rongo Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 The tendency for secularists, while mocking traditional religious belief, to simply exchange traditional religion for other "trendier" superstitions and primitive folk beliefs has been something I have noticed, but hadn't articulated in my mind as well as David French does here: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/429585/elves-trolls-and-indigo-child-when-religion-declines-does-superstition-rise What do you think?
thesometimesaint Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 NO! Secularism is the philosophy that the government doesn't have a say in your religion.
rongo Posted January 12, 2016 Author Posted January 12, 2016 I don't think the government should have a say in my religion, but I'm not a secularist. There's more to it than simple libertarianism.
Maidservant Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 I do think it is human nature to have a medium for meaning in their life, a paradigm/language for it. So this need gives rise to 100 percent of what belief systems we see on earth whether we call it religion or reason or something else. 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 2 minutes ago, rongo said: I don't think the government should have a say in my religion, but I'm not a secularist. There's more to it than simple libertarianism. I prefer the dictionary. sec·u·lar·ism (sĕk′yə-lə-rĭz′əm) noun 1. Religious skepticism or indifference. 2. The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education.
rongo Posted January 12, 2016 Author Posted January 12, 2016 So, why don't you go with the first definition listed in the entry you gave? 2
thesometimesaint Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 Just now, rongo said: So, why don't you go with the first definition listed in the entry you gave? Because the second is more applicable. The government should be indifferent to your religion. IOW Believe whatever you want, but don't try to use the force of government to prescribe beliefs. We've gone down that street before, and it doesn't turn out well.
Gray Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) I don't know that superstition is rising. It's an irrational impulse that seems to have been with us always, though. It's possible to be spiritually-minded without being superstitious, but superstition is built in to all the great religious traditions. IMO it's a useless free rider, not necessary to the practice of healthy spirituality. And of course you can reject spirituality entirely and still be very superstitious Edited January 12, 2016 by Gray 1
The Nehor Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 Those denying the existence of the fae may be fae themselves. 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 The Enlightenment, which we are still a part of, has produced great changes in our notions of superstition. Unfortunately I see a trend to go backwards to more superstition. But, that is probably a discussion of another thread.
rongo Posted January 12, 2016 Author Posted January 12, 2016 No, I think it's right in line with this thread. I have noticed an increase in superstition and para-religion, even among secularists, as the article I linked to pointed out. It's one of the interesting phenomena of our time --- a dichotomy like the increasing promiscuity of youth, coupled with an increasing prudishness. Youth generally have less and less qualms about sexting, for instance, but the thought of showering in PE seems bizarre and more than weird to them . . . 1
Gray Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 5 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: The Enlightenment, which we are still a part of, has produced great changes in our notions of superstition. Unfortunately I see a trend to go backwards to more superstition. But, that is probably a discussion of another thread. Just curious, what do you think are the new superstitions? I kind of consider many natural remedies in that realm. Maybe they're not technically superstitions, but they operate in the same headspace.
thesometimesaint Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 7 minutes ago, Gray said: Just curious, what do you think are the new superstitions? I kind of consider many natural remedies in that realm. Maybe they're not technically superstitions, but they operate in the same headspace. This anti-science trend is troubling. Natural remedies COULD be considered superstitions. Depends. if there are good double blind studies to back them up. However my point was more along the lines that if you have to invoke any God or Godlike force to make science works it isn't science.
