salgare Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 D&C 129 In thinking about Prophets, Seers and Revelators along with tests given to identify Disciples of Christ, the thought of evidences came to mind. Maybe metaphorically there are physical tests/evidences required for some, but not available to others 1. Hard evidence, i.e. feel the prints, thrust ones hand in the wounded side. The highest standard 2. I have not the hard evidence, but will not try and deceive your spirit 3. I have not the hard evidence, but will try and deceive your spirit. Of course these keys are intended for discerning "Angels of Light" There are only a few lay members (count on one hand) that I suspect may have required this knowledge. I assume the intent/hope is that all of us might come to require it. But it seems we are left to find the path here on our own, and/or lead by a Prophet. It seems to me that us, finding our selves in this physical, key one sphere have also been given an alternative physical evidence to test those who proclaim to have messages of light. I would suggest that there is little worth in thrashing over the value of what was said, i.e. the message being of man or of God without first applying the given test for physical evidence of the messenger. Apparently the deceivers (3rd key, intentional or not) can be pretty darn tricky for our spirits to decipher and trust. We have been given the keys to identify the messengers, are we using them or resorting to struggle with individual messages, one by one? Your thoughts?
jwhitlock Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 If you're going to look for evidences of a prophet, you need to be specific about what those are. What you've listed in the OP are things related either to Christ or angels and don't apply on the same basis. I'll reiterate what I said elsewhere. You recognize a prophet when that person is speaking as a prophet and the Spirit witnesses to you it is so. There are no other sure-fire identifiable traits outside of the confirmation of the Spirit for recognizing a prophet.
salgare Posted December 29, 2015 Author Posted December 29, 2015 (edited) 16 minutes ago, jwhitlock said: If you're going to look for evidences of a prophet, you need to be specific about what those are. I believe some words in red from the NT lay this out. Quote What you've listed in the OP are things related either to Christ or angels and don't apply on the same basis] I thought I had clearly pointed that out along with relating how it might apply to lesser spheres also suggesting they have messages of light for you. JW, are you really unaware of the given test for this evidence? Does it not seem important to you that God provided scripture warning of these dangers and has given us the tests for them? Does not abandoning the scripture given tests in favor of one's personal revelation not seem a dangerous path? Edited December 29, 2015 by salgare
jwhitlock Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 Well, quit beating around the bush and lay it out from the scriptures, then. I've been through it all before, so it will be interesting to see if you have anything new to add.
salgare Posted December 29, 2015 Author Posted December 29, 2015 (edited) There is no mystery here jw. Simply look to what they do, not what they say. What they do is a physical evidence. There is little reason to look for true messengers in any individual with a flawed root. The root of the Mormon hierarchy seems unique in that there are two individuals who's fruit should be tested: 1. Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 2. Thomas S. Monson, Prophet, Seer and Revelator. As individuals do grow and change (hopefully for the better) judging these fruits over a recent time frame is likely preferred. If this dual root is flawed, is not the whole tree flawed? Edited December 29, 2015 by salgare
jwhitlock Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 3 minutes ago, salgare said: There is no mystery here jw. Simply look to what they do, not what they say. What they do is a physical evidence. There is little reason to look for true messengers in any individual with a flawed root. The root of the Mormon hierarchy seems unique in that there are two individuals who's fruit should be tested: 1. Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 2. Thomas S. Monson, Prophet, Seer and Revelator. As individuals do grow and change (hopefully for the better) judging these fruits over a recent time frame is likely preferred. If this dual root is flawed, is not the whole tree flawed? Really? Look to what they do? Do you understand that: - Elijah personally slaughtered the priests of Baal after he won the contest against them? - Moses killed an Egyptian who was beating an Israelite slave and then hid the body? - Abraham lied about who Sarah was (she's my sister!) because he was afraid of Abimelech? - John the Baptist did no miracles at all? - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all had multiple wives? - Isaiah tells Hezekiah that he's going to die soon, and it doesn't come to pass? - Samuel hacked Agag to pieces before the Lord? - Peter denies knowing Christ? And the list goes on. Anyone who demands perfection from a prophet would find plenty of "flawed roots" in those the Lord has designated prophets in the scriptures. Fortunately the Church of Jesus Christ (note who's church it is) does not have its "roots" in mere mortals, but in Christ. And Christ deemed it appropriate to use "flawed" individuals - which we all happen to be, if you haven't noticed - to organize His church and to move His work forward. Because that's the way it's always been. So it's really, really doubtful that you or I, with our own flawed and limited perspectives, can look at another individual and determine whether they're really a prophet just through what they say or do. It requires the Spirit to make that determination. 3
