Teancum Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 17 hours ago, mfbukowski said: He or she who gives life changing insights into religion is a "prophet" It's as simple as that, imo. So would the current Pope qualify? I think he surpasses many other current religious leaders in the life changing insight into religion category.
salgare Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) 26 minutes ago, volgadon said: The additional quote from the talk shows that fruit here includes the effect that learning about Jesus' life and teachings has on our own lives. The Alma 32 experiment is included in that test! So is a personal witness from God. Going back to the article on top of the furthered discussion here has helped me to better see the other concepts being presented here. I'd about given up on this thread in frustration. I'm glad I went one step more, making it a total success for me. I've gained the respect for you, where in I can not jump to offense by your posts in the future but to try and hear what you are saying. Thank you for that. Now satisfied with my win (one of those mundane, unexpected type deals) ... Back to the amazement over that crazy photo .... carry on .. Edited January 2, 2016 by salgare 1
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Teancum said: Can you help me out here. Where can I find a directive that religious questions cannot be examined based on evidence, at least in part? Sure. DC 93 Quote 30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. President Kimball on Absolute Truth https://www.lds.org/ensign/1978/09/absolute-truth?lang=eng Quote The Gods organized and gave life to man and placed him on the earth. This is absolute. It cannot be disproved. A million brilliant minds might conjecture otherwise, but it is still true. And having done all this for his Father’s children, the Christ mapped out a plan of life for man—a positive and absolute program whereby man might achieve, accomplish, and overcome and perfect himself. Again, these vital truths are not matters of opinion. If they were, then your opinion would be just as good as mine, or better. But I give you these things, not as my opinion—I give them to you as divine truths which are absolute. Some day you will see and feel and understand and perhaps even berate yourself for the long delay and waste of time. It is not a matter of if. It is a matter of when. Experience in one field does not automatically create expertise in another field. Expertise in religion comes from personal righteousness and from revelation. The Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith: “All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it.” (D&C 93:30.) A geologist who has discovered truths about the structure of the earth may be oblivious to the truths God has given us about the eternal nature of the family. If I can only make clear this one thing, it will give us a basis on which to build. Man cannot discover God or his ways by mere mental processes. One must be governed by the laws which control the realm into which he is delving. To become a plumber, one must study the laws which govern plumbing. He must know stresses and strains, temperatures at which pipes will freeze, laws which govern steam, hot water, expansion, contraction, and so forth. One might know much about plumbing and be a complete failure in training children or getting along with men. One might be the best of bookkeepers and yet not know anything of electricity. One might know much about buying and selling groceries and be absolutely ignorant of bridge building. One might be a great authority on the hydrogen bomb and yet know nothing of banking. One might be a noted theologian and yet be wholly untrained in watchmaking. One might be the author of the law of relativity and yet know nothing of the Creator who originated every law. I repeat, these are not matters of opinion. They are absolute truths. These truths are available to every soul. Any intelligent man may learn what he wants to learn. He may acquire knowledge in any field, though it requires much thought and effort. It takes more than a decade to get a high school diploma; it takes an additional four years for most people to get a college degree; it takes nearly a quarter-century to become a great physician. Why, oh, why do people think they can fathom the most complex spiritual depths without the necessary experimental and laboratory work accompanied by compliance with the laws that govern it? Absurd it is, but you will frequently find popular personalities, who seem never to have lived a single law of God, discoursing in interviews on religion. How ridiculous for such persons to attempt to outline for the world a way of life! And yet many a financier, politician, college professor, or owner of a gambling club thinks that because he has risen above all his fellowmen in his particular field he knows everything in every field. One cannot know God nor understand his works or plans unless he follows the laws which govern. The spiritual realm, which is just as absolute as is the physical, cannot be understood by the laws of the physical. You do not learn to make electric generators in a seminary. Neither do you learn certain truths about spiritual things in a physics laboratory. You must go to the spiritual laboratory, use the facilities available there, and comply with the governing rules. Then you may know of these truths just as surely, or more surely, than the scientist knows the metals, or the acids, or other elements. It matters little whether one is a plumber, or a banker, or a farmer, for these occupations are secondary; what is most important is what one knows and believes concerning his past and his future and what he does about it. There's lots more but those pop into my mind without thinking about it. I charge $300 per hour for research. That's a discount because this is for church afterall. Besides you need to look it up for yourself. Edit: Oh yeah, then there is Wittgenstein. Truth is contextual and depends on the "language game" being spoken. You may not recognize it but that is exactly what President Kimball is saying as well. Edited January 2, 2016 by mfbukowski
