Church's new Political Policy (Did Prop 8 have any influence?)

[Zakuska]

I wonder if the Church's political involvement in Prop. 8 had anything to do with this new Political Policy implemented in 2011?

 

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The "Mormon Political Manifesto" (formally, "The Political Rule of the Church") was a document issued by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) in 1895 to regulate the involvement of its general authorities in politics. Up until the mid-1890s, the LDS Church had proactively supported the People's Party (Utah) and entering politics had been seen as almost a part of several church leader's ecclesiastical responsibilities. Leading up to the issuance of the Manifesto, there was major disagreement about church members entering politics. Utah was transitioning to statehood and to a situation where the two national parties dominated Utah politics, and the church began to adopt a posture of political neutrality.
The leaders of the church, led by church president Wilford Woodruff, decided to establish a written rule that the general authorities of the church would require the approval of the First Presidency before seeking public office. Apostle Moses Thatcher did not agree with this new rule and in 1896 was removed from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles over the issue. B. H. Roberts, a general authority of the church, resisted the Manifesto at first, but agreed to it in 1896 under threat of being removed from his position.
More recently, the LDS Church has taken a more stringent rule on political involvement by its leaders. Current policies prohibit general authorities not only from running for office but also from contributing financially to political campaigns. This policy was implemented in 2011.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Political_Manifesto

Edited December 23, 2015 by Zakuska

[TheSkepticChristian]

7 minutes ago, Zakuska said:

Current policies prohibit general authorities not only from running for office but also from contributing financially to political campaigns

thank goodness 

[Zakuska]

22 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

thank goodness 

Well its not like we didn't already have canonized scripture regulating Church/State Political involvement.(ala... D&C 134) that they chose to ignore during Prop. 8.

It seems the church also forgot about this 1895 "Manifesto" from President Woodruff maybe it should have been Canonized too?

Not that it would do any good, and Probably just be ignored again.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

It seems the 2011 Policy was already Ingored at least once.

 

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Stirling’s e-mail to the C.E.O. of the Church-owned Deseret Book Company outlined a covert strategy (which Apostle Holland approved) of “coordinating” donations for Romney through Deseret Book and Brigham Young University’s Management Society of M.B.A. alumni, “while not creating undue heartburn” (i.e., media attention).

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2012/10/mormon-politicians-lds-church-romney

Edited December 23, 2015 by Zakuska

[Robert F. Smith]

5 minutes ago, Zakuska said:

It seems the 2011 Policy was already Ingored at least once.

Quote

Stirling’s e-mail to the C.E.O. of the Church-owned Deseret Book Company outlined a covert strategy (which Apostle Holland approved) of “coordinating” donations for Romney through Deseret Book and Brigham Young University’s Management Society of M.B.A. alumni, “while not creating undue heartburn” (i.e., media attention).

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2012/10/mormon-politicians-lds-church-romney

That requires more documentation than someone's offhand email.  Do we have documentation from Elder Holland's office that he in fact approved? Would Deseret Book or the BYU MBA alumni (who are not a part of BYU) actually be that stupid?  Sounds like an idea which didn't go anywhere.

[Zakuska]

Interesting quote from Elder Ballard...

 

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In fact, U.S. News & World Report had conducted an interview with a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, which seemed to prod Romney into making the long-promised speech. Its reporter asked M. Russell Ballard, “Has Mitt Romney sought any suggestions from you, or have you advised him in any way to talk about the church? Have you urged him to give the ‘Kennedy speech’ and talk more directly about his faith?” Apostle Ballard’s reply: “No and no. There’s a real brick wall between the campaign and the church. He’s going to have to make that decision about the ‘Kennedy speech’ all by himself.”

 

Where does that put our thread...

<forthcoming>

Edited December 23, 2015 by Zakuska

[HappyJackWagon]

8 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That requires more documentation than someone's offhand email.  Do we have documentation from Elder Holland's office that he in fact approved? Would Deseret Book or the BYU MBA alumni (who are not a part of BYU) actually be that stupid?  Sounds like an idea which didn't go anywhere.

