Free BYU, The J. Reuben Clark Law School Edition

[Sleeper Cell]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

That seems to argue for Free BYU rather than against it.  kinda silly to strip these students of their schooling, no?

Pointing out that  “Free BYU” doesn’t practice what it preaches is … arguing for “Free BYU?”

Isn’t the core of their argument -- their very reason for existing -- essentially that it is wrong for BYU to “strip” ex-LDS students of some of their schooling?  Yet they think it is OK for “Free BYU” to strip all BYU law school students of all of their schooling.  

 

Edited January 27, 2016 by Sleeper Cell

[smac97]

7 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

Wasn’t the “Free BYU” movement originally all about the poor BYU student who -- in order to graduate -- has to transfer to another school, thereby effectively losing a semester or two (because the new school may not accept all of their BYU credits, etc.)?  

It was started by Caleb Chamberlain, who graduated from BYU  in 2011 with a Master's Degree in Electrical Engineering, who went through a "change of faith" while at BYU, but who "didn’t have the intellectual honesty to stand by [his] beliefs [by resigning his membership in the Church] and risk losing two years of hard work."  So he lied.  "To my discredit, I didn’t have the intellectual honesty to stand by my beliefs and risk losing two years of hard work.  So I pretended to change my mind.  I came to church early every week and sat on the front row.  I actively participated in Sunday School.  I even shed a few repentant tears in an interview with the bishop.  It hurt to be dishonest about my beliefs, to hide myself behind this false veneer to appease the man who had the unilateral power to prevent my graduation.  But for better or worse I did it.  In the mean-time, I grew to resent both my bishop and the church he represented."

Despite this resentment, Mr. Chamberlain presently claims: "I love my Alma Mater and am anxious to see it change for the better."

He loves BYU so much, in fact, that he is resorting to coercive tactics to compel it to change for what he sees as "the better."

Quote

Apparently, “Free BYU” now wants to do essentially the same thing to all BYU law school students. Presumably, if the school were stripped of its accreditation, its students would not be able to transfer any of their credits (not merely a semester's worth) to any accredited school.  Essentially, they would have to start all over again.  And even those who are less than a semester from graduation would apparently not even be allowed to demonstrate their competency by taking the Bar Exam.  

Well, no.  I don't think that's what Mr. Chamberlain wants.  He wants to utilize the coercive power of the government and accrediting entities to force BYU to capitulate to his preferences.  De-accreditation is the stick Mr. Chamberlain wants to use to beat BYU, and the Church, into submission.

I hope he fails.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 27, 2016 by smac97

[Sleeper Cell]

52 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

It seems that any mission of a university is education.  To deprive that from anyone is not even keeping with the fairness that is God.

I can understand the argument that BYU should not have required students to agree to such a condition, and even that BYU should not hold its students to this part of their agreement.  But how is it unfair to hold them to their contractual agreements -- especially after they have reaped many of the benefits?   

[Jeanne]

9 minutes ago, Sleeper Cell said:

I can understand the argument that BYU should not have required students to agree to such a condition, and even that BYU should not hold its students to this part of their agreement.  But how is it unfair to hold them to their contractual agreements -- especially after they have reaped many of the benefits?   

If their grades are up and they are still living to the requirements of BYU standards..they should be able to continue in any field.  It does BYU no good to lose good students who can say they went to BYU,  The learning process in education and in life will often require that they gain new ideas and observe life in different ways.  If they leave the church but continue to be upstanding and outstanding students..what the heck?

[Gray]

9 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

If their grades are up and they are still living to the requirements of BYU standards..they should be able to continue in any field.  It does BYU no good to lose good students who can say they went to BYU,  The learning process in education and in life will often require that they gain new ideas and observe life in different ways.  If they leave the church but continue to be upstanding and outstanding students..what the heck?

You'd think the church would want to retain students who lost their faith, in the hopes of them reconverting later in the faith-promoting BYU environment. But instead they can't get them out of there fast enough. Very strange. 

