alemanrc Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 The Atonement is the biggest gift given to man. It is the responsibility of all of us to understand what the Atonement is as taught by the prophet Alma. It is not only important to know what the Atonement is, but it is also more important to fully understand and to feel it in your heart what is means for each of us. Many of us believe that the Atonement is nothing more than the Crucifixion of Christ. It is something that each one of us must take advantage of in order to reach eternal life. No one is exempt from or can say they do not need the Atonement or to be forgiving. Man is not free from sin, and even the most spiritual or righteous person must repent for their sins as the natural man is not sin free.
Calm Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 Like love, I believe understanding the Atonement will only come through seeking it out and experiencing it. (grandkids here, cutting this short)
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 The atonement is the most important event that ever happened.
JLHPROF Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 25 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: The atonement is the most important event that ever happened. I agree, but that's still a very interesting statement. Without the fall there wouldn't have been an atonement. So was the fall also extremely important? What was the most important event prior to the atonement? What future events into the eternities could become more impactful?
SamIam Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 31 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I agree, but that's still a very interesting statement. Without the fall there wouldn't have been an atonement. So was the fall also extremely important? What was the most important event prior to the atonement? What future events into the eternities could become more impactful? I tend to agree with this mindset. Whenever we discuss a culminating event as superlative when in actuality it is part of a process or series of related events I am convinced that we will fail to grasp the significance of each of the other events that are self-existent in their necessity. However, I am also convinced that the only way to properly understand these contributing events is to see them from the perspective of how they contributed to the culminating event. When we consider that without the council in heaven there was no atonement, without the creation - no atonement, without the fall - no atonement, without plural marriage - no atonement, we begin to see that each of the building events is enhanced by understanding each's contribution to the atonement.
St. Bookmark Posted January 17, 2016 Posted January 17, 2016 We need all of it, we can't know the good without the bad.
The Nehor Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 11 minutes ago, SamIam said: I tend to agree with this mindset. Whenever we discuss a culminating event as superlative when in actuality it is part of a process or series of related events I am convinced that we will fail to grasp the significance of each of the other events that are self-existent in their necessity. However, I am also convinced that the only way to properly understand these contributing events is to see them from the perspective of how they contributed to the culminating event. When we consider that without the council in heaven there was no atonement, without the creation - no atonement, without the fall - no atonement, without plural marriage - no atonement, we begin to see that each of the building events is enhanced by understanding each's contribution to the atonement. I agree but I think the atonement is much more important to focus on. A basic comprehension of the Fall is necessary but we do not have a lot of lessons in the Church about applying the Fall in your life. Same with things like Creation, Second Coming, Final Judgement, and the like. Everything seems to relate to the atonement which makes it the center of the faith. 2
SamIam Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I agree but I think the atonement is much more important to focus on. A basic comprehension of the Fall is necessary but we do not have a lot of lessons in the Church about applying the Fall in your life. Same with things like Creation, Second Coming, Final Judgement, and the like. Everything seems to relate to the atonement which makes it the center of the faith. Fair point and certainly true from a perspective. My personal observation, from which I base my previous statement is that, as I understand the parts which led to the atonement more comprehensively then I am more appreciative, more grateful and more in awe of the wonderful mechanics that come to bear as each of the events laid the appropriate foundation for the next until the atonement ties it all together. For instance the scriptures frequently juxtapose the demands of justice against mercy. They speak to dire consequences if mercy should rob justice. They inform us that through the atonement the price of the demands of justice is paid. However, the mechanics of how the atonement precisely pays the demands of justice is never so clearly spelled out that many can with exactness describe how it works. However, understanding the mechanism and the necessity of each piece in its place completely magnifies in wonderful ways the brilliance of the plan of salvation and its integrated processes. However, unless one precisely understands what caused the fall, one cannot understand why justice has its claims and how the atonement paid the price and permitted mercy . Edited January 18, 2016 by SamIam
CV75 Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: I agree, but that's still a very interesting statement. Without the fall there wouldn't have been an atonement. So was the fall also extremely important? What was the most important event prior to the atonement? What future events into the eternities could become more impactful? The plan of redemption (atonement) was prepared from before the foundation of the world through Christ (Alma 22:13; Mosiah 4:6-7). So it seems that the Atonement, regardless of how He might carry it out, was the essential factor in making God’s children like Him (Alma 13:5-7; Ephesians 1:3-4) regardless of how they might fall or become separated from Him along the way. “The” Fall is how mortality and separation from God are defined for us in our world. “The” Atonement is how the Lord saved all His creations while in the mortal flesh, which He performed in our world. The Fall may be defined in different worlds in different ways, but for all these worlds, The Atonement was prepared for all of them (1 Moses 33, 37-40). Because of His central role all along, even before the foundation of the world, everything else seems to be an appendage to Christ’s atonement. Joseph Smith taught, “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven [I take this to be His Atonement, though it is not mentioned specifically by its name]; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 121). So I think all the steps along the way are important and essential, but preparing and naming it the “plan of atonement” from before the foundation of the world is to recognize the absolute and central role of Christ in submitting to the Father’s will to bride the estates from pre-mortal existence to exaltation to bring about the work and glory of the Father. If Christ couldn’t submit, none of us could. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: A basic comprehension of the Fall is necessary but we do not have a lot of lessons in the Church about applying the Fall in your life. More than you think. Most lessons on the atonement cover the effects of the fall in our lives. Every time we hear that the natural man is an enemy to God and discuss how that is true we are discussing how the fall is applied in our mortal existence and how it must be overcome.
