Adam is the Lord over the earth in the temple, is my husband my Lord on earth?

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Now...let's put those good women on the front row!

Oh, yes, because that will change the world.  In fact, we desperately need a women in the White House.....well, for no other reason than her gender.  In fact, get rid of all men and put women in all positions because they somehow, for nothing more than their gender are vastly superior at seeing the needs of humanity

This is the feminism that does no one any favors and just makes reason stop dead and ask how could anyone think like that?  If you are qualified, be there.  If you aren't get out of the way because there are others behind you waiting to play the game.  

Absolutely my least favorite topic because of I find it devoid of rational thought and based solely on "because I am a woman I need to be heard" and not because of the merit of what I have to say people will listen.   

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Oh, yes, because that will change the world.  In fact, we desperately need a women in the White House.....well, for no other reason than her gender.  In fact, get rid of all men and put women in all positions because they somehow, for nothing more than their gender are vastly superior at seeing the needs of humanity

This is the feminism that does no one any favors and just makes reason stop dead and ask how could anyone think like that?  If you are qualified, be there.  If you aren't get out of the way because there are others behind you waiting to play the game.  

Absolutely my least favorite topic because of I find it devoid of rational thought and based solely on "because I am a woman I need to be heard" and not because of the merit of what I have to say people will listen.   

She wasn't saying that.  Very black and white post here Storm.  All or nothing.  Or take that back, who's to say these women in the photo have nothing to say, or couldn't lead or be taken seriously.  

Edited January 4, 2016 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Oh, yes, because that will change the world.  In fact, we desperately need a women in the White House.....well, for no other reason than her gender.  In fact, get rid of all men and put women in all positions because they somehow, for nothing more than their gender are vastly superior at seeing the needs of humanity

This is the feminism that does no one any favors and just makes reason stop dead and ask how could anyone think like that?  If you are qualified, be there.  If you aren't get out of the way because there are others behind you waiting to play the game.  

Absolutely my least favorite topic because of I find it devoid of rational thought and based solely on "because I am a woman I need to be heard" and not because of the merit of what I have to say people will listen.   

The problem is that the percentage of women who are qualified to do almost all jobs is equal to the percentage of men qualified. But women do not serve equally in those jobs. That's a problem worthy of discussion and intervention.  Women do deserve to be heard because we have perspectives that men don't have.

No one is saying that unqualified people should get jobs because of their gender.

No one is saying that only women should be in charge.

Stop throwing out straw men arguments that no one believes in and instead actually engage what is being said. 

[Jeanne]

59 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Oh, yes, because that will change the world.  In fact, we desperately need a women in the White House.....well, for no other reason than her gender.  In fact, get rid of all men and put women in all positions because they somehow, for nothing more than their gender are vastly superior at seeing the needs of humanity

This is the feminism that does no one any favors and just makes reason stop dead and ask how could anyone think like that?  If you are qualified, be there.  If you aren't get out of the way because there are others behind you waiting to play the game.  

Absolutely my least favorite topic because of I find it devoid of rational thought and based solely on "because I am a woman I need to be heard" and not because of the merit of what I have to say people will listen.   

No...not even all that..how about because women have value and are intelligent,  I meant this as a compliment to them.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Jeanne

[Calm]

The Women At Church book by McBaine has a good, simple example of why women's perspectives are needed in providing for the needs of over half the population of the Church (and it would seem church leaders have always agreed as the establishment of the RS demonstrates though not carried through as effectively as it could be as Elder Ballard has pointed out many times).

In one stake, YW leaders wished to put "flushing toilets" on the flyer for the YW stake camp.  This was because the previous year a number of the young women complained because of the difficulty of dealing with menstrual logistics in the more primitive state of their previous camp, outhouses being rather awkward for such purposes.  Given the length of such camps, a good percentage of both youth and leaders will be needing to deal with more complicated hygiene logistics, especially if they are to fully participate in all activities.  YW leaders not only wanted to encourage those who might be reluctant to come, but also to show the YW that they were listening, registered that this problem was important to the girls and then acted upon it.