How would we ever verify any question with the church, whether about Holland's involvement in this, or the overall church role in Prop 8? The church and its authorities are not particularly transparent. So since we can never really know how things are functioning we are left to speculate or simply throw up our hands and say "I'm sure everything is fine" and stop wondering.

The lack of transparency should be alarming to most people. Think of how much we don't know about the operations, finances, etc of the church we covenant to support.

[Zakuska]

38 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Edited December 23, 2015 by Zakuska

[Robert F. Smith]

16 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

How would we ever verify any question with the church, whether about Holland's involvement in this, or the overall church role in Prop 8? The church and its authorities are not particularly transparent. So since we can never really know how things are functioning we are left to speculate or simply throw up our hands and say "I'm sure everything is fine" and stop wondering.

The lack of transparency should be alarming to most people. Think of how much we don't know about the operations, finances, etc of the church we covenant to support.

Nonsense, HappyJack, there are plenty of reliable resources to use, rather than engage in rank speculation.  Real journalists actually interview people, quote them, and use anonymous sources the way WoodStein did to ferret out the facts in the Watergate Affair -- getting corroboration on those anonymous claims.  Peggy Fletcher of the Tribune is one of those careful and professional journalists.  Ask her how it is done.

[Zakuska]

Quote

“The Boston Globe over the past week has reported that an e-mail by Don Stirling, a Utah-based political consultant for Romney, said that LDS leaders, including church president Gordon B. Hinckley, knew about the meetings between Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve and Romney supporters, including [Kem] Gardner.”

Primary Source for the Elder Holland meeting and endorsment with Don Sitrling and Sheri Dew

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/10/22/how_the_efforts_to_help_governor_romney_could_move_forward/

Emails is Legit...

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'How the efforts to help Governor Romney could move forward'
The following are the texts of two e-mails from a key consultant to Governor Mitt Romney that say that the leader of the Mormon Church was consulted on a plan to build Mormon support for Romney's potential presidential bid.

October 22, 2006

E-mail|Reprints|Text size – +
To: Sheri L. Dew From: Don Stirling Date: Friday, Sept. 8, 2006 Sheri: 1. A great meeting. Thanks so much. There is much that you can do, and maybe even more, outside of a formal MVP chair position. I will try and frame some things ASAP.

 

"That requires more documentation than someone's offhand email. "

Documentation provided.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Zakuska

[Russell C McGregor]

1 hour ago, Zakuska said:

Well its not like we didn't already have canonized scripture regulating Church/State Political involvement.(ala... D&C 134) that they chose to ignore during Prop. 8.

Wrong.

Once again, you fail to actually read what your quoted sources say.

And thus get your conclusions completely wrong.

Quote

It seems the church also forgot about this 1895 "Manifesto" from President Woodruff maybe it should have been Canonized too?

 

Not that it would do any good, and Probably just be ignored again.

 

Sigh.

Prop 8 was not a "political campaign." It had nothing to do with anyone running for office.

Prop 8 was a legislative initiative. It was an attempt to get righteous principles enshrined in law, by appealing to the voters of California.

And, let us remember, it was successful. It represented the true views of the majority of California voters. The wicked overturned it by appealing to corrupt lawyers and judges.

 

[Russell C McGregor]

18 minutes ago, Zakuska said:

Primary Source for the Elder Holland Endorsment and Don Sitrling and Sheri Dew

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/10/22/how_the_efforts_to_help_governor_romney_could_move_forward/

Emails is Legit...

 

And what was Sheri Dew's position in the Church as of October 2006?

Have you ever considered getting a clue, Zak?

[Zakuska]

34 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

And what was Sheri Dew's position in the Church as of October 2006?

Have you ever considered getting a clue, Zak?

Sheri L Dew CEO of Deseret Book. and Don Sterling  the Manager of Romneys polical Campaign had a Meeting with Elder Holland and received his Endorsment on their plan to funnel politcal contributions through their businesses.

So there you go REDACTED BY USER Russel.

Might I suggest you take a chill pill before you pop an artery.

 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

More Documentation of the Meeting Elder Holland had with CEO of Deseret Book Sheri L Dew and Don Stirling (Romeny's Political Campaign Director) about funneling Romney support through their Church owned Companies.