Teancum Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 13 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Sure. DC 93 President Kimball on Absolute Truth https://www.lds.org/ensign/1978/09/absolute-truth?lang=eng There's lots more but those pop into my mind without thinking about it. I charge $300 per hour for research. That's a discount because this is for church afterall. Besides you need to look it up for yourself. Edit: Oh yeah, then there is Wittgenstein. Truth is contextual and depends on the "language game" being spoken. You may not recognize it but that is exactly what President Kimball is saying as well. I have some thoughts on your post above specifically as it relates to the Kimball quote that I do not have time to share right now. I may or may not share them later. I have to decide if it is really worth my time. More and more I see there is a great divide on this board and I really wonder what any of us accomplish. It seems to me there is little honest and civil discussion... and I often can add to that. But I am trying. I think the poster who started this thread is trying. I see many who are not trying but rather seem to be more interested in being cute and scoring points. You rank right up there. Perhaps your quip above was in jest and humor. If so and I am misreading you then I apologize. But I see a lot of stridence and arrogance in your posting and the comment above seems symptomatic. I am starting to feel that I would rather spend my time in more worthwhile pursuits. I love to read and read a lot. I have five books on a variety of topics that I have been working through for a year. I need to wrap them up because there are other books on my list (including the Givens book your recommended) Also my work life takes more of my time than it ever has and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. That said your directive for me to "look it up yourself" presumes I am not familiar with the construct you promote. I am. I have lived it most my 56 years and an active Latter-day Saint. I have studied it. I asked you because I wanted to see what you would based your position that one cannot use evidence in their seeking after religious knowledge. This is after all a discussion board. You may think as a convert you have some grand insight into Mormonism and as one up on many who were raised LDS. You don't. In fact in my opinion, and only based on what I read from your posts, you like many do, have crafted a Mormonism that works for you. I find it very different from the one that the those who run things have created. And I do not say that critically. If it works for you great. I did that and still do. The way I viewed Mormonism at 15 years old, 25 years old, 35, 45 and now 56 years is all very different at those various times in my life. Back to the first sentence of the paragraph above. As noted I am very familiar with the construct. I have used it. Currently I view it as an unreliable method for finding the correct path to God, or whether or not there is a God at least a God like what the major theistic religions promote about God an this for many reasons that I have shared on this board before. But I still try to use it and I pray as if such a being exists. In fact my prayers last night were focused on the your post above. This is one reason why I still participate in the LDS Church and why I don't rush out of it. And it may surprise you that I still view much of what came from Joseph Smith is a similar way that you do. Not all, but much. There is much I view from him as suspect as well and for a number of evidential reasons there is much from him that I do not believe or trust. Anyway, I hope you can take this knowing I am sincere and not attempting to put you or anyone else down in what I post and I still view myself a seeker of truth whatever that may mean. I am open to what I currently conclude to being wrong. For me at least the journey has been painful. But the carping on this board and the seeming need for so many of us here to score points, be witty or just to be down right obnoxious is getting old for me. For my part I hope I am doing better. Happy New Year! 3
Tacenda Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 Teancum, you could be me. I understand the feelings you shared. I hope you will continue with your books, and share when finished, any insights. 1
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Teancum said: I have some thoughts on your post above specifically as it relates to the Kimball quote that I do not have time to share right now. I may or may not share them later. I have to decide if it is really worth my time. More and more I see there is a great divide on this board and I really wonder what any of us accomplish. It seems to me there is little honest and civil discussion... and I often can add to that. But I am trying. I think the poster who started this thread is trying. I see many who are not trying but rather seem to be more interested in being cute and scoring points. You rank right up there. Perhaps your quip above was in jest and humor. If so and I am misreading you then I apologize. But I see a lot of stridence and arrogance in your posting and the comment above seems symptomatic. I am starting to feel that I would rather spend my time in more worthwhile pursuits. I love to read and read a lot. I have five books on a variety of topics that I have been working through for a year. I need to wrap them up because there are other books on my list (including the Givens book your recommended) Also my work life takes more of my time than it ever has and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. That said your directive for