Are There Valid Reasons to Leave the Church?

[Kevin Christensen]

Many years ago, I started studying the reasons that Biblical people gave for rejecting Biblical prophets, and came up with at least 70 distinct arguments.  Over time, I realized that they boiled down to people saying, "It's not what I want, not my ideal, not what I desire," or "It's not what I think, not orthodox, not the fashionable intellectual tradition."  Simply, "Not what I want, and/or not what I think."

I studied passages that described what people should do to see the truth.  They all involve actively putting one's desires and preconceptions at risk in order to find what is Real. This turns out to be exactly what the sacrifice of a broken heart and a contrite spirit involves, a willingness to place your desires and preconceptions on an altar in order to discover what is Real.

Asking, "Is Mormonism what I want it to be in all respects and are Mormons what I want them to be in all respects?" is very different than asking "Is the restoration Real?"  Asking, "Is Mormonism what I think is should be and do Mormons think what I think they should think? is very different than asking "Is the restoration Real?" 

It may be understandable why a person might reject Mormonism based on how some aspect does not meet their subjective desire or intellectual construct.

But asking what is Real is a very different question, calls for different kinds of investigations and sees different information as decisive. 

Personally, I see the Restoration as Real, and the imperfections and frustrations of Mormons past and present as irrelevant to that question. 

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[salgare]

28 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I am simply not persuaded that God Restored His Church on the earth, only to tell some people to join it and then leave it later.  I do not think such an idea is supportable in scripture.  One may as well say "God told me to stop having faith in Jesus Christ, to stop reading the scriptures, and stop repenting of my sins."  Such things are simply not compatible with the LDS paradigm, and neither is leaving the Church (the "Body of Christ").

In one of Hyrum Andrus's three day firesides in Snowflake Az. to which I have posted about here in the past, he goes into some detail on a few scriptures which foretold of a fall of the church.  I could not do it any justice here but will present here a couple of scriptures based on statements containing "restored again"

2 Nephi 25:11

And now this I speak because of the spirit which is in me. And notwithstanding they have been carried away they shall return again, and possess the land of Jerusalem; wherefore, they shall be restored again to the land of their inheritance. 

D&C 124:28

For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood. 

 

Edited January 6, 2016 by salgare

[CA Steve]

27 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think this thread will devolve into a battle over semantics.  From a doctrinal/spiritual point of view, from an eschatological point of view, within the LDS paradigm (based on the assumption that Joseph Smith really did see God the Father and Jesus Christ, really did receive angelic ministrations, really was led by an angel to the Gold Plates, really did translate them by the gift and power of God, really did receive priesthood authority from John the Baptist and Peter, James and John, really was commanded to organize the Lord's Church, which Church continues to this day and continues to house the priesthood and the revelatory and other gifts given through Joseph Smith, etc.), no, there are no valid reasons for voluntarily leaving the LDS Church.  I am simply not persuaded that God Restored His Church on the earth, only to tell some people to join it and then leave it later.  I do not think such an idea is supportable in scripture.  One may as well say "God told me to stop having faith in Jesus Christ, to stop reading the scriptures, and stop repenting of my sins."  Such things are simply not compatible with the LDS paradigm, and neither is leaving the Church (the "Body of Christ").

From other points of view, however, there are many and varied reasons to leave the LDS Church.  For example, claiming that the LDS Church has the potential to become "a hindrance to one's spiritual progression" would be an alternative point of view from the one described in the preceding paragraph.  If an individual is operating outside the LDS paradigm (such as those who claim membership for social reasons, or who have never had or have lost their testimony of the Restored Gospel), than pretty much any reason is "valid."  If an individual takes a position that the Church is something other than what it claims to be, then the Church simply becomes a social club, and leaving it is entirely within the discretion of the individual.  

I am not saying that these other points of view are correct.  Rather, I am proposing that Latter-day Saints, and indeed people everywhere, might be better off if we give each other a bit of breathing room.  I think we should remind ourselves often that reasonable minds can in good faith disagree about all sorts of things, including important things.  Our interactions should be based on this premise.  That doesn't mean we surrender our beliefs, or cede the field to ideological opponents.  Rather, I am suggesting that we allow for reasonable, good-faith disagreement about things like leaving the LDS Church.

