a problem for some researchers legally getting material they could use in their studies. Didn't volgadon post something about this in the previous thread, good studies are currently being done in Israel for example. 1 hour ago, Calm said: Do they use anything beside anecdotes? Cite research being done? not really interested in listening to it if they don't. While I wouldn't compare the evidence for marijuana to crystals and some other new age stuff, I've listened people speak about that stuff and a few podcasts and read tons of stuff promoting the efficacy of some holistic or homeopathic solution. I've seen alleged doctors' offices stuff full like an ER on its worse day waiting to get the latest treatment. So I don't do anecdotes unless I am looking for stories to tell about something I already know is good. Or the research just isn't there yet and it is necessary to do something. If you don't want to listen to the whole podcast, this doctor made some good points! The part with the mission doctor might be in there somewhere too, start listening at the 76:00 mark.
deli_llama Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Calm said: Anecdotal information is not always accurate. Just because it didn't affect him that way, doesn't mean it won't affect others differently. And marijuana is changing, so approving certain types at one level as safe does not mean that other versions in the present and the future will also be safe. https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/marijuana/marijuana-addictive While currently, the withdrawal symptoms may not usually be severe, this may change with the alteration of the drug variations (this is one of the problem with approving it as a whole, you are essentially approving a whole range of drugs, not just one. And there is as far as I know, no control over dosages, potency, etc. The client gets to choose. I agree that there is an effort to increase the potency of strains. I think though there are a couple of factors to consider from the side of the patients. When using cannabis medically, you can be sure, they are being trusted to exercise some degree of maturity, prudence, and wisdom, and it is my experience that this can be done. Patients want to return to functionality, that means being aware of potency and dosage. I can't speak to every case, and my personal experience is the only one I can be certain of, but the amount of cannabis consumed does not need to be at levels that include a high or stone. I cannot say that about the pharmaceuticals I was on for a decade and a half. The body also consumes and uses it differently compared to recreational use. Others, anecdotal I know, express the same, and they are also functioning members of society. It takes a lot of maturity, and hopefully, but not often, guidance and skill from outside resources, to manage medical cannabis use. True of any use of herbs as medicine. However, we are not that far removed from a time when this was a normal part of life. We have a rich example of this in our pioneer heritage. Medicine was practiced differently then, and some of the things jettisoned as we moved into this era maybe shouldn't have been. It was a time when the patient was more involved in the healing process, including the dosing and preparations of the remedies. Modern medical practices have brought a lot of progress and miracles, but more often than not it has also removed responsibility and personal awareness of health practices. Given time I am sure there will be a growth in understanding and skill concerning medical cannabis, but right now we are relearning. I listened to the podcast because it hits pretty close to home, and it is interesting to me that I heard over and over that that choice to use medical cannabis was an answer from the Lord. This was also true in my case; I was actually pretty bullheaded about it and He really had to apply pressure. I take them at their word when they say the Lord directed or guided them to this solution. It is also my experience that the Lord is the best guide when it comes to the question of how to use it, dose-strain-timing, the whole bucket of concerns you might have. He is the Great Physician after all. He knows, He guides. He also prepares the way if this is what He is asking you to do—including direct revelation if needed to help your education. We are raised to expect this in all parts of our lives, do we really think He wouldn't follow the pattern here as well? Concerning the increase of potency in the strains I can also say this. It is concerning in a recreational context, but we are speaking of medical usage. The same principles also resulted in high CBD strains. It has saved me a huge amount of financial resources. Use less, buy less. Of course, mine is blended with other herbs, so I can get away with that easier. 2
deli_llama Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Calm said: Do they use anything beside anecdotes? Cite research being done? not really interested in listening to it if they don't. While I wouldn't compare the evidence for marijuana to crystals and some other new age stuff, I've listened people speak about that stuff and a few podcasts and read tons of stuff promoting the efficacy of some holistic or homeopathic solution. I've seen alleged doctors' offices stuff full like an ER on its worse day waiting to get the latest treatment. So I don't do anecdotes unless I am looking for stories to tell about something I already know is good. Or the research just isn't there yet and it is necessary to do something. There is also a medical doctor (a reputable and respected doctor, I am pretty sure he is not LDS, but that wasn't clear to me and I might have missed it, I was walking the dog) towards the end of the podcast. I don't think the focus of the podcast was about the research, but the doctor does have some things of value to say. Edited February 21, 2016 by deli_llama 1
