Chronology of the 4 gospels

[Rain]

Is there a better chronology of the 4 gospels than the bible dictionary?  I know the records differ in order a bit so it isn't all going to match up straight across.  The bible dictionary seems to follow the order of Luke, but then will suddenly put later chapters in.  I can't tell if it makes sense to do that or not.  So I'm just wondering if there is a chronology that is considered more correct?

[Nevo]

Critical scholars generally consider the whole project of attempting to create a gospel harmony to be misguided, and I tend to agree. As a rule of thumb, though, I would follow the order in Mark—since Matthew and Luke are largely dependent on Mark for their accounts of Jesus' actions. A small number of scholars favor John's chronology (e.g., Paula Fredriksen), but I'm not convinced that Jesus made multiple trips to Jerusalem or that his temple action took place at the outset of his public ministry (and I'm even more skeptical of the theory that he cleansed the temple twice—once at the beginning and once at the end of his ministry).

 

[Rain]

I had never caught the cleansing of the temple twice till about a week ago.  Interesting that you brought it up.  

It would probably be good to explain what I am doing here.  Endomondo is an exercise app that keeps track of your workouts. There are a bunch of challenges that people make on it.  100 miles walked this month, most calories burned etc.  I'm trying to get in shape.  I am also trying to get to know the Savior better.  So I thought, "Why not create a challenge based on where Jesus walked and read what happened along the way?"   Obviously there is no way to get it accurate especially since he definitely walked more than what we know and archaeology doesn't have things exact along with the gospels not being exact either, but I thought the symbolism of what we know as I walked and read was good enough for me.  If it were just me doing this I would just use the harmony from the back of our bibles.  However, since it will be a public challenge I wanted to see if there was anything else.  I did find one with possible "maps", but it leaves a lot of the reading out of it so I started to combine the two, leaving out the LDS scriptures for the challenge, but putting them in my notes.  I'm just kind of stuck now in the Luke 5 area and not sure what to do next with it so I wondered if there was anything that would work better.  

Edited January 15, 2016 by Rain

[halconero]

Mark is the most accurate chronology as far as originality goes. It's the oldest chronology we have.

Our best hypothesis...and the one for which there is a ton of evidence, is that Matthew and Luke used Mark as their basis for the narrative and chronology of Jesus' life, and then synthesized it with Sayings-Gospel (A Gospel which consists of no narrative or actions of Jesus, but rather a collection of his sayings and teachings) to provide more of the doctrinal weight to their audiences, tweaking it for them as necessary. I say this without criticism or disbelief, I'm a fan of the method, and you see the same thing occurring in Mormon's redaction and editing from the Words of Mormon until Ether. 

The Sayings-Gospel is usually referred to as the Gospel of Q, from the German Quelle, meaning source. Without it you'll notice that Mark is a little sparse on doctrinal explanations or elaborations. We know such a document existed as the sayings of Jesus are almost word-for-word perfect (Greek has many times the number of ways of phrasing things grammatically than English does, yet the same word order, conjugations, and phrasings are used), and usually in the same order, (though inserted in different areas of Mark's narrative, even if they come one after another) with a minimum of exceptions.

So that's my long way of saying "follow Mark," if you want a basic understanding of Jesus went here, then here, then here, then there, did this, and performed that, and then was killed and resurrected.

[Rain]

Interesting.  Thanks.  Where does John fit in?

[volgadon]

I can see multiple Jerusalem trips more than two cleansings and such.

[Nevo]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I'm trying to get in shape.  I am also trying to get to know the Savior better.  So I thought, "Why not create a challenge based on where Jesus walked and read what happened along the way?"   Obviously there is no way to get it accurate especially since he definitely walked more than what we know and archaeology doesn't have things exact along with the gospels not being exact either, but I thought the symbolism of what we know as I walked and read was good enough for me.

That sounds like an interesting project! I have Kurt Aland's synopsis of the gospels, which I think is quite good. There's an online version that uses the NET bible translation here: https://bible.org/sites/bible.org/files/ntsynopsis_download_ebook.pdf (see pages 12-20). I like Aland's arrangement, but it unfortunately lacks the geographic markers that you get with the Church's version. I guess you probably need those if you're trying to measure distances and such. I see there are a few websites out there that try to recreate where Jesus walked using Google maps (http://jesustrail.com/route-maps/nazareth-to-capernaum), but maybe you've already seen those.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Nevo

[Rain]

Thank you!  I like that best of all I have seen before and it is easier to read and collect things from it than others.  Putting in the places is not a big deal since that can easily be found.  

I have seen the Jesus trail one as well, but it didn't really do for me what I wanted from it.

[halconero]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Interesting.  Thanks.  Where does John fit in?