With that in mind, I will again state that I do not think there is a good-faith position to be taken that there are "valid reasons to leave the LDS Church" when that issue is viewed within the LDS paradigm.  I would say the same thing if someone were to propose that there are "valid reasons" for a faithful, observant, Latter-day Saint to commit adultery or fornication, or to embezzle funds from an employer, or to enter into polygamy, or to violate the Word of Wisdom, and so on.

Thanks,

-Smac

Great post SMAC, especially the last two paragraphs.

 

I believe that you would be hard pressed to find a believer of any church that thinks there are valid reasons to leave his/her church "within the paradigm of their own church."

[Bobbieaware]

1 minute ago, Gray said:

If someone no longer believes in Islam, it might be expected that they might try pork, just to give it a go. It does not follow then that their motivation for leaving was so they could sin (eat pork). 

There are all kinds of reasons people leave their faith traditions. It's too messy to make any generalizations about it. 

I believe there are two general categories that encompass all the reasons why someone would leave the Church:

1) No longer believing the Church is true, for whatever reasons.

2) No longer being willing, for whatever reasons, to live by the principles and commandments of the Church.

I'm ready and willing to stand corrected, so I will be interested to see if some reasons for leaving the Church do not fit into one of the above two general categories.

 

[salgare]

2 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

I believe there are two general categories that encompass all the reasons why someone would leave the Church:

1) No longer believing the Church is true, for whatever reasons.

2) No longer being willing, for whatever reasons, to live by the principles and commandments of the Church.

I'm ready and willing to stand corrected, so I will be interested to see if some reasons for leaving the Church do not fit into one of the above two general categories.

 

I've posted a few times here already addressing both of your items here.

[Mystery Meat]

19 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Thanks for your responses so far.

Can we all agree that it is at least theoretically possible that God might want somebody to leave the LDS Church?

No, but I can understand why another person feels that way.

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

I believe there are two general categories that encompass all the reasons why someone would leave the Church:

1) No longer believing the Church is true, for whatever reasons.

2) No longer being willing, for whatever reasons, to live by the principles and commandments of the Church.

I'm ready and willing to stand corrected, so I will be interested to see if some reasons for leaving the Church do not fit into one of the above two general categories.

 

I think some people leave because going to church makes them unhappy, for whatever reason. They may even still believe, they may not even change their lifestyle. Some leave for family reasons. Some move on to other churches while believing that both are "true". 

 

[Bobbieaware]

58 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Does this reasoning apply to converts from another religion to the LDS church?

If the leaders of the non-LDS church want to excommunicate their former member for believing the Book of Mormon is true, thereby violating the beliefs system of the church, that is their right to do so.

[CA Steve]

8 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

If the leaders of the non-LDS church want to excommunicate their former member for believing the Book of Mormon is true, thereby violating the beliefs system of the church, that is their right to do so.

I didn't ask you about the leaders of other churches, I want to know if the reasons you think people leave the LDS church also apply to people who leave other churches to convert to Mormonism.

[busybee]

40 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think this thread will devolve into a battle over semantics.  From a doctrinal/spiritual point of view, from an eschatological point of view, within the LDS paradigm (based on the assumption that Joseph Smith really did see God the Father and Jesus Christ, really did receive angelic ministrations, really was led by an angel to the Gold Plates, really did translate them by the gift and power of God, really did receive priesthood authority from John the Baptist and Peter, James and John, really was commanded to organize the Lord's Church, which Church continues to this day and continues to house the priesthood and the revelatory and other gifts given through Joseph Smith, etc.), no, there are no valid reasons for voluntarily leaving the LDS Church.  I am simply not persuaded that God Restored His Church on the earth, only to tell some people to join it and then leave it later.  I do not think such an idea is supportable in scripture.  One may as well say "God told me to stop having faith in Jesus Christ, to stop reading the scriptures, and stop repenting of my sins."  Such things are simply not compatible with the LDS paradigm, and neither is leaving the Church (the "Body of Christ").