 

Quote

 

Letters to Sheri Dew regarding generating support for Romney

 

 

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/10/22/how_the_efforts_to_help_governor_romney_could_move_forward/

 

October 22, 2006

To: Sheri L. Dew

From: Don Stirling

Date: Friday, Sept. 8, 2006

 

Sheri:

 

1. A great meeting. Thanks so much. There is much that you can do, and maybe even more, outside of a formal MVP chair position. I will try and frame some things ASAP.

 

2. I had a positive meeting with Kem Gardner this week. Josh Romney was also there (one of Mitt's sons, who lives in UT). Kem said he had met prior with Elder Holland i n regard to how the efforts to help Governor Romney could move forward amongst the LDS community while not creating undue heartburn. (According to Kem, Elder Holland has been designated/assumed the role of coordinating these matters.) Elder Holland surfaced the idea of using BYU Management Society, and its locally-based organizations as a starting point to rally and organize the troops on a grass-roots level. Elder Holland subsequently surfaced the idea with Presidents Hinckley and Faust, who voiced no objections.  When I laid out the MVP program to Kem, the lights started to go off that it could be the BYUMS that provides foundational leadership at the State, Community or Neighborhood level. Also, Kem mentioned that he "had been chatting with Cathy Chamberlain, and that she wanted to organize local events and gatherings among women, which seems like a good idea, too. And these events could include Sheri Dew, among others, as well."

 

Kem then called Elder Holland's office while we were there and set up a meeting for Tuesday, September 19 at 4:00 PM to discuss the use of BYUMS, the MVP program, and to discuss, generally, what might be appropriate to do within the LDS community.

 

Would you feel comfortable in joining us for that meeting with Elder Holland? It would be Kem, the gentleman who manages BYUMS, myself, and Josh Romney. If you attended, my thought is it gives us a chance, as well, to explore with Elder Holland some things that Deseret Book/LDS Living might be able to bring to the table. If you don't, I would like to at least be able to reference that we have been also exploring ways that Deseret Book might be able to help (database/events/). Or, if you want me to remain silent on all things DB, I can do that, a well. Let me know.

 

3. Let me know if you can work things to join us in Georgia. I think you would be energized by the gathering. I have also put a note into Blake to see what if he is confirmed to attend, and what his travel (private or commercial) is going to be.

 

Thanks, Sheri.

ds

Don Stirling

Managing Partner

Rainmaker Sports & Entertainment

-----------------------------------------------------------------

To: Sheri L. Dew

From: Don Stirling

Date: Sunday, Sept. 17, 2006

 

Sheri:

 

Hope you are well. You'll enjoy the blog not below. I will confirm with Kem tomorrow the Tuesday meeting with Elder Holland (4:00 PM).  Will you be able to join us? Also, Spencer Zwick may be in town Saturday for a "discussion dinner" with a handful of key people (would love to have you join), including his father, to explore and identify names in as many of the states as possible, who could lead the MVP (Mutual Values & Priorities) amongst the LDS community. Gov would like to have Rick Eyre join that meeting as a source of names throughout the country, which is probably a pretty good call.

 

Do you think Ardeth might join a dinner meeting of this type? Again, informal group to explore and identify names of folks through the country. I would have Cathy join but I think she will be back in AZ.  Need to talk soon. Boston remains thrilled and excited that you are on the team. . . . No worries at all in passing on the chair position. At the end of the day, you are right . . . you can be of more help NOT having the title.

 

ds

 

 

http://mormon-chronicles.blogspot.com/2006/10/letters-to-sheri-dew-regarding.html

You are one more pot stirring thread away from going back on Limited.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Zakuska

[Russell C McGregor]

5 minutes ago, Zakuska said:

More Documentation of the Meeting Elder Holland had with CEO of Deseret Book Sheri L Dew and Don Stirling (Romeny's Political Campaign Director) about funneling Romney support through their Companies.

 

 

http://mormon-chronicles.blogspot.com/2006/10/letters-to-sheri-dew-regarding.html

Correction: it is "documentation" of second-hand reports of an alleged meeting.

