Vance Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 4 hours ago, danielwoods said: Your interpretation of "Grace alone" is "do nothing..." this doesn't match my understanding of salvation by Grace alone. In other words your saying that the act of receiving a free gift is working and not "doing nothing". It seems to me that salvation from God is similar to sitting in a chair. Resting and allowing God to do the work. Allowing God's grace to change our hearts from the inside out. Not what I would describe as "doing nothing" nor would I describe it as work. Remember when Jesus washed the disciples feet. Peter objected, and didn't want Jesus to wash his feet. To Peter, Jesus was Lord and not a servant, no one who should be washing his feet. Jesus said, that unless I wash your feet you have no part in me. Peter wanted to tell Jesus how to do his job. At first he said, no don't wash my feet, then he said, ok wash all of me! This is a classic example of how many people come to Jesus with preconceived ideas about how Jesus is supposed to work in our lives. Yet, at the very core of the gospel, eternal life is only gained by simply believing it and trusting christ alone for our salvation. No amount of keeping commandments or ordinances will make a bit of difference to the work that Jesus does in our hearts when we simply let him do the work. In many ways, Jesus simply waits patiently until we begin to trust him completely and allow him to do his work. Trusting in Christ means believing ALL that HE taught. No your misinterpretation of what Paul wrote. Jesus taught, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. " He also taught, "but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." He also taught, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" He also taught, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. " Sounds like a work to me.
Vance Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 8 hours ago, danielwoods said: Actually, that is the only commandment to attain eternal life. That contradicts what Jesus said, here, but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Notice the plural "commandments"?
Anakin7 Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 (edited) Jim we want True Grace, The Grace of Jesus Christ, not the Grace of anti LDS Protestants - http://publications.mi.byu.edu/publications/review/22/1/S00010-5176a159eeb0510Gee.pdf In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited February 1, 2016 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 (edited) On this Grace/Faith/Works discussion from a non LDS Christian http://www.christian-history.org/sola-fide.html Note to Vance you may enjoy this. Please read entire page. As with you as well Jim and anyone else. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited February 1, 2016 by Anakin7
danielwoods Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 3 hours ago, Calm said: So in your view a serial killer/rapist would be punished no more than someone who was generally kind, but still in the end rejected Christ as his Savior? Not trying to play gotcha, just trying to understand how you view things (which appears to be there is only one thing the unsaved are punished for and that is for not being saved). I can change the sin of the first to something less extreme if that helps. When I was younger it was more cut and dry and easy to answer this question, but now that I'm not as young and have a more experience I see things a little less cut and dry. The question is who is saved or not? At this point in my life I honestly think that many are saved who don't realize it fully. They follow the law of love and Christ without full awareness that they are doing that. God is drawing them to himself, but they don't realize it's God even though they know what they feel is good and right. So, to answer your question, I don't know. It's God who judges and not me, that's for sure. He sees every perspective at the same time, and is able to make a perfectly righteous judgement. He sees peoples hearts, where we do not. I do believe there are degrees of punishment.
danielwoods Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 2 hours ago, Vance said: Trusting in Christ means believing ALL that HE taught. No your misinterpretation of what Paul wrote. Jesus taught, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. " He also taught, "but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." He also taught, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" He also taught, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. " Sounds like a work to me. Notice we enter through the one called the "door" not by keeping commandments, "Commandments" aren't called a "door" that title belongs to Jesus. Rather, "by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved..." How does one enter? "Whosoever believe on him, shall be saved."
danielwoods Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 2 hours ago, Vance said: That contradicts what Jesus said, here, but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Notice the plural "commandments"? What I've noticed is that you've quoted this more than a few times, while ignoring the context.
Anakin7 Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/destiny.htm In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 (edited) http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/christian.htm In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited February 1, 2016 by Anakin7
Vance Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 On 2/1/2016 at 8:01 PM, danielwoods said: What I've noticed is that you've quoted this more than a few times, while ignoring the context. What I have noticed is that you ignore the statement AND the context.
Vance Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 On 2/1/2016 at 8:00 PM, danielwoods said: Notice we enter through the one called the "door" not by keeping commandments, "Commandments" aren't called a "door" that title belongs to Jesus. Rather, "by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved..." How does one enter? "Whosoever believe on him, shall be saved." Entering is a work.
danielwoods Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 13 hours ago, Vance said: What I have noticed is that you ignore the statement AND the context. I tend to ignore things that I don't think will be productive to respond to. If you really think that passage is about eternal life we can look at it. 13 hours ago, Vance said: Entering is a work. Right. Just like sitting in a chair and trusting that the chair will hold you is a work. I tell my employer that all the time... Dude! I'm working, even though my eyes are closed!