JLHPROF Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 1 hour ago, CV75 said: The plan of redemption (atonement) was prepared from before the foundation of the world through Christ (Alma 22:13; Mosiah 4:6-7). So it seems that the Atonement, regardless of how He might carry it out, was the essential factor in making God’s children like Him (Alma 13:5-7; Ephesians 1:3-4) regardless of how they might fall or become separated from Him along the way. “The” Fall is how mortality and separation from God are defined for us in our world. “The” Atonement is how the Lord saved all His creations while in the mortal flesh, which He performed in our world. The Fall may be defined in different worlds in different ways, but for all these worlds, The Atonement was prepared for all of them (1 Moses 33, 37-40). Because of His central role all along, even before the foundation of the world, everything else seems to be an appendage to Christ’s atonement. Joseph Smith taught, “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven [I take this to be His Atonement, though it is not mentioned specifically by its name]; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 121). So I think all the steps along the way are important and essential, but preparing and naming it the “plan of atonement” from before the foundation of the world is to recognize the absolute and central role of Christ in submitting to the Father’s will to bride the estates from pre-mortal existence to exaltation to bring about the work and glory of the Father. If Christ couldn’t submit, none of us could. Sometimes it's almost like we forget about the purpose of the atonement and instead spend all our time singing praises on how wonderful it is. The atonement is both marvelously simple and incredibly complex. I really like your approach of submission to the meaning behind the atonement. I think we sometimes forget why an atonement was needed, what the purpose and design of the atonement is. We occasionally forget the theology of sacrifice, justice, and mercy and the satisfaction of eternal law and instead prefer to wax evangelical about it as only relating to our personal relationship to God. Both are correct, but I have seen people fall away from the Church by leaning too far either way.
The Nehor Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: More than you think. Most lessons on the atonement cover the effects of the fall in our lives. Every time we hear that the natural man is an enemy to God and discuss how that is true we are discussing how the fall is applied in our mortal existence and how it must be overcome. Yes but no one is pro-Fall in the sense they want more of it. Knowledge that it happened is vital, it is part of who we are but it is the enemy. It is to be subdued and overcome.
CV75 Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 14 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Sometimes it's almost like we forget about the purpose of the atonement and instead spend all our time singing praises on how wonderful it is. The atonement is both marvelously simple and incredibly complex. I really like your approach of submission to the meaning behind the atonement. I think we sometimes forget why an atonement was needed, what the purpose and design of the atonement is. We occasionally forget the theology of sacrifice, justice, and mercy and the satisfaction of eternal law and instead prefer to wax evangelical about it as only relating to our personal relationship to God. Both are correct, but I have seen people fall away from the Church by leaning too far either way. I just happened to be reading Chapter 6 in the lesson manual https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-howard-w-hunter/chapter-6-the-atonement-and-resurrection-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng “…nothing is more important in the entire divine plan of salvation than the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We believe that salvation comes because of the atonement. In its absence the whole plan of creation would come to naught. … Without this atoning sacrifice, temporal death would be the end, and there would be no resurrection and no purpose in our spiritual lives. There would be no hope of eternal life.” Later he says, “No doctrine in the Christian canon is more important to all mankind than the doctrine of the resurrection of the Son of God,” and “Surely the resurrection is the center of every Christian’s faith; it is the greatest of all of the miracles performed by the Savior of the world.” And yet we also know that eternal life (exaltation) is the greatest of all the gifts or miracles of God (D&C 14:7). So rather than being equally important, I think they are the same thing: the resurrection is as much a manifestation of the atonement as the remission of sins is. I see an interesting connection here with the temple, which like the atonement also “was instituted from before the foundation of the world.” (D&C 124:33)
consiglieri Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I agree, but that's still a very interesting statement. Without the fall there wouldn't have been an atonement. So was the fall also extremely important? What was the most important event prior to the atonement? What future events into the eternities could become more impactful? I tend to think the linkage of the atonement to the fall is a late construct of Paul that ended up becoming popular. I believe there is no link between the Atonement and the Fall. And that is a good thing, because the Fall almost certainly never happened.
bluebell Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 57 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I tend to think the linkage of the atonement to the fall is a late construct of Paul that ended up becoming popular. I believe there is no link between the Atonement and the Fall. And that is a good thing, because the Fall almost certainly never happened. How do you explain the link between the fall and the atonement presented in the book of mormon?
