FormerLDS Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 Well, friends I think this has gone on enough for me. For those willing to see the obvious, the truth should be quite clear. Those who simply will not see that which is right before their eyes are blind indeed.
Anakin7 Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) Yes we see this True Faith - pistis = Allegience/Belief/Commitment/Confidence/Dedication/Devotion/Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust to the person and work of Christ Jesus. We do this to keep The New Covenant Written in our Hearts/Minds [Covenant The spiritual marriage to Christ Jesus] to stay in True Grace [charis]. That Faith does Save for it keeps True Grace alive to have Garments washed in His [Jesus Christ] Blood. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 31, 2016 by Anakin7
danielwoods Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 3 hours ago, Zakuska said: Paul sure thought faith/belief was a "work" that believers did. 1 thess 1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of theThessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labourof love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. 5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also inpower, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. 6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: 7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. 8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. 9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. The reference to their work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope could very well have been their daily ministerial work of preaching and teaching and reaching out to those around them. Paul was remembering their work in his prayers.
Anakin7 Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) For Former - Thank you for sharing with us. A gift for you - http://rsc.byu.edu/es/archived/selected-articles/faith-christ In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 31, 2016 by Anakin7
Vance Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 9 hours ago, danielwoods said: There is no where in the scripture where eternal life is attained or kept because we "keep his commandments". Matt 19:16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God:(AND THEN JESUS SAID) but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Jesus said it and I believe it. 1
Zakuska Posted January 31, 2016 Author Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) And the first commandment we have to keep to obtain etetnal life is "believe in Christ". 1 John 3 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. Edited January 31, 2016 by Zakuska
Anakin7 Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) 28 minutes ago, danielwoods said: The reference to their work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope could very well have been their daily ministerial work of preaching and teaching and reaching out to those around them. Paul was remembering their work in his prayers. Yes there work of True Faith - pistis - allegience/Belief/Commitment/Confidence/Dedication/Discipleship/Faithfulness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust to the person and work of Christ Jesus. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 31, 2016 by Anakin7
Calm Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Doesn't "saved" imply enough? I am talking about those not saved. Are they punished for not following commandments or not?
JLHPROF Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Well, friends I think this has gone on enough for me. For those willing to see the obvious, the truth should be quite clear. Those who simply will not see that which is right before their eyes are blind indeed. Right back at ya. The silly thing is that Mormons and "traditional" Christians actually agree on the requirements for salvation and eternal life. It's only the what happens after that we disagree on.
Anakin7 Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) I believe that some LDS Christians and some non LDS Christians here and beyond will find this helpful perhaps - http://www.christian-history.org/sola-fide.html In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 31, 2016 by Anakin7
Thinking Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 There is a lot of playing with semantics going on in this thread. 1
Anakin7 Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 Really ?, you don't say !. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 1
JLHPROF Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 13 minutes ago, Thinking said: There is a lot of playing with semantics going on in this thread. My point exactly.
danielwoods Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 12 hours ago, Zakuska said: And the first commandment we have to keep to obtain etetnal life is "believe in Christ". 1 John 3 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. Actually, that is the only commandment to attain eternal life.
Zakuska Posted January 31, 2016 Author Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) Just now, danielwoods said: Actually, that is the only commandment to attain eternal life. And it blows the theory of grace alone out the window along with all its false treachers. Edited January 31, 2016 by Zakuska 1
danielwoods Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 11 hours ago, Calm said: I am talking about those not saved. Are they punished for not following commandments or not? The unsaved are not saved from their sin and the punishment therein. Jesus talks about that quite clearly, I think.
danielwoods Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 11 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Right back at ya. The silly thing is that Mormons and "traditional" Christians actually agree on the requirements for salvation and eternal life. It's only the what happens after that we disagree on. Actually, I think that Former demonstrated that there is a large disagreement between the requirements placed on people by the two camps.
danielwoods Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 7 minutes ago, Zakuska said: And it blows the theory of grace alone out the window along with all its false treachers. In what way? Grace is received by believing that Christ's work was sufficient. That complete faith and trust in his work for our salvation is all that is needed.