Vance Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 On 2/2/2016 at 9:26 AM, danielwoods said: I tend to ignore things that I don't think will be productive to respond to. If you really think that passage is about eternal life we can look at it. What part of, Matt 19:16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. is so hard to understand the context. Is it the "Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?,question? Or is it the "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments", answer? 1
Anakin7 Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) In the Anchient middle Eastern Biblical world the concept of " Believing/Belief" was/is connected to obedience - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm . dw you need to start thinking as an anchient middle easterner not a modern day reformationist. May True Grace be with you and those that you love. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited February 22, 2016 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) On 2/1/2016 at 7:01 PM, danielwoods said: What I've noticed is that you've quoted this more than a few times, while ignoring the context. How do you read the context ?. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited February 22, 2016 by Anakin7
danielwoods Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 18 hours ago, Vance said: What part of, Matt 19:16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. is so hard to understand the context. Is it the "Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?,question? Or is it the "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments", answer? Your contention is that in order to gain eternal life, one has to keep all the commandments. You've quoted this passage out of context each time. But, what did Jesus actually say? Matt. 19:20 "The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." So, tell me Vance, which commandment is it that Jesus is referring to here? Where is there any commandment that states one should sell all they have? And then notice that Jesus reiterated what he also told his disciples, to come and follow him. Attaining eternal life isn't given to someone based on being religious or just following commandments rather it's attained by through relationship with Him. To know him is to follow him. To know him to to love him (the greatest commandment). He doesn't want us to just follow commands while our hearts are far away from him. He wants our hearts so he can transform us and renew our hearts. Remember Jesus said, "22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt. 7:22,23) "I never knew you..." So one can do all the commands all they want, if they don't have a relationship with the lord, then they don't have eternal life.
Anakin7 Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) True Faith in Jesus Christ - Faith - pistis = Allegience,Commiment,Confidence,Devotion,Dedication,Faithfulness,Fidelity,Loyalty,Obedience,Trust to the person and work of Christ Jesus on our behalf. We must have a spiritual marriage covenant relationship with Jesus Christ in all that we do [washing our robes in his blood/keeping the commandments which are both the same concept] or else all we do is is empty and meaningless in our spiritual journey/quest to go to the Heavenly/Celestrial abode. Not doing those things out of agape love are meaningless unless attended with glorifiying God The Father in the name of The Son by way of the Holy Ghost/Spirit. True LDS Doctrine/Teaching teach this. Washing our Robes/Keeping the commandments show that we are truly accepting/accessing/activating/grabing hold of /obtaining/Holding on to/Keeping the True Grace of Jesus Christ so as to be Saved/Exhalted. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited February 22, 2016 by Anakin7
danielwoods Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 54 minutes ago, Anakin7 said: True Faith in Jesus Christ - Faith - pistis = Allegience,Commiment,Confidence,Devotion,Dedication,Faithfulness,Fidelity,Loyalty,Obedience,Trust to the person and work of Christ Jesus on our behalf. We must have a spiritual marriage covenant relationship with Jesus Christ in all that we do [washing our robes in his blood/keeping the commandments which are both the same concept] or else all we do is is empty and meaningless in our spiritual journey/quest to go to the Heavenly/Celestrial abode. Not doing those things out of agape love are meaningless unless attended with glorifiying God The Father in the name of The Son by way of the Holy Ghost/Spirit. True LDS Doctrine/Teaching teach this. Washing our Robes/Keeping the commandments show that we are truly accepting/accessing/activating/grabing hold of /obtaining/Holding on to/Keeping the True Grace of Jesus Christ so as to be Saved/Exhalted. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 It appears that you are claiming that washing our robes in his blood equals keeping the commands? If this is correct, which commands do we have to keep to wash our robes? And where specifically are we told this (to keep the commands is washing our robes)? Your contention also appears to be that we show we are truly accepting christ by keeping the commands. I would say that we don't show it as if we willed it to happen, but it happens as a fruit of the change that Christ makes in our hearts and lives. We do what he says because we know and love him. He changes our will to *want* to do what he says. We don't change our own will or own selves, he does this by the washing and renewing of our spirit. It's similar to two newlyweds in love. They do loving things for each other because they are in love, not because they think they need to follow certain rules or commands to show they are in love. When Christ changes our hearts we can't help but want to do things for him, and in this context we do things he commands.
