RevTestament Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 3 hours ago, longview said: Carefully read Alma 7:10 " - - - conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost - - - " it was the HG that conveyed the DNA information from Heavenly Father. If HF had physical sexual relations, why would the HG be involved? This scripture shows HF's behavior was above reproach. It would be a "real can of worms" if the Church had to explain why HF would have a physical relationship with a mortal person. The "Law of Justice" would really get its dander up! Nothing magical about the power of the HG. I agree with you at the time Gabriel visited with Mary, she probably had not yet conceived. In Matt 1:18-25, Joseph did notice Mary's pregnant condition and was later told about the special occasion, not to fear of taking her as his wife. It is surprising that Mary did not divulge her special mission to her betrothed. The clincher for me is Nephi's vision in 1 Ne 11:20 "And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms." Mary was still called a virgin after Jesus' birth. Excellent points longview. I am making a note...
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 20 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Bias and prejudice of the listeners cannot account for inserting things contrary to the record. To marry is a covenant and requires mutual consent. The NT record just doesn't really leave any room for such. Miriam is clearly surprised by the announcement of the angel, and the Bible says she had known no man, and didn't know Yosef till after Jesus was born. There really is no room for another "marriage", and there is no secret marrying someone without their knowledge and consent. Further, The Father would not come to the world in its fallen state, since He will never see corruption. The whole idea is really preposterous imho. I know this is a touchy subject, and I honor the desire to follow the prophets. If BY said like the prophets of old that "the Lord has said" I would honestly give it more weight, but it is just not there for me..... Nephi says that God condescended, which in the language of Joseph Smith signified a descent in rank and dignity.
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 9 hours ago, RevTestament said: Bias and prejudice of the listeners cannot account for inserting things contrary to the record. To marry is a covenant and requires mutual consent. The NT record just doesn't really leave any room for such. Miriam is clearly surprised by the announcement of the angel, and the Bible says she had known no man, and didn't know Yosef till after Jesus was born. There really is no room for another "marriage", and there is no secret marrying someone without their knowledge and consent. Further, The Father would not come to the world in its fallen state, since He will never see corruption. The whole idea is really preposterous imho. I know this is a touchy subject, and I honor the desire to follow the prophets. If BY said like the prophets of old that "the Lord has said" I would honestly give it more weight, but it is just not there for me..... 1. The Father didn't come to earth - Mary was carried away. 2. Mary had known no man at the announcement of the angel. She didn't know Joseph till after Jesus was born. Between the time of the announcement and conception she was taken to the presence of the Father. 3. You reject BY teaching on the subject. He was God's prophet. By what authority is your interpretation more inspired? 4. The Father didn't marry Mary without her knowledge or consent. She gave both I am sure.
JLHPROF Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 13 hours ago, longview said: The clincher for me is Nephi's vision in 1 Ne 11:20 "And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms." Mary was still called a virgin after Jesus' birth. No, Nephi called her "The Virgin", as in, the person identified as a virgin prior to conception.
RevTestament Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 11 hours ago, halconero said: Nephi says that God condescended, which in the language of Joseph Smith signified a descent in rank and dignity. To me it signifies Jesus gave up His immortal state to be mortal again, and suffer the rigor of mortality for our sakes.
RevTestament Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: 1. The Father didn't come to earth - Mary was carried away. 2. Mary had known no man at the announcement of the angel. She didn't know Joseph till after Jesus was born. Between the time of the announcement and conception she was taken to the presence of the Father. 3. You reject BY teaching on the subject. He was God's prophet. By what authority is your interpretation more inspired? 4. The Father didn't marry Mary without her knowledge or consent. She gave both I am sure. I don't really care to debate it with you JLHPROF. I do respect your views, and generally your method of interpretation. I think the difference between me and you here is that in my view BY's teaching contradicts scripture. In my view you struggle to overcome this and try to make sense of both. Let me say that at one time I basically did not accept the "Adam-God" doctrine, but I did not reject BY as a prophet, but just decided that I would continue learning, and let BY defend himself with the Lord, if he was wrong. I now believe that this doctrine wasn't really revealed to BY, but to Joseph Smith, and BY was simpy teaching his understanding of it from Joseph Smith. Nevertheless, the Lord has shown me a central truth in this teaching, and I now accept it, except I would be clear that Adam is not literally the Eternal Father, but in his priesthood authority He does represent the First, and the Father of all. I don't see this type of interpretive possibility with the teaching that the Father married Miriam. It is unscriptural and contrary to the law, and I will not support it, absent a clear revelation that the Lord said so. I don't believe Joseph Smith taught any such thing, which leaves BY entirely out on his own with introducing it. I will accept whatever risk I encounter with the Lord if I am wrong. I rather doubt Heavenly Father even has DNA. Even so, this is my choice and I do not seek to impose it upon you nor anyone else. Further, I have not ever read it as an accepted doctrine of the Church - not that that is entirely dispositive. Just because a president has taught something doesn't mean I accept it personally. When it seems to conflict with scriptures as in this case, I pray about it because men are fallible, and I believe I can receive the affirmation of the Holy Spirit in all things.
