The Gospel and Politics

[6EQUJ5]

President McKay taught us that that no success could compensate for failure in the home.  This past month I've seen so many Latter-day Saints share some passionate views to the point where I wonder if politics has overtaken the Gospel in terms of importance in people's lives.  Fellow LDS have gotten angry with each other -- I've seen families arguing on FB -- longtime friends going at it.  

But our homes are where the Gospel lives.  Not in political machinations and sophistry.  I think if we live our lives as best we can, raise our kids to be loyal to the Church, and do our part to spread the Gospel, politics will take care of itself.  And look at the early Saints.  They lived under tyranny and oppression but in the end, what mattered?  What REALLY mattered?  Their faith and loyalty to the Church of Jesus Christ.  Why is there any reason to think things are different today?  God isn't going to judge us on our voting records at the polls but on our lives and voting record at General Conference.

When our political views become our religious views, I think it is time to reexamine our priorities.  Thoughts?  

[Calm]

Just as a footnote (I should probably wait until you have more discussion, but I would likely forget):

Quote

Regarding no other success can compensate for failure in the home, John Carmack, former Seventy: “Because this statement was intended to inspire parents to become or stay involved with their children, it should not be taken to mean that parents who have indeed put great time, effort, and sacrifice into parenting, and yet who have still not reaped the desired rewards, have failed.”

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2016/02/when-a-child-leaves-the-church?lang=eng

Back to the topic:

I definitely agree that politics should not come between family members...or anyone for that matter (but that last is obvously wistful thinking).

Edited January 30, 2016 by Calm

[BCSpace]

I agree on the priority of the home, but politics is an important area where one's religious practice and beliefs are on display and have a profound affect on people's lives and spirituality.  Religious views are impossible to separate from political views.  They are one and the same.

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/liahona/1997/06/words-of-the-living-prophet?lang=eng

Quote

“The Church does not endorse any political party or any political candidate, nor does it permit the use of Church buildings and facilities for political purposes. We believe that the Church should remain out of politics unless there is a moral question at issue. And in the case of a moral issue we would expect to speak out on our view. But, in the matter of everyday political considerations, we try to remain aloof from those as a Church, while at the same time urging our members, as citizens, to exercise their political franchise as individuals. And we believe, likewise, that it is in the interest of good government to permit freedom of worship, freedom of religion. Our official statement says, ‘We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may’ [A of F 1:11]” (press conference, Tokyo, Japan, 18 May 1996).

 

[Calm]

Quote

 

If Satan can’t intimidate us with physical trials, he’ll sometimes try to fool us with substitute programs. He would like us to invest our time, talent, and energy in causes that are not the cause of Zion, in the hope they may ultimately replace our commitment to the gospel. Often, these other concerns are valid and worthwhile. The deception comes in giving them a higher priority than our covenants. Those who are fooled in this way usually feel the Church is not doing enough in the area of their pet concerns. They may become disenchanted with the program of the Church and begin to follow “alternate voices.”

These members do not lack zeal; indeed, they are often strong enough to endure tremendous trials. But Satan has diverted their zeal to the wrong causes, and they don’t perceive their shifting loyalties as unfaithfulness. Generally, they do not feel that they are rejecting Christ; they just decide to interpret his will differently or to serve him in different ways according to new standards and values. Consequently, their original commitments take a back seat to their new agenda. But the bottom line is still that they couldn’t be trusted to hold their original course and keep their original commitments. They didn’t endure.

Again and again the Lord has warned the Church about following other voices. (See, for example, D&C 43:1–6.) Right now, there are many alternate voices vying for the attention of the Saints—social voices, intellectual voices, political voices, and other voices. In our premortal life, all of us rejected Satan’s persuasions to subscribe to a plan alternate to the Father’s. Now in mortality, we must do it again. If we are to endure, we must avoid alternate religious “special interest” groups.

I know a man who is going through a difficult time. He is politically intense and is particularly worried about what he sees as events leading up to the end of the world. He sees conspiracies in government and society, and he can’t understand why the Church isn’t as intense and as concerned as he is about these perceived threats. He spends a great deal of time trying to warn other members of the Church whom he believes to be asleep, and he privately wonders if some in leadership positions aren’t also asleep. Basically, his thinking runs like this: “My Church and my politics are telling me two different things, and I know that my politics are true … so there must be something wrong with the Church.” He does not consider the other logical possibility, nor does he recognize the reversal of loyalty evident in his thinking.