salgare Posted December 29, 2015 Author Posted December 29, 2015 Ouch, what an ugly list from those angry OT days eh? Seemed to have thinned out there in the NT, that's good. And as noted, individuals do grow and change over time. Thus, judging Peter's fruits over the more recent time frame, in fact is not our seeing that change in him part of his good fruits? But of course it should be pretty easy for us to examine the fruits of living contemporaries, especially being in the boom of this information age. For the temporal branches of the tree should be examine say from 1950 on (covering four or so generations) or keep it say to this millennium? And what of the spiritual branches ... Say from the time they became 70's? or once again, what they might have produced in the last 15 years? IMO, Here is a good example: 1
jwhitlock Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 I seem to detect some photoshopping in that image. However, what's your point? 1
Ahab Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 Instead of focusing on identifying disciples of Christ just be one yourself by having a personal relationship with Jesus, yourself. Then it will simply be a matter of finding other people like you and Jesus. 1
salgare Posted December 29, 2015 Author Posted December 29, 2015 50 minutes ago, jwhitlock said: I seem to detect some photoshopping in that image. However, what's your point? wow, that is really really sad dude.
salgare Posted December 29, 2015 Author Posted December 29, 2015 11 minutes ago, Ahab said: Instead of focusing on identifying disciples of Christ just be one yourself by having a personal relationship with Jesus, yourself. Then it will simply be a matter of finding other people like you and Jesus. I'm good with cutting out the middle man, in fact have.
Ahab Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 Good, me too, aside from Jesus who is the middle man between us and our Father, and the Holy Spirit too who is the middle man between us and Jesus. Other than those 2 middle men other prophets of God, besides me, are simply telling me things that God has also told me.
salgare Posted December 29, 2015 Author Posted December 29, 2015 1 hour ago, jwhitlock said: I seem to detect some photoshopping in that image. However, what's your point? I still can't get over you saying this. What's my point you ask? That the photo I presented to you is so foreign to the fruits you expect to see, that you are used to seeing from your Prophets Seers and Revelators that I MUST HAVE photochopped the image. wow again.
jwhitlock Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 23 minutes ago, salgare said: I still can't get over you saying this. What's my point you ask? That the photo I presented to you is so foreign to the fruits you expect to see, that you are used to seeing from your Prophets Seers and Revelators that I MUST HAVE photochopped the image. wow again. My whole point is that determining who is a prophet by their actions is imprecise. It's not reliable. I gave examples in the scriptures as to why that was so. However, the photo itself simply looked photoshopped. The concept of what it's portraying isn't foreign, the image still looks photoshopped to me. Don't try to read more into it than that. It was a side comment. So you still haven't told us what your point was in posting the image. While it's nice that it portrays President Uchtdorf serving, it doesn't prove whether he's a prophet or not. If it did, any of the other people serving in the picture could also have been prophets, by that same logic. 1
JLHPROF Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 44 minutes ago, salgare said: I'm good with cutting out the middle man, in fact have. Ah, the shoe drops. Thank you for establishing where you are coming from. Now we understand which doctrines you will and won't accept, (and which same old repetitive arguments you will be resorting to). 1
salgare Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) ah, my old friend jlhprof ... not to worry, I'm not likely to be here long. You, of all the defenders here are the one whom holds Mormon Doctrine values very close to where I'm coming from. I very much admired you for that ... I hope nothing's changed btw you are one (your very limited type anyway) whom I would be counting on that one hand to have need of those D&C tests. Edited December 30, 2015 by salgare
JLHPROF Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) 4 hours ago, salgare said: ah, my old friend jlhprof ... Is it wrong that I read this in Khan's voice? Maybe I missed something (been pretty busy at work) but have we corresponded before? I assume you had a previous account to this new one if we did. EDIT - Ahh CCRW, my old friend. (I really need to read the Social Hall occasionally). 4 hours ago, salgare said: You, of all the defenders here are the one whom holds Mormon Doctrine values very close to where I'm coming from. I very much admired you for that ... I hope nothing's changed Not sure exactly what you are referring to. My position on doctrine has been pretty clear on this board (and I hope pretty consistent). Not exactly TBM but not full blown apostate either. Kind of a traditionalist - is that what we share? Edited December 30, 2015 by JLHPROF
Calm Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) 5 hours ago, salgare said: I still can't get over you saying this. What's my point you ask? That the photo I presented to you is so foreign to the fruits you expect to see, that you are used to seeing from your Prophets Seers and Revelators that I MUST HAVE photochopped the image. wow again. I think it is more the screwed up perspective...the guy under the tray looks too far back for where Pres. Utchdorf is standing. It looks photoshopped to me to and I am well aware that he has spent time helping out in similar locations: https://www.facebook.com/lds.dieter.f.uchtdorf/posts/173029949534357 Edited December 30, 2015 by Calm 2
Calm Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Quote Ouch, what an ugly list from those angry OT days eh? Elijah is also the prophet who provided the widow and her son with food until the famine ended, possibly many years and raised her son from the dead because of her faith.