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Gray said:

You'd think the church would want to retain students who lost their faith, in the hopes of them reconverting later in the faith-promoting BYU environment. But instead they can't get them out of there fast enough. Very strange. 

From the reports I've heard, bishops and other counselors most often work with students for as long as the students are willing to stay open, sometimes amounting to years.

[smac97]

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Hey Scott.  My classification of the rule being silly is a personal assessment.  I'm not trying to qualify that assessment.  We clearly disagree about the merits of the rule.  It's not begging the question to say the rule has no value to anyone.  I've been trying to get out of you why the rule is of value.  And you told me, "By enforcing the contract that everyone is asked to sign as a condition for enrollment, a contract that helps ensure the university can fulfill its mission."  I'm only responding that I see no usefulness in what you had said, since I'm saying the rule should not be in the first place. 

In my mind this is some pretty twisted logic, Scott.  A student who attends BYU and loses his/her faith, particularly as he/she is growing and learning, can still be a great asset to the university.  Indeed, I've met many people who have left the Church, attended BYU and yet still speak highly of the institution and in their profession are well respected.  That's really a big win for the university.  Therefore I disagree with your assumption that the investment of the Church and university is lost and the purpose frustrated.  The only reasonable means there is a loss here is if such a student who loses credit for his schooling through BYU, can't easily transfer to another school, drops out and never finishes.  I have yet to see a reason why the policy is a benefit.  I don't think you've offered anything convincing.  But I'm all ears.   

I can't speak for anyone but myself.  That said, here are my thoughts:

First, let's look at the context.  BYU changed its policy in 1993:

Quote

Former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who want to attend Brigham Young University will no longer be able to do so, according to a policy approved last week by the university's Board of Trustees.

The policy says the removal of a student's name from church rec-ords, or a student formally joining another church will result in the withdrawal of ecclesiastical endorsement and in permanent discontinuance of enrollment."The policy was instigated because there were sufficient cases to instigate a policy," said BYU spokeswoman Margaret Smoot.

...
"The board's decision, which I agree with, is that members who have left the LDS Church belong in a different category than the members of good faith and the nonmembers who attend," said BYU President Rex Lee.

Smoot said the policy will only affect a small number of people.

The policy is in response to a recent case involving a holder of the prestigious Benson scholarship who was excommunicated because she asked to have her name removed from church records in January.

Michelle Warner, a freshman who now attends Montana State, was denied remittance to BYU in January after she asked that her name be removed from the records of the LDS Church.

"Warner's case prompted the policy, but her case does not fall under the parameters. Her excommunication was not for apostasy, but for transgression (according to Warner's church leaders)," Smoot said.

If no transgression is involved, a request to have one's name removed from the records of the church is handled strictly as an administrative procedure. No church excommunication is involved, said LDS Church spokesman Don Le-Fevre.

"When there is an excommunication, there is already a policy that states the student will not be able to continue at the university," Smoot said.

But there was no policy on students who asked to have their name removed from LDS Church records. Former cases were judged on an individual basis.

Former LDS missionary Tod Anderson asked to have his name removed from LDS Church records a year ago. Anderson now attends the Evangelical Free Church and plans to graduate in April.

"The honor code office never gave me a hard time. They didn't threaten me at all with having to leave the university. I just paid the higher tuition required for non-LDS students," Anderson said.

Anderson won't be affected by the policy because he is graduating in April.

But BYU sophomore Jeff Kerby will be affected by the policy. He was baptized Sunday into the Evangelical Free Church, where he has attended since February.

"I received a letter from the honor code office that said my ecclesiastical endorsement has not been accepted," said Kerby. "The policy is pretty cut and dried. As long as I remain a member officially, I have to get it signed by the bishop and he won't sign it. If I take my name off the roll, I will be kicked out of BYU. It's a no-win situation," he said.

Kirby said he plans to take his name off LDS Church records this week.

Second, I do not accept the premise that the LDS Church, or the Board of Trustees at BYU (presently consisting of the First Presidency, Elders Nelson, Oaks and Hallstrom, and Sisters Burton and Oscarson, though I'm not sure who was on the Board in 1993) made this policy change out of malice or ill will (or that the policy is, as Stemelbow put it, "silly").  I have had too much experience in the Church to make such a hostile (and, let's be honest, facile) assumption.  So whatever the reason for the current policy, I don't think it's the one which the "Free BYU" folks have proposed.

