bluebell Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 39 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Eternal order? And a reason he is the bridegroom and we are the bride. It could be. But I struggle with the idea that sexism is part of the eternal order. Because claiming that men reign for no other reason than that they are male is sexist. If it's true, it's still sexist. The church is the bride. I don't think i've ever seen a scripture teaching that each individual person is a bride, but i'm open for correction on that if you can provide a reference. We are in a covenant relationship with Him for sure, but that seems to be where the analogy ends in terms of usefulness, especially in this day and age where women don't need to be married to gain social status, legitimacy, and financial security from their husbands like they had to back in Jesus' day. In your point though, men are just as much brides as women are. So again we are left with the deficit that doesn't seem to have an answer. Why do men get to rule and women get to be subordinate? Men, being brides themselves in the gospel and therefore on the exact same footing as women in every way, justify no reason to be proxy's of Christ for women. 4
bluebell Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 4 minutes ago, Calm said: And extremely derogatory of men to since it implies they would be unable to find meaningful labour to contribute without being assigned to preside in the home. Especially considering that women are asked to find meaning in their contributions while currently in that exact subordinate position. 2
Calm Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, bluebell said: Especially considering that women are asked to find meaning in their contributions while currently in that exact subordinate position. Well, there did seem to be the assumption in her comment that women can find meaning in their natural ability to nuture, etc. without needing to preside, but men, since they would end up being human drones if the blessing was withdrawn from them and given to women, are incapable of anything independent of presiding, including nurturing. Edited January 1, 2016 by Calm 1
salgare Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) 1/2 of my grand children are beautiful little girls. These issues are basically my driving force of wanting my posterity out. The only "anti-mormon" sentiments I can share with my wife without a huge battle ... "Dear, do you want them to end up in your or a's, or b's .... long list of good sisters we know", situation? My only daughter has a husband that demands a "traditional wife" ... one of my sweet gd's several of us, helpless and broken hearted. The mindless cycle of indoctrination continues unabated. Edited January 1, 2016 by salgare 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 Women can still be exalted just like men.
salgare Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) delete Edited January 1, 2016 by salgare
Calm Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 21 minutes ago, salgare said: The mindless cycle of indoctrination continues unabated. Yes, I can see that bluebell, myself and Bobbieaware are all mindlessly in agreement. 2
salgare Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Calm said: Yes, I can see that bluebell, myself and Bobbieaware are all mindlessly in agreement. Truth is Calm, if you were BIC and started right off in nursery being constantly exposed through your teens then it was mindless .... ok horrible word .. someone please help me with an adjective that reflects things like 1. way before years of accountablity 2. during years of easiest/fastest environmental adaptation 3. unsolicited, given no opportunity of choice by the individual etc. Edited January 1, 2016 by salgare
salgare Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 I'll elaborate on this "condition" of which causes my wife to hang her head. 1. stay at home mom. 2. no education 3. male chauvinist husbands (assholes we jest that I got rectal cancer from karma) 4. lining daughters up for more of the same.
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 Whenever I'm in church or at the temple, the women around me seem more spiritual and pure than the men. Maybe it's just the appearance, but the thought always goes through my mind.
Calm Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) I am BIC and raised in an active family going to Church every week. So I guess the appearance that I actually possessed different thoughts about my faith from my sisters and friends and my family and teachers at church promoted that was a total illusion. ------- I grew up in that stronghold of conservative thought and behaviour, San Francisco, and my experience was that I was provided with more opportunity to grow as an individual and not as someone just there to provide service to another inside the Church than I ever was outside the Church, including being encouraged to speak up, be a leader and other such things. I recognize that this is not every women's childhood or youth experience in the Church, but I see enough variation that I see any oppression as more a result of family and local community influence than any inherent Church doctrinal teaching. The Church can do tons better, but at least in my youth I am grateful they weren't followers of the cultural Californian norm, which was a lot of genuflecting to feminine liberation but not much actual reality of it among youth. Edited January 2, 2016 by Calm 2
salgare Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Whenever I'm in church or at the temple, the women around me seem more spiritual and pure than the men. Maybe it's just the appearance, but the thought always goes through my mind. Yes, I've not been fair by leaving this off my list: 1. stay at home mom. 2. no education 3. male chauvinist husbands (assholes we jest that I got rectal cancer from karma) 4. lining daughters up for more of the same. 5. Good news, more spiritual than ******* (rectal cancer candidate) men. 6. oh and will be exalted ... another bonus right there. Edited January 1, 2016 by salgare
Bobbieaware Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 1 hour ago, bluebell said: I changed my mind. I do think this is a point worth arguing over. Thinking about about it for a while, whether you are right or wrong, it's no justification for the way that Heavenly Father has set things up. In fact if you're right, it makes Heavenly Father look like a misogynist of the worst kind. What you've essentially said is that God put men in charge because the chances for abuse of the system if women were in charge is too great. However, we know right now that the actuality (meaning it has happened and will continue to happen) for abuse of women by people using religious teaching as the primary justification in the current system is HUGE. So huge that women have been abused for probably 90% of recorded history (and that's a low estimate from my perspective having a degree in history). So please don't tell me that 'in in His wisdom' God would never set up a religion where it's easy for men to be the victim of inequality when we know He did set up a system where it's easy for women to be the victim of inequality. When you say that you are saying that God cares more about men than He does about women. If men bore and nurtured the children and only women were ordained to priesthood offices and presided There is no inequality. I already explained it to you: Women have the supreme blessings of bearing, nurturing and deeply connecting with her children. And then to balance things out and make them fair he ordains men to offices in the priesthood and calls upon them to sacrificially preside over their families in love, virtue and holiness. If a man fails in this sacred role and duty, it's his fault and he will be held accountable. 1