The Stake President refused to let them have the poster with that notice as in his view it was undignified to mention "flushing toilets" and thus inappropriate for a church poster.  Concern for appearances of the dignity of the Church won out in the Stake President's mind over the dignity of the members he was shepherding.  He refused to listen to the voices of the women he himself had called to stand with him in this effort.  An opportunity was missed to teach that he and other leaders were listening.

-----

I have always thought that if the men who designed the buildings were required to use them as closely to how the women they were designing them for, there would be separate rooms for nursing and changing of diapers.  Besides the health issues, sitting next to a full diaper pail at the latter end of a Sunday trying to nurse is not a pleasant experience especially when one isn't allowed to open windows or doors for airflow.  Trying to keep from heaving for those of us who become highly sensitive to smells when hormones are dancing around and trying to relax to allow the baby to feed can be very difficult.  I would end up covering my head with the blanket trying to block out the smell but that could only work for so long.  

Edited January 4, 2016 by Calm

[VideoGameJunkie]

Do you believe women will have the priesthood power in the next life?

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have always thought that if the men who designed the buildings were required to use them as closely to how the women they were designing them for, there would be separate rooms for nursing and changing of diapers.  Besides the health issues, sitting next to a full diaper pail at the latter end of a Sunday trying to nurse is not a pleasant experience especially when one isn't allowed to open windows or doors for airflow.  Trying to keep from heaving for those of us who become highly sensitive to smells when hormones are dancing around and trying to relax to allow the baby to feed can be very difficult.  I would end up covering my head with the blanket trying to block out the smell but that could only work for so long.  

The nursing room in our chapel (which is just big enough for two recliners and room to open the door) has no heat.  It has vents, and air definitely comes thru them, but for whatever reason, it's not the heated air from the heater.  In the summer is almost too cold for the way most women and babies are dressed, but in the winter, it's horrible.  Women take their coats in just to survive and it's not unusual to be talking to the woman sitting next to you with both of your teeth chattering.  I've mentioned it so hopefully they'll figure something out soon.  

The men who are in charge of the building don't understand what it's like in these rooms because they are never in them.  They aren't trying to make women suffer, they just have no concept of what it's like so it doesn't make their 'important issues' list.

[Calm]

In Canada our building had been built in the Californian style (like an H), good for noise issues and so every classroom had a window or two but in the middle of winter it was freezing.  It didn't help that for the back of the Church on the Primary side the heating vents had been crushed by pouring cement or something.  It was horrible (and kids did not bring coats to class sonce they dumped them for the warmth of the chapel) and I don't have a clue why it went on for decades before corrected when doing a renovation add on.

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

She wasn't saying that.  Very black and white post here Storm.  All or nothing.  Or take that back, who's to say these women in the photo have nothing to say, or couldn't lead or be taken seriously.  

What she said is that the women needed to be sitting on the front row.  How does that change anything?  I don't even sit on the stand does that make me less of a person?  I just don't even like this form of qualifying people.  For as long as I live may I only be found sitting in the congregation and never again on the stand in any capacity.  

Tacenda, you think these are the kind of things we should push for in order to be viewed as having "arrived" or to feel self-worth?  Why?

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

The problem is that the percentage of women who are qualified to do almost all jobs is equal to the percentage of men qualified. But women do not serve equally in those jobs. That's a problem worthy of discussion and intervention.  Women do deserve to be heard because we have perspectives that men don't have.

No one is saying that unqualified people should get jobs because of their gender.

No one is saying that only women should be in charge.

Stop throwing out straw men arguments that no one believes in and instead actually engage what is being said. 

Absolutely not - I reject in total the concept that my gender enables me to have a solely unique viewpoint that the other gender cannot have because of their gender.  

I support anyone that is qualified and has demonstrated merit to be promoted and given jobs.  I completely and totally reject that proportional representation should even be a goal of a civil society.  As soon as it raises its ugly head it becomes a race for mediocrity at best because qualification is not longer based upon merit, but on qualities that have not merit - gender, race, sexual preference, etc.  

