danielwoods Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) 14 hours ago, Vance said: WOW you do like to spin things around. It is rather obvious that you MUST be obedient to have a relationship with God. What part of "5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." is so difficult for you grasp? Notice what comes first. "21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me" Notice what comes first. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Notice that keep his commandments MUST come first, otherwise YOU ARE "A LIAR". Even you don't believe this. You said, "that you MUST be obedient to have a relationship with God." If this were true, then no one would have a relationship with God, because we are all by nature sinful, disobedient and go our own ways. We also wouldn't need Jesus, if we were capable of being obedient on our own. What is true, is our relationship with God comes first, then he changes our hearts and minds and wills and we want to be obedient to him because he first loved us. He first extended his hand out to us to join ours in relationship first. Not the other way around. "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 Our obedience to his commands doesn't save us. The blood of Jesus did that. Edited February 24, 2016 by danielwoods
Anakin7 Posted February 24, 2016 Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, danielwoods said: Even you don't believe this. You said, "that you MUST be obedient to have a relationship with God." If this were true, then no one would have a relationship with God, because we are all by nature sinful, disobedient and go our own ways. We also wouldn't need Jesus, if we were capable of being obedient on our own. What is true, is our relationship with God comes first, then he changes our hearts and minds and wills and we want to be obedient to him because he first loved us. He first extended his hand out to us to join ours in relationship first. Not the other way around. "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 Our obedience to his commands doesn't save us. The blood of Jesus did that. Hebrews 5:9 http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/obey.htm http://users.binary.net/polycarp/obey.html In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited February 24, 2016 by Anakin7
danielwoods Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 2 hours ago, Anakin7 said: Hebrews 5:9 http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/obey.htm http://users.binary.net/polycarp/obey.html In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; From your first link: http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm "The point is: To believe on Jesus Christ is the opposite of disobeying Jesus! Furthermore, the Greek word translated as believeth not in that verse [John 3:36] is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. This alone makes the crucial point loud and clear about disobedience being a manifestation of unbelief." So, obeying Christ means to believe in him.
Vance Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 10 hours ago, danielwoods said: Even you don't believe this. You said, "that you MUST be obedient to have a relationship with God." But I do believe it. The scriptures are very clear on this. Quote If this were true, then no one would have a relationship with God, because we are all by nature sinful, disobedient and go our own ways. We also wouldn't need Jesus, if we were capable of being obedient on our own. I guess that you don't have the Holy Ghost either then. Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Quote What is true, is our relationship with God comes first, then he changes our hearts and minds and wills and we want to be obedient to him because he first loved us. Nah, You can't have a relationship with God without obeying Him. You can't have the Holy Ghost without obeying Him. When you sin, you offend God, Christ and the Holy Ghost, resulting in Them departing from you. They will not return until you repent, (And I am talking about true repentance not the pseudo-repentance most evangelicals preach), and return to obedience. Quote He first extended his hand out to us to join ours in relationship first. True, and you grasp that hand by OBEDIENCE. Quote "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 True, and we could now say "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were yet unborn, Christ died for us". But that doesn't mean we automatically have a relationship with God. Christ died for the sins of the whole world, including the most vile and wicked people who have ever or will ever live. But, again, that doesn't mean they have a relationship with God. Quote Our obedience to his commands doesn't save us. The blood of Jesus did that. No one here is claiming otherwise. Even the scripture, Quote D&C 14:7 And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God. is in full agreement with that statement. But God only gives that gift to the obedient, as those other verses from the Bible that I have already posted clearly state.
Anakin7 Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, danielwoods said: Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; From your first link: http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm "The point is: To believe on Jesus Christ is the opposite of disobeying Jesus! Furthermore, the Greek word translated as believeth not in that verse [John 3:36] is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. This alone makes the crucial point loud and clear about disobedience being a manifestation of unbelief." So, obeying Christ means to believe in him. Believing and having Faith in Christ Jesus is one of the branches/principles of which includes obedience. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited February 25, 2016 by Anakin7
Vance Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 2 hours ago, danielwoods said: So, obeying Christ means to believe in him. That statement is in direct conflict with this one. Quote James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? The devils don't obey, yet they believe. I think it is more like what Jesus taught, the only way to know of the doctrine requires obedience first. Quote John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. Perhaps if you tried obedience first, you could really get to know the doctrine.
danielwoods Posted February 25, 2016 Posted February 25, 2016 15 hours ago, Vance said: That statement is in direct conflict with this one. The devils don't obey, yet they believe. I think it is more like what Jesus taught, the only way to know of the doctrine requires obedience first. Perhaps if you tried obedience first, you could really get to know the doctrine. Perhaps it's in direct conflict in your opinion, to my view it fits just fine.
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