There may be some truth in some things he says, but that is not the point. The point is that he is listening to other voices and has transferred his highest loyalty to programs other than the Lord’s. Tragically, his politics have become the idol to which all else in his life must bow—even his commitment to the Church.

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/10/enduring-to-the-end?lang=eng

[6EQUJ5]

23 minutes ago, BCSpace said:

I agree on the priority of the home, but politics is an important area where one's religious practice and beliefs are on display and have a profound affect on people's lives and spirituality.  Religious views are impossible to separate from political views.  They are one and the same.

Yeah.  I guess you are right.  Jesus did preach a lot about how the early Saints should overthrow their oppressors and become focused on earthly affairs.

Your comment is just so silly it's hard to know if you are serious or not.  Because if you are serious, please show me in the scriptures where political and religious views are one and the same.

[volgadon]

6 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Yeah.  I guess you are right.  Jesus did preach a lot about how the early Saints should overthrow their oppressors and become focused on earthly affairs.

Your comment is just so silly it's hard to know if you are serious or not.  Because if you are serious, please show me in the scriptures where political and religious views are one and the same.

That is the easiest thing in the world to show from scriptures. For example, Israel wanting a king and God's reaction to it.

[6EQUJ5]

10 minutes ago, volgadon said:

That is the easiest thing in the world to show from scriptures. For example, Israel wanting a king and God's reaction to it.

Jesus fulfilled the old law.  And Israels's desire for politics was considered evil by the Lord.

Political and religious ideas and values are not one and the same.  Unless you want to ignore the New Testament.

[6EQUJ5]

11 minutes ago, volgadon said:

That is the easiest thing in the world to show from scriptures. For example, Israel wanting a king and God's reaction to it.

Would you mind demonstrating this?  Can you do so using the teachings of Jesus either in the Old or New Worlds?

[volgadon]

8 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Would you mind demonstrating this?  Can you do so using the teachings of Jesus either in the Old or New Worlds?

First show me where Jesus said Tha by fulfilling the old law he meant for us to discard completely and absolutely everything predating his mortal ministry.

[6EQUJ5]

5 minutes ago, volgadon said:

First show me where Jesus said Tha by fulfilling the old law he meant for us to discard completely and absolutely everything predating his mortal ministry.

Nice try.  I suppose I should issue an official CFR?

[The Nehor]

Politics is the science of second-best things. We have a higher government. Mess with earthly governments as best you can to make things better but on the whole it is just not that important.

[volgadon]

1 minute ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Nice try.  I suppose I should issue an official CFR?

Consider one issued to you.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, BCSpace said:

I agree on the priority of the home, but politics is an important area where one's religious practice and beliefs are on display and have a profound affect on people's lives and spirituality.  Religious views are impossible to separate from political views.  They are one and the same.

Well, then, let us have the preaching of politics from the dais during our Sacrament meetings.  Should pose no problem at all, right?  And when the Brethren tell us that they do not want politics and religion being mixed, we should just ignore them, right?  Religion mingled with the political theories of men . . .  No hay problema, verdad?

[6EQUJ5]

22 minutes ago, volgadon said:

Consider one issued to you.

I'll answer yours if you answer mine.

[volgadon]

34 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

I'll answer yours if you answer mine.

Doesn't work that way, I issued a CFR first.

[halconero]

1 hour ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Jesus fulfilled the old law.  And Israels's desire for politics was considered evil by the Lord.

Political and religious ideas and values are not one and the same.  Unless you want to ignore the New Testament.

The problem is that you're tackling the New Testament with a modernist, Euroamerican mindset where there is (mostly) a secular government separate from religious institutions.

From the ancient worldview Jesus was incredibly political. The notion that there was a dichotomy between politics and religion simply didn't exist. The office of High Priest and the Sadducean faction were as much political fixtures and parties as they were offices in the priesthood and a Jewish religious school of thought. The Sanhedrin held legal sway under the Romans due to their expertise in the Law.