longview Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: No, Nephi called her "The Virgin", as in, the person identified as a virgin prior to conception. That might be a valid possibility. What are your thoughts on the meaning of the phrase "conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost" ? Do you think it is the HG's job to assist with conception every time a couple makes a sexual congress? Did Heavenly Father need the help of the HG?
JLHPROF Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 7 hours ago, longview said: That might be a valid possibility. What are your thoughts on the meaning of the phrase "conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost" ? Do you think it is the HG's job to assist with conception every time a couple makes a sexual congress? Did Heavenly Father need the help of the HG? D&C 130: 22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge - Joseph Smith The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. - Joseph Smith Given these very clear teachings as to the nature and mission of the Holy Ghost, I don't see how we can think he caused Christ's physical conception in some way. Mosiah says "he was conceived by the power of God;". Nephi says she was "carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time" but doesn't specify to where. Matthew says conceived by the Holy Ghost. Luke says the Holy Ghost will come upon her and she will be overshadowed by "the most high" - who is the Most High, and what does overshadowed reference in this context? That is all the scripture says on the subject. Given what we know of the Holy Ghost I am thinking Holy Ghost should be Holy Spirit (as Nephi says). IE, she was transfigured/purified by the Holy Spirit, carried away, and entered the presence of the most high.
Tacenda Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 22 hours ago, JLHPROF said: 1. The Father didn't come to earth - Mary was carried away. 2. Mary had known no man at the announcement of the angel. She didn't know Joseph till after Jesus was born. Between the time of the announcement and conception she was taken to the presence of the Father. 3. You reject BY teaching on the subject. He was God's prophet. By what authority is your interpretation more inspired? 4. The Father didn't marry Mary without her knowledge or consent. She gave both I am sure. If HF had physical sex then the HG had nothing to do with it. This teaching is used to propagate the need for polygamy or even worse cause incest in polygamist families. Thoughts turn to actions...JS & BY did a disservice to so many women and children by preaching these things. Who knows, what if the whole thing was made up to keep Mary from death? But Jesus was still a chosen vassal for God's teachings. 2
JLHPROF Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Tacenda said: If HF had physical sex then the HG had nothing to do with it. Scripture says she was carried away in the spirit. Quote This teaching is used to propagate the need for polygamy or even worse cause incest in polygamist families. Thoughts turn to actions...JS & BY did a disservice to so many women and children by preaching these things. Nonsense. Some men may corrupt a correct principle for wicked purposes. It doesn't lay the blame at the feet of those who lived and preached correct principle. Edited January 25, 2016 by JLHPROF 1
longview Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 12 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Given these very clear teachings as to the nature and mission of the Holy Ghost, I don't see how we can think he caused Christ's physical conception in some way. A very strange interpretation of scripture. The HG has many powers and is an actual distinct person in the Godhead. 12 hours ago, JLHPROF said: That is all the scripture says on the subject. Given what we know of the Holy Ghost I am thinking Holy Ghost should be Holy Spirit (as Nephi says). IE, she was transfigured/purified by the Holy Spirit, carried away, and entered the presence of the most high. I have more scriptures to share with you: Matthew 1:20 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. ( Luke 1:35 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. The HG is a member of the Godhead, therefore has the authority of the Godhead (i.e. at the direction of God the Father). Isaiah 7:14 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isaiah was refuting the wicked king by saying that there will be a sign given. This sign is miraculous. It is NOT about some humdrum event about a young woman being deflowered. It is a sign showing an ACTUAL miracle: A VIRGIN BIRTH. Alma 7:10 10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God. It was the HG that did the overshadowing and it was the HG that provided the conception (without carnal means). Heavenly Father is indisputably the biological father of His Only Begotten in the Flesh. 1
Recommended Posts