Zakuska Posted January 31, 2016 Author Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, danielwoods said: In what way? Grace is received by believing that Christ's work was sufficient. That complete faith and trust in his work for our salvation is all that is needed. Grace alone dictates you do nothing what so ever for your salvation. You do absolutely zero. No commandment keeping at all. Yet the very thing that gets us saved is a commandment. So you can't get saved without keeping the commandment. Commandment keeping preceeds the gift of grace. This is contra what grace/false Gospel teachers preach. Edited January 31, 2016 by Zakuska 1
JLHPROF Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 1 hour ago, danielwoods said: Actually, I think that Former demonstrated that there is a large disagreement between the requirements placed on people by the two camps. No, actually, the requirements for salvation/eternal life are the same in both "camps".
Calm Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, danielwoods said: The unsaved are not saved from their sin and the punishment therein. Jesus talks about that quite clearly, I think. Do you see commandments as only being for the saved then? How would the punishment be just if the commandments didn't apply to them? Edited January 31, 2016 by Calm
danielwoods Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Zakuska said: Grace alone dictates you do nothing what so ever for your salvation. You do absolutely zero. No commandment keeping at all. Yet the very thing that gets us saved is a commandment. So you can't get saved without keeping the commandment. Commandment keeping preceeds the gift of grace. Yhis id contra what grace/false Gospel teachers preach. Your interpretation of "Grace alone" is "do nothing..." this doesn't match my understanding of salvation by Grace alone. In other words your saying that the act of receiving a free gift is working and not "doing nothing". It seems to me that salvation from God is similar to sitting in a chair. Resting and allowing God to do the work. Allowing God's grace to change our hearts from the inside out. Not what I would describe as "doing nothing" nor would I describe it as work. Remember when Jesus washed the disciples feet. Peter objected, and didn't want Jesus to wash his feet. To Peter, Jesus was Lord and not a servant, no one who should be washing his feet. Jesus said, that unless I wash your feet you have no part in me. Peter wanted to tell Jesus how to do his job. At first he said, no don't wash my feet, then he said, ok wash all of me! This is a classic example of how many people come to Jesus with preconceived ideas about how Jesus is supposed to work in our lives. Yet, at the very core of the gospel, eternal life is only gained by simply believing it and trusting christ alone for our salvation. No amount of keeping commandments or ordinances will make a bit of difference to the work that Jesus does in our hearts when we simply let him do the work. In many ways, Jesus simply waits patiently until we begin to trust him completely and allow him to do his work. Edited January 31, 2016 by danielwoods
danielwoods Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 37 minutes ago, Calm said: Do you see commandments as only being for the saved then? How would the punishment be just if the commandments didn't apply to them? Rejecting the love and fellowship of God in Christ is what causes separation from God, the pain and punishment result from this rejection. Yes, those who love and follow Christ will want to live as he lived, but that is the key, God changes our will, we don't do that by force either external or internal.
Calm Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) So in your view a serial killer/rapist would be punished no more than someone who was generally kind, but still in the end rejected Christ as his Savior? Not trying to play gotcha, just trying to understand how you view things (which appears to be there is only one thing the unsaved are punished for and that is for not being saved). I can change the sin of the first to something less extreme if that helps. Edited January 31, 2016 by Calm
Vance Posted February 1, 2016 Posted February 1, 2016 8 hours ago, danielwoods said: In what way? Grace is received by believing that Christ's work was sufficient. That complete faith and trust in his work for our salvation is all that is needed. We have already demonstrated that the Evangelical definition of grace is WRONG. When you have the correct understanding of grace then we can really talk about it. What you are admitting in this post is that you have to DO something to receive grace. Thank you for the admission.
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