It's complicated. John displays a Christology (describing Christ's nature) much more developed than any other Gospel, and contains different stories than any of the three Synoptics.

 

Of course, from the perspective of the faithful, it might date to the same timeframe as the others, but have revealed more through the Spirit. Though I subscribe to a later date, as I feel the development of doctrine surrounding Christ's nature and mission was a much later development among the apostle's of Christ's time, just like we see increasing complexity in Joseph's revelations.

[Antoni]

My tutor at Bible college used to say he liked to think of John as the first gospel written. Evidence points to probably Mark being first. I find the whole source theory fascinating, haven't spent much time in it recently. As am looking into source theory for Pentateuch at moment.

The Harmony of the Gospels in the Bible Dictionary is a good overview of similarities and differences between each gospel. Craig Blomberg's "Jesus and the Gospels" is a good undergraduate level textbook on them. (bear in mind his theological bias)

 

[cinepro]

While we're on the subject, how do we explain the narratives that involve events for which there isn't a good way for the narrator to know about?  For example, Matthew records this about the wise men:

 

 11 ¶And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

 12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

Matthew 2

So, how did Matthew know that the wise men were warned of God in a dream and went home a different way?  Did they write Mary a letter and explain it, and then Mary told Matthew?  There's no rational way for this bit of info to be conveyed to Matthew.  Unless we assume that angels visited the writers of the Gospels and filled in the blanks, there are parts that are most likely the creation of the author.

 

[Rain]

OK, this is so much more complicated than I thought it would be!  I'm not in the process of using the pdf here as well as a couple of others.  When you are doing them by place it is a little different than when you are doing them by even and story.  I am learning so much and so I am ok with that.  I'm just wanting to get this underway because I have a deadline for myself and I really need to start walking for it!  Hopefully I will have it done tomorrow.

Anyway, I am stuck again.  I've googled it and am finding anywhere from 1-4 times, though most lean 2 or 3.  How many times do you think Jesus was anointed?  Before I started this I hadn't realized that there could be more than one time. Now, I'm kind of leaning 3 right now.  One early on in Galilee, One Mark/Matt. and one John.  I really don't know enough about this though to have a real good opinion.   

Is there anything outside of the bible that clarifies this more?  In your studies do you lean a particular way?

 

 

[Rain]

I finished!  I'm going to post the link, but please don't look to closely at it.  I'm sure I have made mistakes there - some because I didn't organize it well enough and other times for a lack of knowledge.  It was SO much harder than I thought, but it was well worth the time.  

I ended up looking a number of harmonies to get where I got and even changing some things that didn't make sense to me (one harmony put one short story of Jesus in Jerusalem in the middle of travels around the Sea of Galilee. It was chronologically there in one of the books so it seems the creator of the harmony just tagged it on rather than putting it in the story later when he was at least near Jerusalem.   

All of the harmonies did it by story, not place.  I figured that would work, but as I  looked at them they would end one set of scriptures with a verse that said he then went somewhere.  So the listing might be something like "Story 1 Matt. 7:4-9 and Story 2 Matt. 7:10-20", but I needed to change it to:  "Story 1 Matt. 7:4-8 and Story 2 Matt. 7:9-20"  because verse 9 mentioned the new place.

I left out Egypt because I didn't want to add another 700+ miles to it!

I learned quite a bit doing it and am sure I will learn more as I do the challenge.  I had always assumed he spent more time in Nazareth.  I had no idea how much time he spent around the Sea of Galilee.  

I sometimes hear grumblings about the old boys club idea around the apostles and first presidency.  Now I see there were closer connection with the original 12 and Jesus than I realized before.  

The timing of the annointing(s) with other things was interesting.  Can't wait to read them as I walk to see what more I get out of that.  

I'm thinking that "certain village" means Bethany after doing this.

Some of the things I just made up.  When it was a certain city in Samaria I just chose one there.  When he visited "several towns" (or was it cities?) then I just threw in a number that would encompass several.  There is just no way to know.  I admit I chose a small number.    

I found putting the 4 accounts together is kind of like reading the Book of Mormon quickly.  There are things I noticed that I never did before.  

Endomondo is a free app.  You can pay a subscription for an enhanced version, but I've found the free version to be just fine.  You can find my challenge here:  https://www.endomondo.com/challenges/26773038 

 

Thanks again for all your help!

 

 

Edited January 21, 2016 by Rain

[Robert F. Smith]

On 1/15/2016 at 7:29 PM, halconero said:

Mark is the most accurate chronology as far as originality goes. It's the oldest chronology we have.

......................................................

So that's my long way of saying "follow Mark," if you want a basic understanding of Jesus went here, then here, then here, then there, did this, and performed that, and then was killed and resurrected.