From other points of view, however, there are many and varied reasons to leave the LDS Church.  For example, claiming that the LDS Church has the potential to become "a hindrance to one's spiritual progression" would be an alternative point of view from the one described in the preceding paragraph.  If an individual is operating outside the LDS paradigm (such as those who claim membership for social reasons, or who have never had or have lost their testimony of the Restored Gospel), than pretty much any reason is "valid."  If an individual takes a position that the Church is something other than what it claims to be, then the Church simply becomes a social club, and leaving it is entirely within the discretion of the individual.  

I am not saying that these other points of view are correct.  Rather, I am proposing that Latter-day Saints, and indeed people everywhere, might be better off if we give each other a bit of breathing room.  I think we should remind ourselves often that reasonable minds can in good faith disagree about all sorts of things, including important things.  Our interactions should be based on this premise.  That doesn't mean we surrender our beliefs, or cede the field to ideological opponents.  Rather, I am suggesting that we allow for reasonable, good-faith disagreement about things like leaving the LDS Church.

With that in mind, I will again state that I do not think there is a good-faith position to be taken that there are "valid reasons to leave the LDS Church" when that issue is viewed within the LDS paradigm.  I would say the same thing if someone were to propose that there are "valid reasons" for a faithful, observant, Latter-day Saint to commit adultery or fornication, or to embezzle funds from an employer, or to enter into polygamy, or to violate the Word of Wisdom, and so on.

Thanks,

-Smac

What he said.

 

Thank you Smac for expressing your thoughts (which mirror mine) so eloquently.

 

Almost every person I have ever met who has left the church, upon doing so, have always placed the blame for them leaving on the church. It would be 'refreshing' to hear someone say they are leaving because they no longer have a testimony, or just don't want to stay. Instead we hear things like the church lied to me, the church hid things from me, another member offended me and the list goes on and on ad nauseum.

From and LDS point of view these are just excuses, hiding the real cause, and not valid reasons at all. Either this is the Lord's church on earth or it's not. I believe it is and cannot imagine their being any valid reason that would make me change my mind. 

[Jeanne]

10 minutes ago, Gray said:

I think some people leave because going to church makes them unhappy, for whatever reason. They may even still believe, they may not even change their lifestyle. Some leave for family reasons. Some move on to other churches while believing that both are "true". 

 

I have some women friends that want to stay away from Church only because they get so depressed.  They find they are happier wives/mothers without feeling like they should be perfect all the time.

[smac97]

30 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Based on the assumption?  I don't like to assume anything and do my best to avoid making them so I wouldn't have joined the Church in the first place much less remain a member if all I had to go on was an assumption.

And besides that, Satan and his ilk know all about Joseph and the Lord's Church and they are not clamoring to get in and live by God's commandments as members of our Lord's Church, so even while knowing all of that they still have valid reasons to not join or stay with it, even though all of their reasons can probably be summarized as them just not wanting to be our Lord's disciples. 

I see your point, but perhaps you are reading a bit much into the word.  A person can "assume" (defined as "adopt" or "take on" or "take upon oneself") the validity of the LDS paradigm and proceed on that basis.  The mechanism for that assumption can be - should be - based on spiritual confirmations following scripture study, pondering, praying, and so on.

Thanks,

-Smac

[consiglieri]

14 minutes ago, Gray said:

I think some people leave because going to church makes them unhappy, for whatever reason. They may even still believe, they may not even change their lifestyle. Some leave for family reasons. Some move on to other churches while believing that both are "true". 

 

This raises a good issue.

A lot of people attend the LDS Church even though it doesn't make them happy.

Some have asked why anybody would attend a church that didn't make them happy.

[Bobbieaware]

21 minutes ago, Gray said:

I think some people leave because going to church makes them unhappy, for whatever reason. They may even still believe, they may not even change their lifestyle. Some leave for family reasons. Some move on to other churches while believing that both are "true". 