Tacenda Posted February 21, 2016 Author Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) Calm, the point to listen to about the placebo affect is at mark 98:00. Edited February 21, 2016 by Tacenda
deli_llama Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 1 hour ago, mtomm said: Has there been a void of research because it's been illegal and taboo or because there is not monetary benefit? Why has it taken his long for medical marijuana to be brought to the fore front? Also, what Calm said about no control over dosages, potency is risky and unwise. But I have no doubt of it's benefits. 1 hour ago, mtomm said: Has there been a void of research because it's been illegal and taboo or because there is not monetary benefit? Why has it taken his long for medical marijuana to be brought to the fore front? Also, what Calm said about no control over dosages, potency is risky and unwise. But I have no doubt of it's benefits. If you would like to read a first hand account of how and why it is so hard to do research on drugs like cannabis, I would recommend DMT: The Spirit Molecule, Rick Strassman. It explains some of the challenges facing doctors and researchers in the US when it comes to doing research on scheduled drugs and sustances. 2
Calm Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Thank you for narrowing it down. I have absolutely no bias against using any sort of drug that can be found to be more useful and safe than what is available about there and cheaper is better (between my daughter and I, we probably spend well over $6000 a year on medication and it is only that low because of insurance). I am all for medical marijuana if ways can be found to make it available to those who need it while limiting availability to those who don't (that is a different issue to me; I don't think recreational drug laws should be combined with medical usage but treated as two different issues, I only wish there weren't corruptible or uncaring doctors and pharmacists that are more concerned about their pocketbooks because their practices put a stigma on good doctors and patients who use narcotics and other drugs that are mind altering in safe and healthy ways). My bias here is I don't want people to waste money and time on something that isn't going to be that helpful in the long run. I think there is enough anecdotal information to indicate a significant investment should be made to study effects and develop controlled dosages (one problems with using herbs is ensuring steady and consistent levels of the drug needed, some herbal supplements have little or no trace of the compound they claim to have). 4
Calm Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 The drops and oil that they are describing in the podcast, would they not be allowed under the bill the Church has said nothing about which allows for extracts of cannabis to be used?
Tacenda Posted February 21, 2016 Author Posted February 21, 2016 16 minutes ago, Calm said: Thank you for narrowing it down. I have absolutely no bias against using any sort of drug that can be found to be more useful and safe than what is available about there and cheaper is better (between my daughter and I, we probably spend well over $6000 a year on medication and it is only that low because of insurance). I am all for medical marijuana if ways can be found to make it available to those who need it while limiting availability to those who don't (that is a different issue to me; I don't think recreational drug laws should be combined with medical usage but treated as two different issues, I only wish there weren't corruptible or uncaring doctors and pharmacists that are more concerned about their pocketbooks because their practices put a stigma on good doctors and patients who use narcotics and other drugs that are mind altering in safe and healthy ways). My bias here is I don't want people to waste money and time on something that isn't going to be that helpful in the long run. I think there is enough anecdotal information to indicate a significant investment should be made to study effects and develop controlled dosages (one problems with using herbs is ensuring steady and consistent levels of the drug needed, some herbal supplements have little or no trace of the compound they claim to have). That's why I wanted you to listen to the podcast. I was the same mindset you are before listening.
Tacenda Posted February 21, 2016 Author Posted February 21, 2016 7 minutes ago, Calm said: The drops and oil that they are describing in the podcast, would they not be allowed under the bill the Church has said nothing about which allows for extracts of cannabis to be used? I believe the kind the church ok's is the one without THC. And what they've said on this podcast is that the THC is needed in order to feel the full affect, that may not be true for other afflictions. Maybe the one for seizures doesn't need the THC.
Calm Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Besides just saying there is research out there, do they ever cite specific studies so it can be directly looked at?
Tacenda Posted February 21, 2016 Author Posted February 21, 2016 http://www.unitedpatientsgroup.com/resources/how-medical-marijuana-works This is an informative website. If I was a betting woman, I'd say this is just the tip of the iceberg, on using this for treatment in the future.
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