Question: if this is what was really happening, and if it was actually being documented in the news media at the time, why wasn't it big news? Why wasn't it the main issue in the campaign?

Something smells fishy about this story.

Sorry.

[Walden]

27 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Prop 8 was a legislative initiative. It was an attempt to get righteous principles enshrined in law, by appealing to the voters of California.

And, let us remember, it was successful. It represented the true views of the majority of California voters. The wicked overturned it by appealing to corrupt lawyers and judges.

 

Your "popular opinion" argument considering Prop 8 is hilarious; your argument could equally be applied to the South about 60 years ago, when Plessy vs Ferguson represented the majority of Southerner's views during segregation, and allowed for the "separate but equal" conundrum that paved the way for segregated schools, drinking fountains, restrooms, etc. Even though the majority of Southerners agreed with the premise of Plessy vs. Ferguson, the Supreme Court shot it down in favor of equality, and rightfully so. 

It is also hilarious how you categorize lawyers and judges as "corrupt" when they do not side with your opinion; it begs the question about whether you only consider lawyers and judges as virtuous or trustworthy solely when their arguments align with your personal beliefs, or with the belief system of your particular god?

[Zakuska]

Here is a "Second Hand" Article printed on October 20, 2006 in Utah Valley's Herald Extra. About the Sheri Dew Letters reported by the Globe.

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JOE PYRAH - Daily Herald    
 

An article published Thursday in the Boston Globe suggests that officials of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, along with two BYU professors, may have improperly aided in marshalling political support -- and financial aid -- of church members behind a possible run for president by Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, who is a member of the church.

Such activity, if true, may violate Internal Revenue prohibitions on political advocacy by nonprofit groups, including churches. Both BYU and the LDS Church are incorporated as nonprofit, tax-exempt organizations.

There are approximately 5.7 million Mormons in the United States, which could be an influential bloc in a future presidential election. Romney has not announced his candidacy, but he is widely believed to be a front-runner for the Republican party.

The suggestion of political impropriety was dismissed by church spokesman Michael R. Otterson, who told Globe reporters Scott Helman and Michael Levenson in an e-mail that any allegations that church leaders were working to promote Romney were "nonsense." In an interview with the Daily Herald, Otterson objected to the article's "conspiratorial tone." He reiterated the church's policy on political neutrality, which was recently sent to congregations across the country.

The Globe article singled out BYU associate dean Steve Albrecht and dean Ned Hill of the Marriott School of Management, who sent e-mails using their university addresses and titles asking for support for Romney. The e-mails went to 50 members of the Management Society, the alumni association of the business school, and to 100 members of the school's National Advisory Council, the article said.

BYU spokeswoman Carrie Jenkins said Thursday that the university found out about Hill's and Albrecht's e-mails from a recipient in Texas. The matter was forwarded to a university attorney, who told the two the next day to stop.

The two did not have BYU approval, nor was the university aware of the campaign, Jenkins said.

"We do have a policy of political neutrality," she said.

When asked about the possibility of an IRS investigation, Jenkins said she didn't think it would be a problem because of the speed of the university's response. Albrecht acknowledged the mistake, Jenkins said, and neither man will be disciplined for his actions.

The article details how Romney supporters met with Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. It also tells of several BYU employees' involvement using university resources to stump for Romney in possible violation of IRS rules regarding nonprofit entities.

While BYU officials admit the mistake, church spokesman Mike Otterson on Thursday strongly disputed the Globe's report, which repeatedly cited "documents" indicating an intricate initiative involving the church. Otterson said he was not allowed to see the purported documents and could not comment on them.

At the heart of the article is a Sept. 19 meeting between Holland and his longtime friend Kem Gardner, Romney's son Josh and Don Stirling, a consultant for Romney's political action committee, Commonwealth PAC.

Otterson said the meeting was scheduled as a courtesy visit with Gardner with no agenda, and that Holland had no knowledge of the PAC until afterward.

When the meeting did turn to politics, Otterson said Holland reminded the men of the church's political neutrality, which precludes it from sponsoring candidates. In Otterson's version, when the discussion moved to the question of using BYU's business school alumni association as a way to garner support for Romney, Holland said the men should be speaking with the alumni group and not him.