And guess what? Jesus got involved with the, commented on them, critiqued them, issued doctrines on taxation, contrasted the apostolic administration of the church with Augustin rule of the Roman Empire, and preached a Kingdom of God which was subversive and revolutionary in its own way. Augustus was the "Soter" (divine saviour) of the Roman, Greek, and Jewish world after ending years of civil war. He was High Priest of religion within the Empire, had sacrifices offered on his behalf in the Jewish temple, and was regarded as the "Divius Filius" (Son of God, through his divinized adoptive-father, Julius Caesar) by much of the Empire. If Augustus was the Son of God, and the ruler of the Empire, how the heck is Jewish preacher's proclamation of the advent of the Kingdom of God both physical and in the hearts of his disciples, his railings against schools and priesthoods which are both political as they are religious, his commentary on taxation, and his overthrow of the market system in the temple not a political act?

Jesus was a political leader as much as a religious one, because in those days there really wasn't much of a difference.

[6EQUJ5]

5 hours ago, halconero said:

And guess what? Jesus got involved with the, commented on them, critiqued them, issued doctrines on taxation, contrasted the apostolic administration of the church with Augustin rule of the Roman Empire, and preached a Kingdom of God which was subversive and revolutionary in its own way.

Yes.  Instructing His followers to obey the ruling authority was incredibly subversive and revolutionary.

And I think your overall argument is problematic.  There were clearly revolutionary prophets in Israel during Jesus' time.  Jesus wasn't one of them.  And Jesus was NOT a political leader.  Talk about reading Eurocentric ideas back into the NT.

Edited January 30, 2016 by 6EQUJ5

[halconero]

One can preach subservience to the authorities yet still be political and revolutionary.

Okay, let me ask you these:

- Did Jesus teach doctrines relating to taxation?

- Did Jesus comment on the governing Sanhedrin?

- Did Jesus have anything to say about the Sadducees, which were a religious and political party?

- Did/does teach about the establishment of a political Kingdom on the eart with global nation states being absorbed into it with all citizens becoming subjects thereof?

- Did Jesus/God/Holy Spirit inspire a certain establishing document of a currently existing state?

- Does Jesus give instruction on how to associate, cooperate, and interact with political bodies?

Edited January 30, 2016 by halconero

[Bobbieaware]

11 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

President McKay taught us that that no success could compensate for failure in the home.  This past month I've seen so many Latter-day Saints share some passionate views to the point where I wonder if politics has overtaken the Gospel in terms of importance in people's lives.  Fellow LDS have gotten angry with each other -- I've seen families arguing on FB -- longtime friends going at it.  

But our homes are where the Gospel lives.  Not in political machinations and sophistry.  I think if we live our lives as best we can, raise our kids to be loyal to the Church, and do our part to spread the Gospel, politics will take care of itself.  And look at the early Saints.  They lived under tyranny and oppression but in the end, what mattered?  What REALLY mattered?  Their faith and loyalty to the Church of Jesus Christ.  Why is there any reason to think things are different today?  God isn't going to judge us on our voting records at the polls but on our lives and voting record at General Conference.

When our political views become our religious views, I think it is time to reexamine our priorities.  Thoughts?  

 

Ezra Taft Benson directly addressed your thoughts with the following counsel:

 

"Moroni raised a title of liberty and wrote upon it these words: “In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children.” Why didn’t he write upon it: “Just live your religion; there’s no need to concern yourselves about your freedom, your peace, your wives, or your children”? The reason he didn’t do this was because all these things were a part of his religion, as they are of our religion today.

Should we counsel people, “Just live your religion. There’s no need to get involved in the fight for freedom”? No, we should not, because our stand for freedom is a most basic part of our religion; this stand helped get us to this earth, and our reaction to freedom in this life will have eternal consequences. Man has many duties, but he has no excuse that can compensate for his loss of liberty." (Ezra Taft Bensom, 'Our Immediate Respomcibility')

 

Edited January 30, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[6EQUJ5]

1 hour ago, halconero said:

 

- Did Jesus teach doctrines relating to taxation?

Not really.  He told people to pay them as they were under Roman rule.  The point wasn't taxes.  

1 hour ago, halconero said:

- Did Jesus comment on the governing Sanhedrin?

Indeed.  Condemned their religious hypocrisy and spiritual corruption.

1 hour ago, halconero said:

- Did Jesus have anything to say about the Sadducees, which were a religious and political party?

The Sadduces were not a political party.  But again, Jesus condemned their religious hypocrisy and spiritual corruption.

1 hour ago, halconero said:

- Did/does teach about the establishment of a political Kingdom on the eart with global nation states being absorbed into it with all citizens becoming subjects thereof?