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

The nursing room in our chapel (which is just big enough for two recliners and room to open the door) has no heat.  It has vents, and air definitely comes thru them, but for whatever reason, it's not the heated air from the heater.  In the summer is almost too cold for the way most women and babies are dressed, but in the winter, it's horrible.  Women take their coats in just to survive and it's not unusual to be talking to the woman sitting next to you with both of your teeth chattering.  I've mentioned it so hopefully they'll figure something out soon.  

The men who are in charge of the building don't understand what it's like in these rooms because they are never in them.  They aren't trying to make women suffer, they just have no concept of what it's like so it doesn't make their 'important issues' list.

The maintenance group in the church does not have a stellar performance when correcting issues brought to their attention.  They seem to be a wholly independent entity and they act like it.  The situation you bring up is one of a long list of things they....ignore.  I have no explanation why it continues to be so.

 

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

The nursing room in our chapel (which is just big enough for two recliners and room to open the door) has no heat.  It has vents, and air definitely comes thru them, but for whatever reason, it's not the heated air from the heater.  In the summer is almost too cold for the way most women and babies are dressed, but in the winter, it's horrible.  Women take their coats in just to survive and it's not unusual to be talking to the woman sitting next to you with both of your teeth chattering.  I've mentioned it so hopefully they'll figure something out soon.  

The men who are in charge of the building don't understand what it's like in these rooms because they are never in them.  They aren't trying to make women suffer, they just have no concept of what it's like so it doesn't make their 'important issues' list. 

It would be a hoot for them to have to use this room for a meeting sometime..oh..you women just complain too much!Really this is terrible.  If some women are like me, when I get cold, I am cold all day..!  Come to my Walmart..I will get you some wood and you guys make a nice fire in there,,that should get their attention..

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

The problem is that the percentage of women who are qualified to do almost all jobs is equal to the percentage of men qualified. But women do not serve equally in those jobs. That's a problem worthy of discussion and intervention.  Women do deserve to be heard because we have perspectives that men don't have.

No one is saying that unqualified people should get jobs because of their gender.

No one is saying that only women should be in charge.

Stop throwing out straw men arguments that no one believes in and instead actually engage what is being said. 

Do you think that every person that is qualified is promoted?  Regardless of gender?  Does every man that is qualified get promoted?  Why do so many qualified individuals not get promoted?  

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Storm Rider said:

Do you think that every person that is qualified is promoted?  Regardless of gender?  Does every man that is qualified get promoted?  Why do so many qualified individuals not get promoted?  

Because most of the qualified people are women.

[consiglieri]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

 Women do deserve to be heard because we have perspectives that men don't have.

This fact was brought home to me in spades a couple of years ago when I read a woman's account of how she experienced the endowment ceremony.

I had never thought of it in that way.

And the reason I had not is simply because I am not a woman.

[salgare]

Women do have a very hard call when it comes to careers verses motherhood.  In my profession I've worked with three women whom were brilliant programmers.  In all three cases they had stay at home husbands.

I'll set myself up for more hate (its always unwise for a male to comment in a feminist discussion, even if on there side)

A reason that there MIGHT not as many qualify Mormon women as men is the split of time/talents between a career and motherhood simply hurts a woman's time in job and experience related to time.

This statement is based on choices like a stay at home dad, or kids in day-care etc.

Edited January 4, 2016 by salgare

[salgare]

There is only one man whom women might have any need for  ... I always loved these shows as a kid.

[Tacenda]

45 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

What she said is that the women needed to be sitting on the front row.  How does that change anything?  I don't even sit on the stand does that make me less of a person?  I just don't even like this form of qualifying people.  For as long as I live may I only be found sitting in the congregation and never again on the stand in any capacity.  

Tacenda, you think these are the kind of things we should push for in order to be viewed as having "arrived" or to feel self-worth?  Why?