salgare Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Is it wrong that I read this in Khan's voice? too funny Quote EDIT - Ahh CCRW, my old friend. (I really need to read the Social Hall occasionally). Seems the new software requires 25 posts in social before any rights are given here. I reported myself in the disclosure post, asking that ccrw be reinstated. No response yet ... but still here! (heavy heavy hang over ... what do you wish this person, with a bump on the head?) Quote Not exactly TBM but not full blown apostate either. Kind of a traditionalist - is that what we share? fundatraditionalist yea that. Hope you had a great Christmas and all is well. Edited December 30, 2015 by salgare
salgare Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: I think it is more the screwed up perspective...the guy under the tray looks too far back for where Pres. Utchdorf is standing. It looks photoshopped to me to and I am well aware that he has spent time helping out in similar locations: https://www.facebook.com/lds.dieter.f.uchtdorf/posts/173029949534357 http://www.ksl.com/?sid=37900239&nid=148 I played a mean trick on Russel a long time back. Other than that, my history is clean as far as being honest and forthright in my posting Edited December 30, 2015 by salgare
Tacenda Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 My friend had her picture taken with Uchtdorf that day, so I knew it wasn't photoshopped, he was wearing that same outfit.
salgare Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) 11 hours ago, salgare said: Does it not seem important to you that God provided scripture warning of these dangers and has given us the tests for them? Does not abandoning the scripture given tests in favor of one's personal revelation not seem a dangerous path? I've derailed my own thread ... Others thoughts ... Edited December 30, 2015 by salgare
Avatar4321 Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Read this thread multiple times. Still not sure what is going on
salgare Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) 1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said: Read this thread multiple times. Still not sure what is going on I keep hearing, across multiple threads the likes of ... "85% of what the GA's have told me, my personal revelation has validated and thus I'm good with considering them Prophets Seers and Revelators, authorized by Jesus Christ to lead me. They are human and fallible and sometimes speak as men (15% of the time) but even more often they have a message for me from God (85%)" Thus it is up to every member to utilize personal revelation to determine if any given statement from a GA is from God or simply from the man ... there is a 15% plus or minus error rate you know. In one of these threads I mentioned I had recently seen this debate elsewhere... of determining who is a Prophet, which kept falling back to the responsibility of the individual to determine, with no expectations/evidences required of the messenger. This message by message deciphering by personal revelation of the truth or error of each being required. The critic kept asking about the "by their fruits yea shall known them" concept and the defender keep responding with the fallibility/individual's personal responsibility concept. Of course I realize it is only the individual who can make this determination. What I'm suggesting/questioning is why one would bother trying to discern individual messages (isolate out that 15%) without first applying the given test to see if they are even worth listening to in the first place. In other places, I've seen this debate move to the questions of if it is even possible for a given evil tree to have a limb that happens to produce good fruit. The President Dieter F. Uchtdorf example fits in here as what I would understand as a Christlike fruit, but also opening up the question of is this a mixed fruit tree? Sorry about my scattered thoughts ... its partly from brain damage (and part falling off a nut tree). Edited December 30, 2015 by salgare
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