Third, I have had some experiences with BYU students who, I think, attended BYU under false pretenses.  That is, they said what they needed to say to get into a fairly well-regarded university, and to benefit from heavily subsidized tuition.  But once they were in, they engaged in conduct which was plainly in violation of the Honor Code.  Some students may have started out at BYU by adhering to the Honor Code, and then while matriculated they mess up in one way or another.  However, I suspect that some students were more calculated in their actions.  That is to say, they get into BYU through deceit, relishing the idea of having their education heavily subsidized by an institution they secretly dislike/resent/hate, and/or with no intention of adhering to the Honor Code (or of putting on a false front long enough to get through BYU).  I can't help but wonder if a policy change now would invite such mischief.

Fourth, BYU has a limited number of slots.  And one of its core functions is to create an educational venue conducive to both secular education and religious adherence for, as a practical and principal matter, Latter-day Saints.  

Fifth, it is my understanding that voluntary name removal is functionally equivalent to excommunication from the Church.  It is a big deal.  "An excommunicated person is no longer a member of the Church, and all priesthood ordinances and temple blessings previously received are suspended. Excommunicants may not pay tithing and, if previously endowed in a temple, may not wear temple garments. They may attend Church meetings. Excommunicants may later qualify for rebaptism after lengthy and full repentance and still later may apply for a formal restoration of their original priesthood and temple blessings."  Excommunication is the most severe "punishment" that can be meted out by the Church (see D&C 134:10).

Sixth, non-LDS students at BYU have never entered into religious covenants and ordinances deemed sacred by the LDS Church, and so will not be held to account for conduct inconsistent with those covenants and ordinances.  This may be why non-LDS students are, in a fairly fundamental way, very differently situated from LDS students at BYU.

Seventh, I recognize that BYU students can, like anyone else, change their views on religion.  That is their right.  But attending BYU is a privilege.  And a heavily subsidized one at that.  

Eighth, I think there are reasonable and principled arguments to be made both for and against BYU's current policy.

Ninth, I find much of Free BYU's rhetoric to be unfair, overblown, and/or lacking in good faith.  I also find their overall objective (asking governmental/accreditation entities to compel BYU to change its policy) to be repugnant.

Based on these considerations, my present assessment is that BYU's current policy was and remains the result of studied discussion, thought, and prayer.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 27, 2016 by smac97

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

If their grades are up and they are still living to the requirements of BYU standards..they should be able to continue in any field.  It does BYU no good to lose good students who can say they went to BYU,  

So you're concerned with BYU's welfare, are you?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

If their grades are up and they are still living to the requirements of BYU standards..they should be able to continue in any field.  It does BYU no good to lose good students who can say they went to BYU,  The learning process in education and in life will often require that they gain new ideas and observe life in different ways.  If they leave the church but continue to be upstanding and outstanding students..what the heck?

If they apostatize from the Church, they are, by definition, "not living [up] to the requirements of BYU standards."

It is pretty much axiomatic that unless a contract is enforced, it is useless and may as well not exist. So the only viable argument here is whether the Church and BYU should require agreement with the contract in the first place.

Of course, I would argue vociferously that the Church and university have every right to do so.

 

Edited January 27, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[stemelbow]

3 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

Pointing out that  “Free BYU” doesn’t practice what it preaches is … arguing for “Free BYU?”

Isn’t the core of their argument -- their very reason for existing -- essentially that it is wrong for BYU to “strip” ex-LDS students of some of their schooling?  Yet they think it is OK for “Free BYU” to strip all BYU law school students of all of their schooling.  

 

Their point is kicking people out of school because as they learn and grow decide to believe a different religion or no religion is silly.  So silly, they feel someone needs to take a stand.  This isn't about practicing what they are preaching, at least not that I can see. 

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

So you're concerned with BYU's welfare, are you?