The strongest influence on the sequence of events in Mark is orality and rhetoric in a particular socio-cultural context.  Thus, aside from the obvious fact that Mark has a beginning, middle, and an end, one must study its composition history.  Mark was most likely not composed by a single person in a rigid sequence corresponding to Jesus' actual life, but rather it was put together over several decades from scattered oral accounts of his life.  These stories changed over time according to changing audiences (communities).  By studying its language, its episodic nature, and its overall story pattern, it emerges that the final form of Mark was structured for oral performance.

Antoinette Clark Wire, The Case for Mark Composed in Performance (Eugene: Cascade, 2011).  Whitney Shiner, Proclaiming the Gospel: First-Century Performance of Mark (Trinity Press Int’l, 2003).

 

[Robert F. Smith]

On 1/15/2016 at 4:02 AM, Antoni said:

My tutor at Bible college used to say he liked to think of John as the first gospel written. Evidence points to probably Mark being first. I find the whole source theory fascinating, haven't spent much time in it recently. As am looking into source theory for Pentateuch at moment.

The Harmony of the Gospels in the Bible Dictionary is a good overview of similarities and differences between each gospel. Craig Blomberg's "Jesus and the Gospels" is a good undergraduate level textbook on them. (bear in mind his theological bias)

William F. Albright and James Charlesworth each separately declared that John was the earliest Gospel, primarily due to the unique language it has in common with the Qumran community.

[Antoni]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

William F. Albright and James Charlesworth each separately declared that John was the earliest Gospel, primarily due to the unique language it has in common with the Qumran community.

Fascinating, will dig into their research/views more in near future.

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

William F. Albright and James Charlesworth each separately declared that John was the earliest Gospel, primarily due to the unique language it has in common with the Qumran community.

Matthew was the earliest gospel, and according to early accounts was originally written in some form of Hebrew/Aramaic. As the church continued to spread into the Greek domains of the Roman Empire the other gospels were added. John is unique which is exactly why it was one of the last.

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The strongest influence on the sequence of events in Mark is orality and rhetoric in a particular socio-cultural context.  Thus, aside from the obvious fact that Mark has a beginning, middle, and an end, one must study its composition history.  Mark was most likely not composed by a single person in a rigid sequence corresponding to Jesus' actual life, but rather it was put together over several decades from scattered oral accounts of his life.  These stories changed over time according to changing audiences (communities).  By studying its language, its episodic nature, and its overall story pattern, it emerges that the final form of Mark was structured for oral performance.

Antoinette Clark Wire, The Case for Mark Composed in Performance (Eugene: Cascade, 2011).  Whitney Shiner, Proclaiming the Gospel: First-Century Performance of Mark (Trinity Press Int’l, 2003).

I happen to believe early accounts attributing the gospel of Mark to he and Peter. I believe he used the orations of Peter to draft the account which is why it seems like an oratory. Does that make it less inspired or something? Because it is not a piecemeal document strung together from a bunch of different oral accounts? If anything Luke is the gospel strung together from scattered oratories concerning Jesus heard by Luke from various apostles.

[rodheadlee]

On 1/15/2016 at 10:31 AM, cinepro said:

While we're on the subject, how do we explain the narratives that involve events for which there isn't a good way for the narrator to know about?  For example, Matthew records this about the wise men:

 

 

 

So, how did Matthew know that the wise men were warned of God in a dream and went home a different way?  Did they write Mary a letter and explain it, and then Mary told Matthew?  There's no rational way for this bit of info to be conveyed to Matthew.  Unless we assume that angels visited the writers of the Gospels and filled in the blanks, there are parts that are most likely the creation of the author.

 

Don't you believe in personal revelation?

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Don't you believe in personal revelation?

I believe it's possible, but unless someone actually claims it, I am reluctant to assume when there are other explanations as well.

 

Edited January 23, 2016 by cinepro

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

I believe it's possible, but unless someone actually claims it, I am reluctant to assume when there are other explanations as well.

 

I get your point but different people were instructed not to write certain things or write just a part of them. Ultimately it is the Holy Spirit who will reveal the truth of something to you.

[cinepro]

21 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I get your point but different people were instructed not to write certain things or write just a part of them. Ultimately it is the Holy Spirit who will reveal the truth of something to you.

I don't know any New Testament scholars, including LDS ones, who suggest that the narratives in the gospels are all a result of personal revelation to the authors.  That's an interesting theory, but I can't find much support for it anywhere (including the Holy Spirit revealing it to me, or anyone claiming that the Holy Spirit has revealed it to them, other than evangelical inerrists).

Edited January 24, 2016 by cinepro