Calm Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) The Church has pushed for education for women since its creation. If any families are not listening, is it the Church's fault? My great grandmother on my dad's side got medical training to fulfill a calling in the Church. Education was highly valued on both sides, though much of it had to be selftaught in the poorer families. On my mom's side, all her aunts went to college just as the men in the family. And this was all in Utah, btw, including the plural marriage families. The boys got at most a few more years but most were equal in levels of education which was as much as the families could afford. LDS women have tended to be better educated than the general population in the US and numbers are growing for those completing college and getting advanced degrees as well. Edited January 1, 2016 by Calm 1
Bobbieaware Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 6 minutes ago, salgare said: Yes, I've not been fair by leaving this off my list: 1. stay at home mom. 2. no education 3. male chauvinist husbands (assholes we jest that I got rectal cancer from karma) 4. lining daughters up for more of the same. 5. Good news, more spiritual than ******* (rectal cancer candidate) men. 6. oh and will be exalted ... another bonus right there. This board is becoming more and more sick and twisted. And I hope the moderators find a way to deal with this slide into the sewer before it becomes an online outpost of spiritual darkness and anti-Mormon hatred. 1
salgare Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 Just now, Bobbieaware said: There is no inequality. I already explained it to you: Women have the supreme blessings of bearing, nurturing and deeply connecting with her children. And then to balance things out and make them fair he ordains men to offices in the priesthood and calls upon them to sacrificially preside over their families in love, virtue and holiness. If a man fails in this sacred role and duty, it's his fault and he will be held accountable. True enough, leaving you in this situation: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66700-do-apostates-go-to-spirit-prison/?do=findComment&comment=1209573077 Thank goodness there is an alternative for you and your children upon his failure
salgare Posted January 1, 2016 Posted January 1, 2016 3 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: This board is becoming more and more sick and twisted. And I hope the moderators find a way to deal with this slide into the sewer before it becomes an online outpost of spiritual darkness and anti-Mormon hatred. Bobbieaware, Is the swearing that so offends you ... I was hoping for some chuckles but I will quickly edit it out.
Jeanne Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 15 hours ago, sunstoned said: Yes, I remember before 1990 and many things that were scary and offensive were removed. Much of this was put into place by BY, who collected women like cattle. BY also added the oath against the United States that was taken out in the 1930s. For a scared ordnance, it sure has gone through many changes. Now, at least for the most part it has been revamped to be more politically correct. I have never heard of the oath that was taken out in the 1930s,,,Wow..why am I surprised?
The Nehor Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 4 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: I already explained why. If women were to preside over the family while also bearing and nurturing the children, there would be a great inequality in the marital relationship and men would become little more than emasculated human drones. I would like to think if I were in a relationship with children that I bring a little more to the table then choosing who prays.
The Nehor Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 16 hours ago, sunstoned said: Yes, I remember before 1990 and many things that were scary and offensive were removed. Much of this was put into place by BY, who collected women like cattle. BY also added the oath against the United States that was taken out in the 1930s. For a scared ordnance, it sure has gone through many changes. Now, at least for the most part it has been revamped to be more politically correct. I get the impression that you do not like Brigham and are trying to portray him in an unfavorable light. 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 I know many LDS women who aren't looking forward to exaltation because they claim they don't want to be eternal baby makers and want more.
The Nehor Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 Just now, VideoGameJunkie said: I know many LDS women who aren't looking forward to exaltation because they claim they don't want to be eternal baby makers and want more. They will get everything the Father has. What more do they want? 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: They will get everything the Father has. What more do they want? Equal decision making in creating worlds and ruling as an exalted man. They want to be prayed to also.
bluebell Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: There is no inequality. I already explained it to you. I don't feel like your explanation is adequate or completely dealing with the point of the discussion. Thanks for giving your thoughts though. 1
bluebell Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 3 hours ago, salgare said: 1/2 of my grand children are beautiful little girls. These issues are basically my driving force of wanting my posterity out. The only "anti-mormon" sentiments I can share with my wife without a huge battle ... "Dear, do you want them to end up in your or a's, or b's .... long list of good sisters we know", situation? My only daughter has a husband that demands a "traditional wife" ... one of my sweet gd's several of us, helpless and broken hearted. The mindless cycle of indoctrination continues unabated. The system that I am speaking of is completely supported in the Bible, so unless you are also trying to get your family out of Christianity altogether, your post doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
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