 

I believe this thread is about people, like the woman who's the subject of the op, who leave the Church through proactive self-excommunication. There's  a world of difference between merely going inactive and no longer wanting to have your name on the roles of the Church. 

Edited January 6, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I have some women friends that want to stay away from Church only because they get so depressed.  They find they are happier wives/mothers without feeling like they should be perfect all the time.

I think that's true. The experience can be a heavy, dreary, draining weight for some. Or an uplifting, invigorating experience for others. Everyone's experience is a bit different. 

[Bobbieaware]

9 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I didn't ask you about the leaders of other churches, I want to know if the reasons you think people leave the LDS church also apply to people who leave other churches to convert to Mormonism.

I don't see why not. The perception of reality is in the eyes of the beholder. 

[consiglieri]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

 

I am not saying that these other points of view are correct.  Rather, I am proposing that Latter-day Saints, and indeed people everywhere, might be better off if we give each other a bit of breathing room.  I think we should remind ourselves often that reasonable minds can in good faith disagree about all sorts of things, including important things.  Our interactions should be based on this premise.  That doesn't mean we surrender our beliefs, or cede the field to ideological opponents.  Rather, I am suggesting that we allow for reasonable, good-faith disagreement about things like leaving the LDS Church.

 

I agree 100% with this statement, Smac.

It reminds me of something somebody else said back in October of 2013:

Some struggle with unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past. We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of Church history—along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events—there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I have some women friends that want to stay away from Church only because they get so depressed.  They find they are happier wives/mothers without feeling like they should be perfect all the time.

While one of the approaches to this problem could be removing oneself from the environment, a better one imo would be gaining personal control by processing and changing the why of the trigger for depression.  If they simply assume because I get depressed at church, I will stop going to church to solve that issue, then what happens when they get into another situation that triggers the same feelings or other negative ones?  Do they keep in avoidance mode all their lives and thus lose out on many possibly great opportunities?  Wouldn't it be better to change so as to not be so controlled by one's environment and to change sooner rather than later?

Edited January 6, 2016 by Calm

[salgare]

7 minutes ago, busybee said:

From and LDS point of view these are just excuses, hiding the real cause, and not valid reasons at all. Either this is the Lord's church on earth or it's not. I believe it is and cannot imagine their being any valid reason that would make me change my mind. 

Is it possible (and would you want to know) that the Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is corrupt?

Is it possible that even though "The Church" (the corporation) is corrupt that the Restored Gospel is true?

Is it possible for a corrupt tree to produce good fruit, even the mix suggested above?

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Thanks for your responses so far.

Can we all agree that it is at least theoretically possible that God might want somebody to leave the LDS Church?

I agree with that.

However, it's not because i don't believe that the LDS church is God's only true church on the earth (meaning the only church that has the fulness of the gospel).  I agree with that because not all people need the same thing at the same time.  A message that helps one person may harm another, not because of the message but because of the issues of the person receiving it.  Even love (something that we can universally agree on as good) can feel hurtful to someone who has no ability to interpret and receive it because of internal issues caused by past experiences.  And some people have the ability to see around different weaknesses and imperfections in the delivery of a message that other people just don't.

In my opinion, when God does direct someone outside of His church, it's because that is the route they need to take to eventually (however long that might be) be able to accept the Gospel more fully.

 

 

[busybee]

1 minute ago, salgare said:

Is it possible (and would you want to know) that the Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is corrupt?

Is it possible that even though "The Church" (the corporation) is corrupt that the Restored Gospel is true?

Is it possible for a corrupt tree to produce good fruit, even the mix suggested above?

From my point of view.

No,

No, given that it is the Lord's church and contains the fullness of His gospel,

And no. The scriptures say. by their fruits ye shall know them. A corrupt tree cannot produce good fruit.

And if you are going to assert that the church is corrupt and yet produces good fruit, be forewarned, I shall be asking for references.