mfbukowski Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 3 hours ago, rongo said: The tendency for secularists, while mocking traditional religious belief, to simply exchange traditional religion for other "trendier" superstitions and primitive folk beliefs has been something I have noticed, but hadn't articulated in my mind as well as David French does here: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/429585/elves-trolls-and-indigo-child-when-religion-declines-does-superstition-rise What do you think? Well I have been saying this for years in different terminology. Absolutely yes. We all need a belief system which gives us a sense of purpose and creates meaning in our lives. I have personally had several such secular belief systems in my life, before I found the church, one of which was Marxism. I would not call them "superstitions" but "alternate religions". There are those into social change, saving the whales, etc, and on it goes. But none of these give as full an explanation as our church does. This all represents what it is to be a human being, and is as much an inherent part of us as our bodies. We have a need to believe in something bigger than ourselves, that life has a purpose, even if it is to create such a purpose. We have a few here who believe in scientism, which I see as another type of alternate religion. Scientism believes in the eternal progression of mankind's collective knowledge to build a utopia, not unlike our view of the millenium. Every movie about the future contains the tensions between good and evil in this utopia. Standard stuff. 1
The Nehor Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 52 minutes ago, Gray said: Just curious, what do you think are the new superstitions? I kind of consider many natural remedies in that realm. Maybe they're not technically superstitions, but they operate in the same headspace. We let quacks become "doctors". Chiropractors. 2
Gray Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 8 minutes ago, The Nehor said: We let quacks become "doctors". Chiropractors. Good example
mfbukowski Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: The Enlightenment, which we are still a part of, has produced great changes in our notions of superstition. Unfortunately I see a trend to go backwards to more superstition. But, that is probably a discussion of another thread. Actually we are now post Post Modern but who's counting. What the article is saying I think is that we are entering an age of "spirituality", but unlike what we are used to. We are essentially giving up and rationalism and have nothing to replace it. So back we go to fairies.
thesometimesaint Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Actually we are now post Post Modern but who's counting. What the article is saying I think is that we are entering an age of "spirituality", but unlike what we are used to. We are essentially giving up and rationalism and have nothing to replace it. So back we go to fairies. Post Modern never made much sense to me. Seems too close to willful forgetting.
mfbukowski Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 56 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: This anti-science trend is troubling. Natural remedies COULD be considered superstitions. Depends. if there are good double blind studies to back them up. However my point was more along the lines that if you have to invoke any God or Godlike force to make science works it isn't science. I think the point is that your outlook is now seen as irrelevant to people's lives, for better or worse. They have lost the "faith" in science because it doesn't answer their deepest needs. If they understood the separation between science and religion there would be no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Seeing science and spirituality as separate conversations is essential. I know I preach against the "correpondence" theory too much around here, but that is the problem here. If these folks kept their spirituality in one pocket and science in the other there would be no problem
thesometimesaint Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 I admit to being a little weird, well maybe a lot weird. But I've never had "faith" in science. I want my science to answer how God did it, and my religion to answer why he did it.
mfbukowski Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Those denying the existence of the fae may be fae themselves. The problem here is that you clearly have faephobia. You faephobic!! Set free your deep fae self and be liberated! Edited January 12, 2016 by mfbukowski
The Nehor Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: The problem here is that you clearly have faephobia. You faephobic!! Set free your deep fae self and be liberated! Exactly the kind of thing changeling scum would say to avoid being detected. 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 7 hours ago, rongo said: It's one of the interesting phenomena of our time --- a dichotomy like the increasing promiscuity of youth, coupled with an increasing prudishness. Youth generally have less and less qualms about sexting, for instance, but the thought of showering in PE seems bizarre and more than weird to them . . . Yes, I've noticed this exact dichotomy (and others like it) too. They certainly seem linked.
halconero Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) Superstitions? No. Rituals, worldviews/cosmologies, creedal boundary setting, formulation of "the other," and the establishment of associated ethics? Yes, and to be honest I find those much more indicative of religion than any notion of the supernatural or deity. "Secular" religions include fandoms (especially in athletics), civic nationhood, or even animal rights groups. Perhaps the most extreme/obvious form of secular religion, though certainly not the most common, is the Cult of Reason (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Reason) established in Revolutionary France for a time. Here's some good reading: Civic Religion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_religion Functional Religion: http://atheism.about.com/od/religiondefinition/a/types.htm Fandom as religion: http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/press-releases/2015/july/finding-faith-fandom-and-religion Animal Rights activism as religion (I actually find this the best article of all of these, and a must-read about functional religion even ignoring the animal-rights part. Just give the abstract a read): http://fewd.univie.ac.at/fileadmin/user_upload/inst_ethik_wiss_dialog/Jamison__W._2000._Every_sparrow_that_falls._Understanding_animal_rights_activism_as_functional_religion.pdf Edited January 13, 2016 by halconero 3
mfbukowski Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 7 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: I admit to being a little weird, well maybe a lot weird. But I've never had "faith" in science. I want my science to answer how God did it, and my religion to answer why he did it. So how does science say that consciousness organizes matter? Oh I know- "we will figure it out some day". I call that "faith in the eternal progression of human knowledge". Sounds like religion to me. Anything you don't doubt, you have "faith" in.
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