me to "look it up yourself" presumes I am not familiar with the construct you promote. I am. I have lived it most my 56 years and an active Latter-day Saint. I have studied it. I asked you because I wanted to see what you would based your position that one cannot use evidence in their seeking after religious knowledge. This is after all a discussion board. You may think as a convert you have some grand insight into Mormonism and as one up on many who were raised LDS. You don't. In fact in my opinion, and only based on what I read from your posts, you like many do, have crafted a Mormonism that works for you. I find it very different from the one that the those who run things have created. And I do not say that critically. If it works for you great. I did that and still do. The way I viewed Mormonism at 15 years old, 25 years old, 35, 45 and now 56 years is all very different at those various times in my life. Back to the first sentence of the paragraph above. As noted I am very familiar with the construct. I have used it. Currently I view it as an unreliable method for finding the correct path to God, or whether or not there is a God at least a God like what the major theistic religions promote about God an this for many reasons that I have shared on this board before. But I still try to use it and I pray as if such a being exists. In fact my prayers last night were focused on the your post above. This is one reason why I still participate in the LDS Church and why I don't rush out of it. And it may surprise you that I still view much of what came from Joseph Smith is a similar way that you do. Not all, but much. There is much I view from him as suspect as well and for a number of evidential reasons there is much from him that I do not believe or trust. Anyway, I hope you can take this knowing I am sincere and not attempting to put you or anyone else down in what I post and I still view myself a seeker of truth whatever that may mean. I am open to what I currently conclude to being wrong. For me at least the journey has been painful. But the carping on this board and the seeming need for so many of us here to score points, be witty or just to be down right obnoxious is getting old for me. For my part I hope I am doing better. Happy New Year! Thanks for that great post. Unquestionably, I am not kind those I see as critics, and that includes you. Yes of course I was being sarcastic, and I am truly sorry if I offended you. I think it is up to us indeed to create our own worlds out of matter unorganized- I see the teachings of the church to apply as much to our personal spiritual journeys symbolically as to any story about cosmology. I am Adam symbolically on some level and my journey is his journey. Sometimes when praying I myself am not sure if my conversation is with something deep inside me or Someone outside me. But for me that doesn't matter. Those conversations with my god-self can be life changing. Perhaps I am addressing some Ideal within me or some Ideal Being outside me- it doesn't matter because I cannot tell the difference. That's why I say that science is about the outside world and religion is about the interior world- our ATTITUDE in facing the outside world and constructing an inside attitude of belief that allows us to deal with life and its changes. I don't care if my Mormonism resembles or does not resemble anyone else's. I don't see why it should. I am a faithful believing member, and I can tell the truth and pass a temple recommend interview. I think that everyone should examine the roots of their beliefs, and think that those who have not are missing something in life. And that includes Mormons who take everything at face value that their Momma taught them. At some point we must put off childish things. You see I really have read the scriptures and I think that they can be taken literally sometimes, but that the admonishment to put off childish things was pretty literal. Paul really wanted us to do that. Indeed in speaking of the veil as "through a glass darkly" he speaks of a mirror. When we look at God we see ourselves, at first "darkly", but through life it becomes "face to face". I know myself better now than I ever have, and I feel I know God now better than I ever have. And that is also what I find the richness of Mormonism to be- the idea of a Human God is incredible in this aspect. We ARE gods. You are a god. We all need to teach each other as gods and respond to each other as gods. So I apologize for my ungodly behavior. I thought you were just being a smart-aleck and I was responding in that way. Sorry for the misunderstanding. But as I said, yes I am constructing Mormonism in my own way, and I think we all should do so. Belief is all that matters. Faith is a HOPE for things unseen. I'm hoping. But on the other hand, I am hedging my bets by being the best human I can be anyway because as a human being - that is what we are supposed to do. I feel that in my bones- that striving to become better. It is what I must do. But for me that is also being the best mormon I can be, because they are the same. If God is human, all who worship God are worshiping humanity' best "self". It can be metaphorical and "real" at the same time. THAT is one of the major reasons I am a Mormon. I don't know if it is symbol or "real" and it doesn't matter. I would live the exact same way if tomorrow I knew for a certainty there was no God. It just doesn't matter to my life. So I hope we can have more civil conversations- and I will do my best. 2
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 The reason I push "Pragmatism" is that it emphasizes that since we cannot know for certain if our perceptions are right or wrong about these matters, we just treat all those beliefs as if they were "true" since that is the best any of us can do. In contemplating the unknowable and unknown, whatever construct one comes up with is better than none at all.