Thanks,

-Smac

Not really...I am a Ute...but a shame for BYU to lose good people to another University don't you think?  There are some good friends of mine who are grads of BYU.  But having BYU on their resume's have not always helped them.

[stemelbow]

Quote

Second, I do not accept the premise that the LDS Church, or the Board of Trustees at BYU (presently consisting of the First Presidency, Elders Nelson, Oaks and Hallstrom, and Sisters Burton and Oscarson, though I'm not sure who was on the Board in 1993) made this policy change out of malice or ill will (or that the policy is, as Stemelbow put it, "silly").  I have had too much experience in the Church to make such a hostile (and, let's be honest, facile) assumption.  So whatever the reason for the current policy, I don't think it's the one which the "Free BYU" folks have proposed.

I haven't said anything about malice or ill will, of course.  It's silly to me when I put myself in the shoes of a youngster whose working his way through college.  The policy is not helpful to anyone in my mind.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Third, I have had some experiences with BYU students who, I think, attended BYU under false pretenses.  That is, they said what they needed to say to get into a fairly well-regarded university, and to benefit from heavily subsidized tuition.  But once they were in, they engaged in conduct which was plainly in violation of the Honor Code.  Some students may have started out at BYU by adhering to the Honor Code, and then while matriculated they mess up in one way or another.  However, I suspect that some students were more calculated in their actions.  That is to say, they get into BYU through deceit, relishing the idea of having their education heavily subsidized by an institution they secretly dislike/resent/hate, and/or with no intention of adhering to the Honor Code (or of putting on a false front long enough to get through BYU).  I can't help but wonder if a policy change now would invite such mischief.

Seems like a lot of malice to assume any certain student who loses his/her faith applied and attended under false pretenses.  Even if a few people do, in the long run, it wouldn't produce a negative from what I can see. 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Fourth, BYU has a limited number of slots.  And one of its core functions is to create an educational venue conducive to both secular education and religious adherence for, as a practical and principal matter, Latter-day Saints.  

And?  The student is already in, ready to learn and accomplish...could very well be persuaded back into the fold.  Closing the door on him/her is not helping.

 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Fifth, it is my understanding that voluntary name removal is functionally equivalent to excommunication from the Church.  It is a big deal.  "An excommunicated person is no longer a member of the Church, and all priesthood ordinances and temple blessings previously received are suspended. Excommunicants may not pay tithing and, if previously endowed in a temple, may not wear temple garments. They may attend Church meetings. Excommunicants may later qualify for rebaptism after lengthy and full repentance and still later may apply for a formal restoration of their original priesthood and temple blessings."  Excommunication is the most severe "punishment" that can be meted out by the Church (see D&C 134:10).

I'm wondering if these listed are reasons why the policy is good or helpful.  I don't see any reasoning in the above. 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Sixth, non-LDS students at BYU have never entered into religious covenants and ordinances deemed sacred by the LDS Church, and so will not be held to account for conduct inconsistent with those covenants and ordinances.  This may be why non-LDS students are, in a fairly fundamental way, very differently situated from LDS students at BYU.

Seventh, I recognize that BYU students can, like anyone else, change their views on religion.  That is their right.  But attending BYU is a privilege.  And a heavily subsidized one at that.  

Eighth, I think there are reasonable and principled arguments to be made both for and against BYU's current policy.

Cool.  I disagree that a good argument could be made or has been made for the policy. 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Ninth, I find much of Free BYU's rhetoric to be unfair, overblown, and/or lacking in good faith.  I also find their overall objective (asking governmental/accreditation entities to compel BYU to change its policy) to be repugnant.

Based on these considerations, my present assessment is that BYU's current policy was and remains the result of studied discussion, thought, and prayer.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks.  I just wish there was a good reason why the policy exists.  I don't see it.

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Their point is kicking people out of school because as they learn and grow decide to believe a different religion or no religion is silly.  So silly, they feel someone needs to take a stand.  This isn't about practicing what they are preaching, at least not that I can see. 