[Jeanne]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

While one of the approaches to this problem could be removing oneself from the environment, a better one imo would be gaining personal control by processing and changing the why of the trigger for depression.  If they simply assume because I get depressed at church, I will stop going to church to solve that issue, then what happens when they get into another situation that triggers the same feelings or other negative ones?  Do they keep in avoidance mode all their lives and thus lose out on many possibly great opportunities?  Wouldn't it be better to change so as to not be so controlled by one's environment and to change sooner rather than later?

I feel that no matter what..like you say, the "why" matters in areas of real depression.  That should always be dealt with.  But there is a "you are not doing enough" feeling in church that affects just regular happy woman  The article "Mothers Who Know" (or something like that) really tells the story.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Jeanne

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, busybee said:

What he said.

 

Thank you Smac for expressing your thoughts (which mirror mine) so eloquently.

 

Almost every person I have ever met who has left the church, upon doing so, have always placed the blame for them leaving on the church. It would be 'refreshing' to hear someone say they are leaving because they no longer have a testimony, or just don't want to stay. Instead we hear things like the church lied to me, the church hid things from me, another member offended me and the list goes on and on ad nauseum.

From and LDS point of view these are just excuses, hiding the real cause, and not valid reasons at all. Either this is the Lord's church on earth or it's not. I believe it is and cannot imagine their being any valid reason that would make me change my mind. 

I think the appropriate course of action would not be for someone to allocate "blame" one way or another for Person X's decision to leave the Church.  There's just not that much value in such an exercise, and there is substantial risk of alienating or offending Person X should "blame" be placed on him/her.  There is also the risk of people inside the Church glossing over the need for repentance/introspection/change when evaluating their individual behavior.  If we who remain with the Church reflexively blame Person X for leaving the Church, and if fail to reflect and consider ways we can improve, then our rate of improvement will stagnate.

There is no pat answer here.  Some people leave (and some stay) for purely social reasons.  Some disagree with portions of the Church's doctrines, or with its policies and practices.  Some leave due to malaise, or fatigue, or because "being LDS" takes too much time, money and/or effort.  Some leave because they think the Church is in manifest error and not in communion with God.  Some leave because due to an inability or unwillingness to adhere to Church doctrines and practices.  Some leave because they feel they have found something better.  Some leave because of neglect from, or offense given by, other members and/or church leaders.  Some leave after experiencing doubt about fundamental issues like the existence or nature of God, the divine sonship of Jesus Christ, the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith, the provenance of The Book of Mormon, etc.  There are many more potential reasons.  And many of these reasons overlap with each other.

I believe the Church is what it claims to be.  I think active, observant Latter-day Saints are predominantly good and decent, and this goodness and decency is in many ways attributable to living an "LDS lifestyle."  The focus on the family, the Law of Chastity, the Word of Wisdom, emphasis on practical application of Judeo-Christian virtues pertaining to hard work, thrift, honesty, service to others, education, self-reliance, temperance of speech, and so on.  These are all good things.  But sociologically we mess up sometimes.  Sometimes these mistakes, to varying degrees, contribute to disaffection from the Church, whether our own or another's.  

Our job is not, I think, to allocate fault when a person leaves the Church.  Rather, I think we need to focus on improving ourselves, our families, our interactions with others, and to pray for the well-being of those around us, including those who leave.

Thanks,

-Smac

[consiglieri]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

While one of the approaches to this problem could be removing oneself from the environment, a better one imo would be gaining personal control by processing and changing the why of the trigger for depression.  If they simply assume because I get depressed at church, I will stop going to church to solve that issue, then what happens when they get into another situation that triggers the same feelings or other negative ones?  Do they keep in avoidance mode all their lives and thus lose out on many possibly great opportunities?  Wouldn't it be better to change so as to not be so controlled by one's environment and to change sooner rather than later?

I think it would be better just to avoid places that make you unhappy.

 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, salgare said:

For the 2000+ that recently left, what percentage of them do you believe left for the reason you have given?

I propose that we not publicly speculate about such things.  It's not helpful.

Thanks,

-Smac