Vance Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 8 hours ago, danielwoods said: Your contention is that in order to gain eternal life, one has to keep all the commandments. You've quoted this passage out of context each time. But, what did Jesus actually say? Well, since you keep ignoring the context, let us repeat it. Jesus was asked a very specific question. (W)hat good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? To which Jesus gave a very specific answer. (I)f thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. But, the young man, seemed to be aware that this was not enough, so he asks; Quote Matt. 19:20 "The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? So now Jesus gives the man a commandment specifically for him. Quote 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." Quote So, tell me Vance, which commandment is it that Jesus is referring to here? This is a commandment specific to the rich young man. Obedience to this additional commandment would have moved the rich young man to a state of more perfect obedience. Quote Where is there any commandment that states one should sell all they have? That commandment is given to the rich young man, and it is given in Matt 19:21. You know, the verse you quoted. Quote And then notice that Jesus reiterated what he also told his disciples, to come and follow him. You follow Jesus by doing the things that Jesus did. Jesus obeyed the commandments. To follow him, we must also. Quote Attaining eternal life isn't given to someone based on being religious or just following commandments rather it's attained by through relationship with Him. To know him is to follow him. To know him to to love him (the greatest commandment). You follow Jesus by obeying the commandments like he did. You love Jesus by obeying the commandments, like he said. "if you love me, keep my commandments." John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. It is rather clear, if you have a relationship with Jesus, then you MUST be obedient to his commandments. Quote He doesn't want us to just follow commands while our hearts are far away from him. He wants our hearts so he can transform us and renew our hearts. Remember Jesus said, "22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt. 7:22,23) "I never knew you..." So one can do all the commands all they want, if they don't have a relationship with the lord, then they don't have eternal life. I agree, John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. I will take the plain and clear teachings of the Bible, thank you.
danielwoods Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Vance said: It is rather clear, if you have a relationship with Jesus, then you MUST be obedient to his commandments. I agree, John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. I will take the plain and clear teachings of the Bible, thank you. I will too. It looks like we agree, however, there is no "must" in any of the quotes from the Bible, rather the one who "knows him", "Keeps his commandments..." It's a fruit or indicator of what the believer does. Notice the knowledge or relationship comes first. Jesus changes our hearts first, we don't change it ourselves, then we have the freedom to do as he commands. Edited February 23, 2016 by danielwoods
Anakin7 Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) 15 hours ago, danielwoods said: It appears that you are claiming that washing our robes in his blood equals keeping the commands? If this is correct, which commands do we have to keep to wash our robes? And where specifically are we told this (to keep the commands is washing our robes)? Your contention also appears to be that we show we are truly accepting christ by keeping the commands. I would say that we don't show it as if we willed it to happen, but it happens as a fruit of the change that Christ makes in our hearts and lives. We do what he says because we know and love him. He changes our will to *want* to do what he says. We don't change our own will or own selves, he does this by the washing and renewing of our spirit. It's similar to two newlyweds in love. They do loving things for each other because they are in love, not because they think they need to follow certain rules or commands to show they are in love. When Christ changes our hearts we can't help but want to do things for him, and in this context we do things he commands. Thank you danielwoods for your post, I hope and pray that you and those that you love are blessed by True Grace by way of True Faith. Yes I am equating that "Washing one's Robes" is the same as "Keeping The Commandments". If one is washing there Robes in the Blood of the Lamb they are keeping the commandments, if they are keeping the commandments they are washing there Robes in the Blood of The Lamb. In Rev 22:14 in some versions it states that to enter through the gates into The Holy City - New Jerusalem one must wash there robes, other translations say keep the commandments. This to me is a dual application for how we must prepare now to enter into Eternity to live with God The Father The Monarch of the Universe, Jesus Christ the Vice Monarch Lord of Life,Lord Redeemer,God King Master of the Universe, The Holy Ghost/Spirit The awesome justifier/sanctifier of the Universe. We choose to let the Lord in and change us. We must love Him [ a condition ] and count the cost to follow him [ Luke 14:25-35] in True Faith, if not then we are hopeless. I would say that True Grace empowerement helps us accept access activate True Grace by way of True Faith [pistis - allegience/commitment/confidence/devotion/discipleship/faithfulness/fidelity/loyalty/obedience/trust to the person and work of Jesus Christ] so as we do the works that we do to serve God and man. Not self boasting glorifying Pharisee self rightious works, we choose to accept and use the gifts. We work with the Lord in this process. As with newlyweds in love they make covenants to honor/be true/obey in there love in there heart/mind to one another.But satan and his legion are hard at work with flaming arrows/darts to destroy that inward love for one another. The scriptures show that one can fall out of that natural inborn love and covenants made to The God The Father, God The Son Jesus Christ, God The Holy Ghost/Spirit and one's wedded partner or anyone in love. Some links from an evangelical individual - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/everyNTbook.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/tragedies.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/initial.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm Counting The Cost To Follow Him Washing my Robes The Atonement, It Is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited February 23, 2016 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) No must's but there are a # of the "if" words in connection to True Salvation/Soteriology - http://www.anointedlinks.com/iffy.html In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited February 23, 2016 by Anakin7