First Bobbieaware and now you, misunderstanding me.  I didn't say something about having arrived or to feel self worth.  The women I see on the stand have plenty of self worth, and they've seen plenty in the church, and have experienced much throughout their lifetimes to merit being a guiding voice in it's workings. Maybe it's not so much that they are in leadership as being an apostle or prophet. But that they deserve to give opinion or guidance in more than what is allowed now.  There is a story about Chieko N. Okazaki where they were left out completely of that opinion/guidance.  I'll c/p the link to the article, to give you a full picture.  

http://rationalfaiths.com/why-arent-the-women-included/

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

First Bobbieaware and now you, misunderstanding me.  I didn't say something about having arrived or to feel self worth.  The women I see on the stand have plenty of self worth, and they've seen plenty in the church, and have experienced much throughout their lifetimes to merit being a guiding voice in it's workings. Maybe it's not so much that they are in leadership as being an apostle or prophet. But that they deserve to give opinion or guidance in more than what is allowed now.  There is a story about Chieko N. Okazaki where they were left out completely of that opinion/guidance.  I'll c/p the link to the article, to give you a full picture.  

http://rationalfaiths.com/why-arent-the-women-included/

Their self worth is very intact.  Their humility surpasses so many,  This is about their worth in the eyes of their brethren.

[VideoGameJunkie]

35 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

This fact was brought home to me in spades a couple of years ago when I read a woman's account of how she experienced the endowment ceremony.

I had never thought of it in that way.

And the reason I had not is simply because I am not a woman.

There's a whole section on a website called feminist mormon housewives where they talk about their trauma experiences from the endowment session as women, but I won't link it because they talk about temple content.

Edited January 4, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

Absolutely not - I reject in total the concept that my gender enables me to have a solely unique viewpoint that the other gender cannot have because of their gender.  

Studies consistently for decades have shown that men and women approach discussions, needs, etc. from a different point of view so your rejection, if I understand it correctly, isn't backed by science.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

Absolutely not - I reject in total the concept that my gender enables me to have a solely unique viewpoint that the other gender cannot have because of their gender.  

I support anyone that is qualified and has demonstrated merit to be promoted and given jobs.  I completely and totally reject that proportional representation should even be a goal of a civil society.  As soon as it raises its ugly head it becomes a race for mediocrity at best because qualification is not longer based upon merit, but on qualities that have not merit - gender, race, sexual preference, etc.  

Well, you're wrong.

There are things about being a woman that you cannot understand because you've never experienced them. Reading about them would definitely help, but not completely.  

I'm sure it's the same for men. 

And because men and woman are pretty equal percentage wise for being qualified for positions and jobs, mediocrity doesn't have to play a part. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

Do you think that every person that is qualified is promoted?  Regardless of gender?  Does every man that is qualified get promoted?  Why do so many qualified individuals not get promoted?  

No, I'm sure there are lots of reasons qualified people don't get promoted. 

Life is definitely not fair.  it's ok to want to change that as much as possible. 😊

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

It would be a hoot for them to have to use this room for a meeting sometime..oh..you women just complain too much!Really this is terrible.  If some women are like me, when I get cold, I am cold all day..!  Come to my Walmart..I will get you some wood and you guys make a nice fire in there,,that should get their attention..

If you can figure a way to make the maintenance group perform quickly and complete the job the first time, please tell your bishop.  He would be glad to know about it.  It seems to be a pervasive problem in ward house maintenance throughout the Church. 

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

No, I'm sure there are lots of reasons qualified people don't get promoted. 

Life is definitely not fair.  it's ok to want to change that as much as possible. 😊

Life is not fair and there really are a limited number of opportunities.  I have worked for major banks, independent investment firms, and my own business.  The larger the organization the more inefficiencies and incompetence is observed.  They don't recognize talent easily and people move on to other opportunities.  Though you meet some extremely talented people, I found that the higher up the pole you went the more.....interesting the people in positions of authority.  For a few I could never guess how they got there.  I suspect that is the way it is in every organization.  

Regardless, advancement is not solely a gender issue (However, given how PC it is to be "diversified" middle management is a shoe-in for an active, aggressive, competent female or any of the other preferred classes of diversification.  I did not stick around to move beyond a VP position.  Banks were going through so many buy-outs it was not interesting to me.  I joined an investment firm and pursued the partner path until I owned my own investment company.  I was not anything special and anyone could have done what I did regardless of gender.  I worked hard and voted with my feet - I left when there was no opportunity.