FormerLDS Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Anakin7 said: Actualy former that is a bad analogy of True LDS Salvation/Soteriology, it is not a employeer/employee, bank/bankee transaction form/model but an Anchient Celestrial/Heavenly/Earthly patron/client form model, we give of "ourselves" to him who ransomed and changes us with His True Grace. This is done by way of The New Covenant written in our Hearts/Minds - Jeremiah 31:31-33. When we accept/access/activate Jesus Christ True Grace [charis] - which has approx 50 definitional meanings in scripture one of which is unmerited favor by way of True Faith [ pistis ] which has approx 25 definitional meanings in scripture - allegience,belief,commitment,confidence,devotion,discipleship,faithfulness,fidelity,loyalty,obedience,trust. These are all covenant words that are connected to marriage, we keep our True Grace by way of True Faith in our spiritual Love/Faith/Covenant of obedience to Jesus Christ. We come to him with a broken heart,contrite spirit having our hearts/minds circumcised when we our person is open to him and enter a spiritual marraige to him. Thank you for your offers of mess of meal salvation, but we all wish to dine with True Heavenly food at the Heavenly Feast of the Table of God The Father The Monarch of The Universe, His Son God The Son Jesus Christ The Vice Monarch of The Universe, God The Holy Ghost/Spirit The Awesome Testator Sanctifier of The Universe, Along with all its inhabitants in glory in The Celestrial/Heavenly/Mansion/Kingdom. Yes Salvation is Absolutly Free -Nephi 2:4 but it will cost you your very Life - Luke 14:25-35. One Must in True Faith wash there Robes/Keep the commandments to have Christ Jesus Wash there Robes to enter through the Gates into the Holy City. One must strive to enter through the gates [Those that are mentaly/Physicaly able] into the Kingdom of God and of this Christ - Luke 13:22-28. Washing My Robes In True Fath Salvation Is Absolutly Free But It will cost you your very Life In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Let me see if I've got this straight. Eternal life is "free" as long as you keep all of the commandments, right? And that paradigm is totally different then having maintain a mortgage in order to keep your house. No way you're working for that, that's for sure.
Zakuska Posted January 30, 2016 Author Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, FormerLDS said: I've quoted almost exclusively the words of Jesus Christ. Yep, just checked - it's all still there. The Jesus of the Bible offers eternal life to everyone today - not just the promise of eternal life. How do you equate "The promise of eternal life is afterwards" with "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." (John 6:47) and "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." It would seem to me that LDS theology and the words of Jesus Christ are two different things. If Peter had everlasting/eternal life... why did he die? 2 peter 1 14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. He must not have eaten Christ's flesh nor drank his blood? He must have been among those who turned back? Edited January 30, 2016 by Zakuska
Anakin7 Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 4 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Let me see if I've got this straight. Eternal life is "free" as long as you keep all of the commandments, right? And that paradigm is totally different then having maintain a mortgage in order to keep your house. No way you're working for that, that's for sure. You would not suvived long in the anchient Biblical world. Once again it is a patron/client True Biblical Salvation Soteriological Form/Model not a employer/employee Bank Bankee form/model. We walk in the light - keep our True Grace empowered labors of Love by way of True Faith [pistis] In Christ Jesus The person to accept/access/activate/ grab hold of/hang on to His True Atoning Blood Sacrifice [True Grace] so it Changes us into True Saints [Holy Ones]. Free also has conditions as to keeping the gift. That is how it was in N.T times. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Doctrine 612 Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 Why does God ask us to keep his commandments if it does not matter?
JLHPROF Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) 11 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said: Why does God ask us to keep his commandments if it does not matter? The major flaw in traditional Christian thinking on faith vs works is in their inability to see the scriptural differentiation between salvation and exaltation. To them the scripture only mentions 1 kind of salvation so they ignore the scriptures that call for works to enter the kingdom in favor of the scriptures that say works cannot provide salvation. And I can't really fault them for that. Sometimes in scriptures the terms are used interchangeably (ie salvation in heaven being used to describe what is actually exaltation). Heck, even some members of the Church don't differentiate correctly. The EV's are right. All that is needed for salvation/justification/eternal life is to accept Christ. And there they blindly stop. However salvation in the kingdom (Celestial) requires more. And salvation in the highest kingdom (Top degree of the Celestial) requires more. The Bible is clear. EV's see only salvation vs damnation. They don't understand or cannot see that works are about what we will do in our saved condition. This explains EVERY scripture on faith/works/salvation and doesn't force ignoring some. Edited January 30, 2016 by JLHPROF
danielwoods Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 10 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said: Why does God ask us to keep his commandments if it does not matter? I hesitate to respond because Former is doing such a good job. But, the question isn't does it "matter or not" in general, rather the question is how is eternal life attained? There is no where in the scripture where eternal life is attained or kept because we "keep his commandments". Rather, keeping his commandments is the fruit that other people can see that we have eternal life already. "IF you love me you will keep my commandments..." Notice that our love and connection to him is what is causing those who are in relationship to him to keep his commandments. There is no sense of "You must keep these commandments in order to keep and maintain or attain eternal life. No, this is what people who have eternal life simply do. Like fish simply swim because that's their nature. Our nature changes as a result of having eternal life.