Yes.  With God as Sovereign KING.  The coming about of this Kingdom is the result of God's power and love.  Also, the righteousness of the Saints.

1 hour ago, halconero said:

- Did Jesus/God/Holy Spirit inspire a certain establishing document of a currently existing state?

Yes.  Because those inspired writers of the Constitution promoted religious liberty.  Do you have any reason to believe God cares about anything else in that document other than the religious liberty it described allowed for the Restoration?

1 hour ago, halconero said:

- Does Jesus give instruction on how to associate, cooperate, and interact with political bodies?

Yes.  Be obedient to civic authorities and perform your civic duties.  Living prophets have reiterated this counsel over and over again.

Thank you for helping support my point.

[volgadon]

6EQUJ5, you have an outstanding CFR to answer.

[longview]

1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

Ezra Taft Benson directly addressed you thoughts with the following counsel:

"Moroni raised a title of liberty and wrote upon it these words: “In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children.” Why didn’t he write upon it: “Just live your religion; there’s no need to concern yourselves about your freedom, your peace, your wives, or your children”? The reason he didn’t do this was because all these things were a part of his religion, as they are of our religion today.

Should we counsel people, “Just live your religion. There’s no need to get involved in the fight for freedom”? No, we should not, because our stand for freedom is a most basic part of our religion; this stand helped get us to this earth, and our reaction to freedom in this life will have eternal consequences. Man has many duties, but he has no excuse that can compensate for his loss of liberty." (Ezra Taft Benson, 'Our Immediate Responsibility')

 

Very much so, even though Book of Mormon describes the "Reign of the Judges" (a setup some ways similar to American Constitutional Republic) as having a inter-dependent relationship with the Church, they had their own areas of responsibilities.  The people knew they had to sustain each other in their offices.  If a member of your family were to advocate greater dependency on the "Elite Few" with adoption of coercive government policies, then it would be incumbent on you to teach correct principles.  While our families are important, Jesus said the following regarding what our priorities should be:

Matt 10:
 32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.  (this has political overtones)
 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
 36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Here are the verses in connection with Captain Moroni's "Title of Liberty" -

Alma 46:
 12 And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it—In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.
 13 And he fastened on his head-plate, and his breastplate, and his shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the title of liberty) and he bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren, so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the land—
 16 And therefore, at this time, Moroni prayed that the cause of the Christians, and the freedom of the land might be favored.
 18 And he said: Surely God shall not suffer that we, who are despised because we take upon us the name of Christ, shall be trodden down and destroyed, until we bring it upon us by our own transgressions.
 19 And when Moroni had said these words, he went forth among the people, waving the rent part of his garment in the air, that all might see the writing which he had written upon the rent part, and crying with a loud voice, saying:
 20 Behold, whosoever will maintain this title upon the land, let them come forth in the strength of the Lord, and enter into a covenant that they will maintain their rights, and their religion, that the Lord God may bless them.
 21 And it came to pass that when Moroni had proclaimed these words, behold, the people came running together with their armor girded about their loins, rending their garments in token, or as a covenant, that they would not forsake the Lord their God; or, in other words, if they should transgress the commandments of God, or fall into transgression, and be ashamed to take upon them the name of Christ, the Lord should rend them even as they had rent their garments.
 22 Now this was the covenant which they made, and they cast their garments at the feet of Moroni, saying: We covenant with our God, that we shall be destroyed, even as our brethren in the land northward, if we shall fall into transgression; yea, he may cast us at the feet of our enemies, even as we have cast our garments at thy feet to be trodden under foot, if we shall fall into transgression.

[thesometimesaint]

I think it is best to keep the two separate. The sad history of this world demands that we do. Until the Return of the King.

[volgadon]

3 hours ago, halconero said:

One can preach subservience to the authorities yet still be political and revolutionary.

Okay, let me ask you these:

- Did Jesus teach doctrines relating to taxation?

- Did Jesus comment on the governing Sanhedrin?

- Did Jesus have anything to say about the Sadducees, which were a religious and political party?

- Did/does teach about the establishment of a political Kingdom on the eart with global nation states being absorbed into it with all citizens becoming subjects thereof?

- Did Jesus/God/Holy Spirit inspire a certain establishing document of a currently existing state?

- Does Jesus give instruction on how to associate, cooperate, and interact with political bodies?

And most importantly, does he make these part of his followers' religion?