The Globe article said that "documents indicate that Jeffrey R. Holland ... has handled the initiative and that he hosted a Sept. 19 meeting about it in his church office in Salt Lake City. ... Globe reporters observed Romney's representatives enter and leave church headquarters for the meeting."

According to the Globe article, documents also show that "Gardner had already met with Holland at least once to discuss the initiative" and that "Holland, a former BYU president, suggested using the alumni organization ... to build a network for Romney."

"Such a plan would give Romney an established infrastructure -- the alumni group has 5,500 members in about 40 U.S. chapters -- for raising money and generating support," the article said. Albrecht was among those invited eight days later to a private dinner with "prominent Mormons," and "they discussed the effort further."

The letters from Albrecht and Hill were headed "Dear Marriott School Friend," the Globe reported. "We are writing to you as a friend to see if you have any interest in helping Governor Romney by volunteering to serve as a Community or Neighborhood Chair."

"Governor Romney's chances for success are significantly enhanced and energized by people, such as you, who are willing to help him at the grass-roots level throughout the United States," the e-mail said.

The Globe article comes at a time when Romney's religion is under close scrutiny by other mainstream Christian groups and evangelicals who have long harbored animosity toward the LDS Church, even disputing its clear record of Christian faith. Despite their religious differences, however, Mormons and other conservative Christians have a lot of common ground politically.

"Some evangelicals may think that Mormons are going to hell," said Notre Dame sociologist Christian Smith in an article published earlier this week in the Herald. "But at the same time, they might think that it wouldn't be too bad to have one in elected office."

Romney's resume is considered so good that Republicans would typically jump at the chance to have such a candidate. Tall and athletic, he is a successful CEO and now governor of a traditionally liberal state. He also has a political pedigree: his father, George, was a three-term governor of Michigan. Romney was credited with the phenomenal financial success of the 2002 Olympics in Utah.

 

 

http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/197205/3/

 

Your right it is "fishy"... why is the church getting involved in Political Fund raising for a Candidate?

Edited December 23, 2015 by Zakuska

[Storm Rider]

Don and I served in the mission office on our missions along with Blake; both of them were great guys.  Interesting to read this post, but I fail to see what the fuss is about.  I guess I am just too dim-witted or I don't see boogeymen under the bed as often as others.  

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

How would we ever verify any question with the church, whether about Holland's involvement in this, or the overall church role in Prop 8? The church and its authorities are not particularly transparent. So since we can never really know how things are functioning we are left to speculate or simply throw up our hands and say "I'm sure everything is fine" and stop wondering.

 I recommend the latter.

As to transparency I do not care. Unlike almost every organization extant Church leaders are not accountable to the membership.

[Zakuska]

12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

 I recommend the latter.

As to transparency I do not care. Unlike almost every organization extant Church leaders are not accountable to the membership.

If they aren't "accoutable" to the members... why then are leaders ex-communicated for mis-appropriation of funds?

True story.  My Bishop who was working for the Finanicial and Auditing department for the church (Not sure what the real title is, He worked for years for the Utah State Tax commission) was jetting all over helping train Financial Clerks etc. in wards all over the world.   It was found out that the branch President in my Wifes home ward in Brasillia Brazil that the Bishop had been supporting his family for years on Church tithing funds.    When it was found out... Immediatley Ex communicated.

 

Edited December 24, 2015 by Zakuska

[The Nehor]

45 minutes ago, Zakuska said:

If they aren't "accoutable" to the members... why then are leaders ex-communicated for mis-appropriation of funds?

True story.  My Bishop who was working for the Finanicial and Auditing department for the church (Not sure what the real title is, He worked for years for the Utah State Tax commission) was jetting all over helping train Financial Clerks etc. in wards all over the world.   It was found out that the branch President in my Wifes home ward in Brasillia Brazil that the Bishop had been supporting his family for years on Church tithing funds.    When it was found out... Immediatley Ex communicated.

 

Being accountable to those above you in the Priesthood chain is not being accountable to the membership.