Zakuska Posted January 30, 2016 Author Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) 50 minutes ago, danielwoods said: I hesitate to respond because Former is doing such a good job. But, the question isn't does it "matter or not" in general, rather the question is how is eternal life attained? There is no where in the scripture where eternal life is attained or kept because we "keep his commandments". Rather, keeping his commandments is the fruit that other people can see that we have eternal life already. "IF you love me you will keep my commandments..." Notice that our love and connection to him is what is causing those who are in relationship to him to keep his commandments. There is no sense of "You must keep these commandments in order to keep and maintain or attain eternal life. No, this is what people who have eternal life simply do. Like fish simply swim because that's their nature. Our nature changes as a result of having eternal life. Huh? 1 John 3 18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. The very act that gets us saved in the first place (ie believing in Christ) is a commandment from God. So by definition... salvation is gained by obeying a commandment. There's no way around it, salvation comes from and is maintained by commandment keeping. This would also mean that those in the parable that "believed for a while" but later fell away did indeed lose their salvation. OSAS is once again proven a false doctrine taught by false gospel teachers. Edited January 30, 2016 by Zakuska 1
Anakin7 Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) AMEN Zakuska !. That is how we accept/access/activate/grab hold of /keep Grace by a Love/Faith/Covenant of Obedience to Christ Jesus . No OSAS. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 30, 2016 by Anakin7
Zakuska Posted January 30, 2016 Author Posted January 30, 2016 Now the real question is... commandment keeping (believing) a work of righteousness that we Do?
Zakuska Posted January 30, 2016 Author Posted January 30, 2016 FALSE DOCTRINE OF ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED - YouTube
FormerLDS Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 15 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said: Why does God ask us to keep his commandments if it does not matter? Commandments are for those who have eternal life already, not to somehow make one worthy enough. The rejected of the savior in Matthew 7 had faith in Jesus Christ. They performed miraculous works “in thy name [speaking to Jesus].” Yet he told them "I never knew you". Who are they whom He knows? Is it those who obey “the laws and ordinances of the gospel” to a tee? Could it be those who perform miraculous works? Never miss a sacrament meeting, faithful to their callings, tithe, are baptized, turn over a new leaf, start something, stop something?? In John 17 Jesus Christ says "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee". Those who have eternal life are those whom He knows and know Him. Consider which group follows the savior (obey commandments) in John 10:26-28, and what makes them sheep: “But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
Anakin7 Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 Former One must be worthy of Jesus - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/images/worthy-of-Jesus.pdf In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 4 hours ago, Zakuska said: Huh? 1 John 3 18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. The very act that gets us saved in the first place (ie believing in Christ) is a commandment from God. So by definition... salvation is gained by obeying a commandment. There's no way around it, salvation comes from and is maintained by commandment keeping. This would also mean that those in the parable that "believed for a while" but later fell away did indeed lose their salvation. OSAS is once again proven a false doctrine taught by false gospel teachers. You're never going to be able to retro-fit LDS Savlation into the OSAS paradigm. Like trying to catch a greased pig, the moment you think you've got the sucker it slips out of your fingers. Again, to truly understand what OSAS implies, you have to redefine what "saved" means. It is literally becoming a new creature, completely reborn again from a goat into a sheep through no merit or act of your own. Once you are born into the family of God (receive eternal life) you cannot be unborn, EVER. For those sending me emails, the easiest way for you to see the truth is to focus on what Jesus Christ Himself says. Read His words and ask Him to show you the way out. He will reveal Himself to you as He has to me and millions of others who ask. 1
Anakin7 Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 What can happen to a Christian between Initial and Final salvation - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/tragedies.htm In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 3 hours ago, Zakuska said: Now the real question is... commandment keeping (believing) a work of righteousness that we Do? Jesus Christ commands us to believe, but that doesn't make belief a work that we do. Romans 4:5 contrasts belief and works "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
Anakin7 Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 Yes FormerLDS they follow Jesus in True Faith, the one the True Anchient Christians had = pistis - Allegience/Belief/Commitment/Confidence/Devotion/Dedication/Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust To the person and work of Christ Jesus to stay on the True Vine [Jesus] so as not to be cast away. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 6 minutes ago, Anakin7 said: What can happen to a Christian between Initial and Final salvation - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/tragedies.htm In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 For one thing, our faith can die (James 2), but that doesn't mean you're not saved anymore, friends. The faith of Jesus Christ is what saves us, not our own (James 2:1)
Calm Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 Quote Commandments are for those who have eternal life already, not to somehow make one worthy enough. So there are no punishments for those not saved who don't follow commandments?
Zakuska Posted January 30, 2016 Author Posted January 30, 2016 Just now, FormerLDS said: Jesus Christ commands us to believe, but that doesn't make belief a work that we do. Romans 4:5 contrasts belief and works "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Paul sure thought faith/belief was a "work" that believers did. 1 thess 1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of theThessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labourof love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. 5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also inpower, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. 6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: 7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. 8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. 9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Doctrine 612 Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Commandments are for those who have eternal life already, not to somehow make one worthy enough. I like this statement and I will ponder upon it for some time. salvation has been a focus in my life for the last year and it has been a great topic I can never have enough
Anakin7 Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 Zakuska ! Thess can be interpeted 2 different ways, #1 Faith itself is a work, #2 You work The Gift of Faith God has given you, either way a personal responsibility of work is involved. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: For one thing, our faith can die (James 2), but that doesn't mean you're not saved anymore, friends. The faith of Jesus Christ is what saves us, not our own (James 2:1) So we do not have to have True Believe and have True Faith in Jesus Christ, just say the words, and Jesus does the rest ?, Check got it. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 31, 2016 by Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 3 hours ago, Calm said: So there are no punishments for those not saved who don't follow commandments? Doesn't "saved" imply enough?
FormerLDS Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 1 hour ago, Anakin7 said: Zakuska ! Thess can be interpeted 2 different ways, #1 Faith itself is a work, #2 You work The Gift of Faith God has given you, either way a personal responsibility of work is involved. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 I agree! My faith is my work. But again, my faith doesn't save me. The faith is Jesus Christ given freely saves. Is that not what the scriptures plainly say?
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