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) 17 hours ago, Teancum said: So would the current Pope qualify? I think he surpasses many other current religious leaders in the life changing insight into religion category. I personally see him as a person who has a testimony of Christ Revelation 19:10 Quote And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do itnot: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. I always feel I have to be cagey around here because I don't want people saying "Bukowski says the pope is a prophet!" Yes he is a prophet as others outside the church may be but he is not The Prophet. Hopefully we are all prophets. On the other hand, personally, he has not said anything life changing for me. Same old stuff with a different emphasis, and I am not sure I like some of the emphasis. Edited January 2, 2016 by mfbukowski 2
Teancum Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Thanks for that great post. Unquestionably, I am not kind those I see as critics, and that includes you. Yes of course I was being sarcastic, and I am truly sorry if I offended you. I think it is up to us indeed to create our own worlds out of matter unorganized- I see the teachings of the church to apply as much to our personal spiritual journeys symbolically as to any story about cosmology. I am Adam symbolically on some level and my journey is his journey. Sometimes when praying I myself am not sure if my conversation is with something deep inside me or Someone outside me. But for me that doesn't matter. Those conversations with my god-self can be life changing. Perhaps I am addressing some Ideal within me or some Ideal Being outside me- it doesn't matter because I cannot tell the difference. That's why I say that science is about the outside world and religion is about the interior world- our ATTITUDE in facing the outside world and constructing an inside attitude of belief that allows us to deal with life and its changes. I don't care if my Mormonism resembles or does not resemble anyone else's. I don't see why it should. I am a faithful believing member, and I can tell the truth and pass a temple recommend interview. I think that everyone should examine the roots of their beliefs, and think that those who have not are missing something in life. And that includes Mormons who take everything at face value that their Momma taught them. At some point we must put off childish things. You see I really have read the scriptures and I think that they can be taken literally sometimes, but that the admonishment to put off childish things was pretty literal. Paul really wanted us to do that. Indeed in speaking of the veil as "through a glass darkly" he speaks of a mirror. When we look at God we see ourselves, at first "darkly", but through life it becomes "face to face". I know myself better now than I ever have, and I feel I know God now better than I ever have. And that is also what I find the richness of Mormonism to be- the idea of a Human God is incredible in this aspect. We ARE gods. You are a god. We all need to teach each other as gods and respond to each other as gods. So I apologize for my ungodly behavior. I thought you were just being a smart-aleck and I was responding in that way. Sorry for the misunderstanding. But as I said, yes I am constructing Mormonism in my own way, and I think we all should do so. Belief is all that matters. Faith is a HOPE for things unseen. I'm hoping. But on the other hand, I am hedging my bets by being the best human I can be anyway because as a human being - that is what we are supposed to do. I feel that in my bones- that striving to become better. It is what I must do. But for me that is also being the best mormon I can be, because they are the same. If God is human, all who worship God are worshiping humanity' best "self". It can be metaphorical and "real" at the same time. THAT is one of the major reasons I am a Mormon. I don't know if it is symbol or "real" and it doesn't matter. I would live the exact same way if tomorrow I knew for a certainty there was no God. It just doesn't matter to my life. So I hope we can have more civil conversations- and I will do my best. Now this WAS A GREAT POST! Thank you. I will ponder it and let's work together. You actually do have much to offer. I view you as a deep thinker and you have much I can learn from. And I do want to learn. I was talking with someone very close to my recently about my faith journey. I told him how painful it is and how if you would have told me ten years ago (I was serving as a bishop at that time) that I would be where I am now I would have told you that you were nuts. He said that truth seekers always go through pain. He said you may or may not stay in Mormonism. But if you do it will be much different for you than it was before. I think he speaks truth. 3