JLHPROF Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: I tend to think the linkage of the atonement to the fall is a late construct of Paul that ended up becoming popular. I believe there is no link between the Atonement and the Fall. And that is a good thing, because the Fall almost certainly never happened. The problem with that is there would be no need for the atonement then.
consiglieri Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 36 minutes ago, bluebell said: How do you explain the link between the fall and the atonement presented in the book of mormon? A recapitulation of the position Paul made popular. (Geez, with all that "p" alliteration, I should be a GA!)
consiglieri Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 32 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: The problem with that is there would be no need for the atonement then. This is what I thought for decades. Then it occurred to me that the story of the Fall is not necessarily historical--in fact, from my point of view, it almost assuredly is not. I do not believe there was ever a literal Adam or a literal Eve or a literal talking snake or a literal Garden of Eden or a literal tree of knowledge. There is nothing in the Old Testament to my knowledge that links this "Fall" to a sinful state from which men and women must recover. But I do recognize that the story of the Fall is replete with etiological stories; i.e., stories that explain why it is things are the way they are. It explains how mankind came to be; it explains why it is that men are forced to work for their bread; it explains why it is that women are the ones who bear children, and so forth. Recognizing that the Fall indisputably serves these etiological purposes, is it possible that, within Christianity, it also serves the etiological purpose of why it is a Savior was necessary? This is an important contribution of Paul, whom historians tend to agree was the most influential person in the history of western Christianity. (Not Jesus--Paul.) Paul uses the Fall as an etiology to explain why it is that people have sinful predispositions. From my point of view, I agree that people do tend to have sinful predispositions. Some more than others. But the fact that people do have sinful predispositions does not require a catalyst, from my point of view. It requires no cause. It is simply because it is the way things are. A belief that the Atonement helps in some way overcome humanity's sinful predispositions (or at least their consequences) therefore in no way necessitates a belief in the Fall. Which means it does not necessitate a belief that there was ever a literal Adam or a literal Eve or a literal talking snake or a literal Garden of Eden or a literal tree of knowledge.
bluebell Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 17 minutes ago, consiglieri said: A recapitulation of the position Paul made popular. (Geez, with all that "p" alliteration, I should be a GA!) But the BOM writers didn't know Paul.
consiglieri Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 Just now, bluebell said: But the BOM writers didn't know Paul. Then how do they quote him so prolifically?
bluebell Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 Just now, consiglieri said: Then how do they quote him so prolifically? Maybe because both they and Paul are working from the same source.
consiglieri Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 1 minute ago, bluebell said: Maybe because both they and Paul are working from the same source. A lame justification, but I hasten to add it is one that I used to say on occasion, following Nibley's lead. Nevertheless, and more to the point, even if they are working from the same source, it remains an etiological story designed to explain why it is that people are predisposed to bad acts. And it is a story that is in reality theologically unlinked to the teaching of the Atonement.
bluebell Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 1 minute ago, consiglieri said: A lame justification, but I hasten to add it is one that I used to say on occasion, following Nibley's lead. Nevertheless, and more to the point, even if they are working from the same source, it remains an etiological story designed to explain why it is that people are predisposed to bad acts. And it is a story that is in reality theologically unlinked to the teaching of the Atonement. You say these things like you have some kind of authority to proclaim the doctrines of the gospel. As if your word on it settles the question. Can you give me a reason to follow your teachings? Can you bear testimony to me of the truthfulness of what you are proclaiming about the fall and the atonement? Sincere question and not sarcastically asked. 1
consiglieri Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 1 minute ago, bluebell said: You say these things like you have some kind of authority to proclaim the doctrines of the gospel. As if your word on it settles the question. Can you give me a reason to follow your teachings? Can you bear testimony to me of the truthfulness of what you are proclaiming about the fall and the atonement? Sincere question and not sarcastically asked. I appreciate your question, Bluebell! I am not asking you to follow my teachings. I have no testimony to bear in this regard. To be clear, I am not saying the Fall never happened. All I am saying is that I have come to the conclusion that the actuality of the Fall is in no way a requirement for the actuality of the Atonement. This is a theological argument that was made up thousands of years after the events described in Genesis 1-3. Just as it was a theological argument that turned the snake in Genesis into the devil. I have no interest in persuading others to agree with me. I am just sharing where I am at, and how I got here. If it is helpful, people can adopt it as they wish. For me personally, this realization has been tremendously liberating.
bluebell Posted January 18, 2016 Posted January 18, 2016 7 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I appreciate your question, Bluebell! I am not asking you to follow my teachings. I have no testimony to bear in this regard. To be clear, I am not saying the Fall never happened. All I am saying is that I have come to the conclusion that the actuality of the Fall is in no way a requirement for the actuality of the Atonement. This is a theological argument that was made up thousands of years after the events described in Genesis 1-3. Just as it was a theological argument that turned the snake in Genesis into the devil. I have no interest in persuading others to agree with me. I am just sharing where I am at, and how I got here. If it is helpful, people can adopt it as they wish. For me personally, this realization has been tremendously liberating. Fair enough. I'm just asking if it was the Spirit that got you where you are, and that gave you the knowledge about the fall that you have.
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