danielwoods Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 1 hour ago, Anakin7 said: Thank you danielwoods for your post, I hope and pray that you and those that you love are blessed by True Grace by way of True Faith. Yes I am equating that "Washing one's Robes" is the same as "Keeping The Commandments". If one is washing there Robes in the Blood of the Lamb they are keeping the commandments, if they are keeping the commandments they are washing there Robes in the Blood of The Lamb. In Rev 22:14 in some versions it states that to enter through the gates into The Holy City - New Jerusalem one must wash there robes, other translations say keep the commandments. This to me is a dual application for how we must prepare now to enter into Eternity to live with God The Father The Monarch of the Universe, Jesus Christ the Vice Monarch Lord of Life,Lord Redeemer,God King Master of the Universe, The Holy Ghost/Spirit The awesome justifier/sanctifier of the Universe. We choose to let the Lord in and change us. We must love Him [ a condition ] and count the cost to follow him [ Luke 14:25-35] in True Faith, if not then we are hopeless. I would say that True Grace empowerement helps us accept access activate True Grace by way of True Faith [pistis - allegience/commitment/confidence/devotion/discipleship/faithfulness/fidelity/loyalty/obedience/trust to the person and work of Jesus Christ] so as we do the works that we do to serve God and man. Not self boasting glorifying Pharisee self rightious works, we choose to accept and use the gifts. We work with the Lord in this process. As with newlyweds in love they make covenants to honor/be true/obey in there love in there heart/mind to one another.But satan and his legion are hard at work with flaming arrows/darts to destroy that inward love for one another. The scriptures show that one can fall out of that natural inborn love and covenants made to The God The Father, God The Son Jesus Christ, God The Holy Ghost/Spirit and one's wedded partner or anyone in love. Some links from an evangelical individual - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/everyNTbook.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/tragedies.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/initial.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm Counting The Cost To Follow Him Washing my Robes The Atonement, It Is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Thank you for pointing to an actual reference in the Bible that sort of backs up your claim. The passage Revelation 22:14 says "do commandments..." Or "Wash their robes..." I found this discrepancy very interesting, and I thank you for that, because I love to learn. In my research I found this answer that pointed out that the actual greek transcripts are different, but the older ones have "wash their robes..." so are more reliable for that reason and others. Here's one link I found in my research. http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/8589/why-does-niv-translate-revelation-2214-blessed-are-those-who-wash-their-robes The question is where does Jesus actually equate washing one's robes to doing commandments? The answer is no where. In fact, John did explain how we wash our robes: 1 John1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." We are cleansed from all unrighteousness, not by doing commandments, but by confessing our sins, and letting his blood cleanse us.
Anakin7 Posted February 23, 2016 Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, danielwoods said: Thank you for pointing to an actual reference in the Bible that sort of backs up your claim. The passage Revelation 22:14 says "do commandments..." Or "Wash their robes..." I found this discrepancy very interesting, and I thank you for that, because I love to learn. In my research I found this answer that pointed out that the actual greek transcripts are different, but the older ones have "wash their robes..." so are more reliable for that reason and others. Here's one link I found in my research. http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/8589/why-does-niv-translate-revelation-2214-blessed-are-those-who-wash-their-robes The question is where does Jesus actually equate washing one's robes to doing commandments? The answer is no where. In fact, John did explain how we wash our robes: 1 John1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." We are cleansed from all unrighteousness, not by doing commandments, but by confessing our sins, and letting his blood cleanse us. For me "if" [ there is that conditional word of action on our part again ] we walk [ walk in True Faith = Allegience/Commitment/Confidence/Devotion/Dedication/Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust which are a # of the anchient middle eastern biblical meanings/understandings for True "Faith". which John the Apostle whom Jesus loved understood this to be, especialy walking with the Master Christ Jesus in the Light of His True Grace. Yes we confess our sins to God by not just word but by deed as well to thank Him for what He has done on our behalf. Yes His Blood cleanses us but we must be thankful by how we live to be/stay in True Grace. thank you for your thoughts danielwood and for the link., may True Grace abound with you this day. Counting The Cost To Follow Him Washing my Robes In The Blood of The Lamb The Atonement it Is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited February 23, 2016 by Anakin7
Vance Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 20 hours ago, danielwoods said: I will too. It looks like we agree, however, there is no "must" in any of the quotes from the Bible, rather the one who "knows him", "Keeps his commandments..." It's a fruit or indicator of what the believer does. Notice the knowledge or relationship comes first. Jesus changes our hearts first, we don't change it ourselves, then we have the freedom to do as he commands. WOW you do like to spin things around. It is rather obvious that you MUST be obedient to have a relationship with God. What part of "5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." is so difficult for you grasp? Notice what comes first. "21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me" Notice what comes first. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Notice that keep his commandments MUST come first, otherwise YOU ARE "A LIAR".
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