"Silly."  Defined as "weak-minded or lacking good sense; stupid or foolish" and/or "absurd; ridiculous; irrational."  

The application of this adjective to the policy in question is not self-evident.  So you're doing nothing more than dressing up an insult as an argument.  It is . . . not persuasive.

Meanwhile, your characterization of the policy ("kicking people out of school because as they learn and grow decide to believe a different religion or no religion") is facile.  As in "appearing neat and comprehensive only by ignoring the true complexities of an issue; superficial."

If you can present a non-facile critique of the policy, let's have it.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

Not really...

I figured as much.

Quote

I am a Ute...

I really respect the U.  I came very close to going there for law school.

Quote

but a shame for BYU to lose good people to another University don't you think? 

As you don't really care about the welfare of BYU, there's not much point in responding to this question.

Quote

There are some good friends of mine who are grads of BYU.  But having BYU on their resume's have not always helped them.

Yes.  Provincial and/or secular and/or sectarian prejudices can have that effect.  I imagine graduates from Catholic or Jewish schools can run into similar issues.

Thanks,

-Smac

[stemelbow]

Just now, smac97 said:

"Silly."  Defined as "weak-minded or lacking good sense; stupid or foolish" and/or "absurd; ridiculous; irrational."  

The application of this adjective to the policy in question is not self-evident.  So you're doing nothing more than dressing up an insult as an argument.  It is . . . not persuasive.

 

I'm doing nothing more than stating my opinion.  I find the policy irrational and a bit absurd, which I chose to term as silly. 

Just now, smac97 said:

Meanwhile, your characterization of the policy ("kicking people out of school because as they learn and grow decide to believe a different religion or no religion") is facile.  As in "appearing neat and comprehensive only by ignoring the true complexities of an issue; superficial."

If you can present a non-facile critique of the policy, let's have it.

Thanks,

-Smac

Hey Smac, I offered a one line summary of the policy.  I did not say by so characterizing I was presenting anything more than a quick summary of the policy.  I'm not sure what you're looking for but for a start I appreciate your previous post for why you didn't think the policy was generated from malice.  I'm not sure why that was expressed since no one has suggested the policy was from malice.  But in it you listed some reasoning and I responded to some of that. 

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I figured as much.

I really respect the U.  I came very close to going there for law school.

As you don't really care about the welfare of BYU, there's not much point in responding to this question.

Yes.  Provincial and/or secular and/or sectarian prejudices can have that effect.  I imagine graduates from Catholic or Jewish schools can run into similar issues.

Thanks,

-Smac

Though I am not an avid BYU fan..it doesn't mean that I don't care about individuals who work hard and trying to get an education.  I also believe that you can keep BYU standards..no drinking, clean cut..without belieiving the doctrine..and it doesn't hurt a soul.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Though I am not an avid BYU fan..it doesn't mean that I don't care about individuals who work hard and trying to get an education.  I also believe that you can keep BYU standards..no drinking, clean cut..without belieiving the doctrine..and it doesn't hurt a soul.

The requirements for enrollment at BYU -- and expectations of those who do enroll -- go beyond that; hence the contract.

And since at any given time there are far more people who want to enroll than can be admitted, the university -- and its Board of Trustees which includes Church leaders -- can pretty well call the shots.

[Kenngo1969]

4 hours ago, Jeanne said:

If their grades are up and they are still living to the requirements of BYU standards..they should be able to continue in any field.  It does BYU no good to lose good students who can say they went to BYU,  The learning process in education and in life will often require that they gain new ideas and observe life in different ways.  If they leave the church but continue to be upstanding and outstanding students..what the heck?

I think BYU, its officials, and ecclesiastical leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should grant a certain amount of latitude to someone who confides in one of them a loss or lack of faith and wonders, in light of that, how to proceed.  However, if the primary mission of BYU is to educate faithful Saints (and I believe it is), no such latitude is due to those who attempt to conceal their loss or lack of faith in order to continue to receive a benefit (reduced tuition) extended to those who are faithful and in good standing.

I don't think that's an unreasonable position.

 

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

... I really respect the U.  I came very close to going there for law school. ...