mfbukowski Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 52 minutes ago, Teancum said: Now this WAS A GREAT POST! Thank you. I will ponder it and let's work together. You actually do have much to offer. I view you as a deep thinker and you have much I can learn from. And I do want to learn. I was talking with someone very close to my recently about my faith journey. I told him how painful it is and how if you would have told me ten years ago (I was serving as a bishop at that time) that I would be where I am now I would have told you that you were nuts. He said that truth seekers always go through pain. He said you may or may not stay in Mormonism. But if you do it will be much different for you than it was before. I think he speaks truth. Fantastic! And if you want to go to email just pm me any time and we can take it more privately, but I hope our conversations could be helpful to others as well. I am still looking for my voice to communicate with others like - us - and this will be a good help to me as well. "Mormonese" is not my first language - what I wrote in that post was more the "real me" so maybe that works better. We shall see. But definitely let's keep talking 1
salgare Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) Teancum Before being banned last time, I felt I was starting to make contact with mfb. He does seem, upon return to have hardened a bit but I have every hope he will soften again to a willingness to share. I felt a success in this thread by volgadon showing me that personal contact and worthwhile discussion is still possible here. And he is added to the my list of the likes of mfb, Robert F. Smith and JLHPROF whom are brilliant men and whom have shared with me. I can only hope that the likes of jw and Scott can/will come around. Now, I may be in total outer space with my thoughts to your very pointed post, and may only hurt what I've spend this last week off of work trying to feel out and reestablish, but here goes: If my "frustration" mentioned up thread lead to total failure, I was out of here for the same reasons you mention. Basically a lack of respect or any show of desire/value for me as a poster here. I'm not interested in just being a guest here, or a resident critic of which we come for the the daily battles. This board is just not worthy of me or my time anymore if I'm not wanted/welcome here. There are pros and cons to the administrative style used here. Stemming from the hay-day years of the FAIR board moving to the MAD board and trickling into these MDDB years. This being anonymous admins and a fear based posting environment where a ban hammer has been used as a control mechanism for maintaining the atmosphere and purposes of the site. I have a feeling that the regular badge of honor posters here has thinned, presumably along with their representation/influence with administration. Of course with anonymous and mostly silent admins the resulting lack of transparency leaves one to only guess. The only hint I get to this assumption is what I viewed as a bit of an invite back from H7's efforts on MDB, and hence why I've spent time this week trying to decider if my assumptions are just wrong. H7 was mostly abused by a group of individuals who's past experience with this anonymous, silent and ban driven management style will not give it a second thought. Consig, John Williams and myself seem to have, as one shared with me "masochist tendencies" to continue to try. The admins here do have a tough call, with the likes of my recent offenses to Bobbieaware with long time regulars who truly are offended and have no interest in conversation with trailer park types. And yet, judging by whom I've seen posting this week maybe its getting a bit stale. The level of diversity to allow must be a tough call. Then again maybe its just Christmas and most of the regulars are still on vacation. I can only suggest that admins become a bit less silent/transparent in directing the atmosphere and purposes of the site (lurkers, community, discussion). As for individual posters we will get out of this what we are willing to put into it and we also need to work at what we want this to be for i.e. lurkers, community, discussion. As for me, if the main focus is for lurkers and/or maintaining badges of honor wars, the site has nothing to offer me. I too must get back to work on Monday as well so my frequency of posting will drop. However, having confirmed and now assuming an invitation to come back via other threads, and now a confirmation here in this thread of willingness for respectful relationships, I'm going to stick it out, to put in the effort of seeking for some personal contact and dual respect and see if some great conversations can not follow. I hope others have similar hopes. Edited January 2, 2016 by salgare 1
salgare Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Thanks for that great post. Unquestionably, I am not kind those I see as critics, and that includes you. Why? And do you intend to continue here with that attitude with me? If so, I surely will not bother you any more, nor pay any attention to what you reply to any of my remarks as I know they will have been flung with intent to hurt, not to share. On MDB I've found my own "mental ignore" I don't physical ignore withe the web application tools, but I tend to only briefly scan and not reply. If I should put you on mental ignore so as not to bother you I will do that. btw, the rest of that post was excellent When threads degenerate into one line sniping and post/poster reviews it drives people out. If you want to talk about yourself go to Social Hall.
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