 

Alas!

  The "U's" loss was the "Y's" gain.

 

[Jeanne]

Well, I do agree with one thing..BYU can call the shots.  It is their right.  But I think it is sad.

[Kenngo1969]

20 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

... I also believe that you can keep BYU standards..no drinking, clean cut..without belieiving the doctrine..and it doesn't hurt a soul.

Except for the faithful Latter-day Saint who wanted to get into BYU but could not, because someone who was dishonest (or at least, not up-front) about his or her loss or lack of faith filled that spot, and gained the further benefit of paying the reduced tuition rate reserved for faithful Latter-day Saints.  (It's possible, however unlikely, that Yours Truly missed out on going to BYU-JRCLS for that reason.)

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Except for the faithful Latter-day Saint who wanted to get into BYU but could not, because someone who was dishonest (or at least, not up-front) about his or her loss or lack of faith filled that spot, and gained the further benefit of paying the reduced tuition rate reserved for faithful Latter-day Saints.  (It's possible, however unlikely, that Yours Truly missed out on going to BYU-JRCLS for that reason.)

I definitely see your point.  I wish that everyone could go where they want to go..and be who they are.  You definitely deserve to be there. 

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

...  I just wish there was a good reason why the policy exists.  I don't see it.

"Don't see it" because you cannot, or because you will not?

With due respect, I believe it is the latter.

If BYU's raison d'etre is the education of faithful Latter-day Saints, then winking-and-nodding at someone who conceals a lack or loss of faith in order to maintain enrollment and eligibility for reduced tuition does nothing to further that objective.  (And I'll reiterate, yet again, that, in my mind, there's a vast difference between someone who confesses a loss or lack of faith to BYU officials or to officials of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and wonders, in light of that loss or lack of faith, how to proceed, on the one hand, and someone who conceals that loss or lack of faith from Church or University officials, on the other hand.)

[Kenngo1969]

44 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Except for the faithful Latter-day Saint who wanted to get into BYU but could not, because someone who was dishonest (or at least, not up-front) about his or her loss or lack of faith filled that spot, and gained the further benefit of paying the reduced tuition rate reserved for faithful Latter-day Saints.  (It's possible, however unlikely, that Yours Truly missed out on going to BYU-JRCLS for that reason.)

 

38 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I definitely see your point.  I wish that everyone could go where they want to go..and be who they are.  You definitely deserve to be there. 

Mmm-kay.  You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't think you recognize (or I think you don't want to admit) the inconsistency between your respective positions.  On the one hand, you say I deserved to get into BYU-JRCLS.  On the other hand, what if the spot I would have filled was taken, instead, by a nominal Latter-day Saint who, wanting to take advantage of the sweet deal of having his tuition subsidized by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, simply gave his bishop all of the right answers in order to receive an ecclesiastical endorsement, rather than being candid about his or her lack or loss of faith?

The thing is, if, in the name of allowing "everyone [to] go where they want to go and [to] be who they are," the Church of Jesus Christ and/or BYU allowed anyone in (or allowed them to stay) regardless of the state of their faith, they would be denying that very opportunity to faithful Latter-day Saints who want to go there, because there are only so many open slots.  You say that BYU-JRCLS is being unfair to those who have lost their faith, yet, in order to be "fair" (as you see it) to those who have lost their faith, BYU-JRCLS would have to be unfair to those who have not lost their faith.  There are plenty of places where people of whatever religious (or irreligious, or areligious) persuasion can receive a quality education; there are only so many such places where faithful Latter-day Saints can do so in an environment that supports their faith.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Kenngo1969

[readstoomuch]

This came up in another board, but students didn't realize that they are subsidized about 17,000 per year for their education.  I pulled that out of some estimates given by others.  I am not sure what the right way to handle those leaving the Church is.  My daughter started down the radical feminist road while at byu.  Apparently there was a forum she went to where the speaker was a feminist.  She kept going to Church and graduated.  She kept going until KK was excommunicated.  KK was horribly treated in all of this (says OW) and most of those  in OW stopped going to Church that I have any knowledge about.