Kenngo1969 Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) ... Ken is a pretty decent fellow, so if possible, I'd hold out the olive branch and see if you can patch things up. He can be pretty scathing if you press one of his hot buttons, as I did at one point (he was actually rather restrained with you, from my viewpoint), but we've gotten over it. And no, I'm not going to tell you what that hot button is that I pressed. ... Ken went after you at one point? I don't even remember that. Did you rag on Utahns or something?Hello, Mr. Vice-President. Edited October 31, 2015 by Kenngo1969 1
Kenngo1969 Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Man, and here I was wishing that the contrast between the Irish and US constitutions would be carried forward a few pages... but instead we've got a Kenngo love-fest Hey, Ken, care to weigh in on which constitution is more religious? Oh, I'm definitely feelin' the love! As for your "religious constitution" question, no, thanks; I'd rather abstain. I had already gotten the popcorn out to watch the back-and-forth between you and Scott Lloyd on that one.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 31, 2015 Author Posted October 31, 2015 Hello, Mr. Vice-President. So curiosity got the better of me, and I looked it up. Holy regionalism, Batman! I do remember that now, very well. I had just forgotten it was jwhitlock who was involved. What a difference nearly four years makes! Thank God for "water under the bridge," right, guys?
Kenngo1969 Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) So curiosity got the better of me, and I looked it up. Holy regionalism, Batman! I do remember that now, very well. I had just forgotten it was jwhitlock who was involved. What a difference nearly four years makes! Thank God for "water under the bridge," right, guys? [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969]No doubt. JWhitlock, you know I love you, Bro! Edited October 31, 2015 by Kenngo1969 1
Teancum Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Man, and here I was wishing that the contrast between the Irish and US constitutions would be carried forward a few pages... but instead we've got a Kenngo love-fest Hey, Ken, care to weigh in on which constitution is more religious? (as motivation, I include the following emoticons: )(even better! I got an error message that I had too many emoticons. C'mon, Ken, we can bond on that and you can answer my question now, right?) You can keep the Irish Constitution. I am extremely pleased the USA has a secular Constitution and that people are very able to believe or not believe whatever they want.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 31, 2015 Author Posted October 31, 2015 No doubt. JWhitlock, you know I love you, Bro! Let's make it a group hug. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted October 31, 2015 Author Posted October 31, 2015 You can keep the Irish Constitution. I am extremely pleased the USA has a secular Constitution and that people are very able to believe or not believe whatever they want.A constitution that protects individual, God-given moral agency. One that restrains government and not churches. One that guarantees the free exercise of religion -- in public as well as private spheres. Call that a "secular Constitution" if you like. It is what it is. 2
TheSkepticChristian Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) OK. So where did Jesus talk about global warming? Edited October 31, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian
Teancum Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 A constitution that protects individual, God-given moral agency. One that restrains government and not churches. One that guarantees the free exercise of religion -- in public as well as private spheres.Call that a "secular Constitution" if you like. It is what it is. It is secular Scott in that it does not establish a state Church and it prohibits a religious test for political offices. And yes it does protect religious speech in the public and private spaces, But it also prohibits public and government institutions from promoting religious activities. That is why since the late 1950s school prayer has been considered unconstitutional. There are other numerous examples. It is not what I like. It is what it is. And it protects Mormons, Muslims, Evangelicals, Catholics, Buddhists, Atheist and other skeptics all alike. That is as it should be.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 31, 2015 Author Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) It is secular Scott in that it does not establish a state Church and it prohibits a religious test for political offices. And yes it does protect religious speech in the public and private spaces, But it also prohibits public and government institutions from promoting religious activities. That is why since the late 1950s school prayer has been considered unconstitutional. There are other numerous examples.It is not what I like. It is what it is. And it protects Mormons, Muslims, Evangelicals, Catholics, Buddhists, Atheist and other skeptics all alike. That is as it should be.It protects more than just religious speech. It protects "the free exercise of religion." Which means I am free to join with a group of like-minded believers to lobby congress, support candidates for office, purchase public property to convert it to private and religious use, to pray or read scripture on public premises, without having to put up with misapplied blather about "separation of church and state." Edited October 31, 2015 by Scott Lloyd 3
Scott Lloyd Posted October 31, 2015 Author Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) So where did Jesus talk about global warming? Edited October 31, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
jkwilliams Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) So where did Jesus talk about global warming?Mormon 9:2. Edited October 31, 2015 by jkwilliams
MiserereNobis Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 You can keep the Irish Constitution. I am extremely pleased the USA has a secular Constitution and that people are very able to believe or not believe whatever they want. The Irish Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, so people in Ireland are "very able to believe or not believe whatever they want." Your criticism is unwarranted -- in that regard there is no difference between Ireland and the US. Any other criticisms?
MiserereNobis Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 A constitution that protects individual, God-given moral agency. One that restrains government and not churches. One that guarantees the free exercise of religion -- in public as well as private spheres.Call that a "secular Constitution" if you like. It is what it is. The Irish Constitution does the same thing, but with the added recognition of the Most Holy Trinity and Our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom all these rights flow.
jwhitlock Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 So curiosity got the better of me, and I looked it up. Holy regionalism, Batman! I do remember that now, very well. I had just forgotten it was jwhitlock who was involved. What a difference nearly four years makes! Thank God for "water under the bridge," right, guys? You turned the rock over. Sigh...
jwhitlock Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 No doubt. JWhitlock, you know I love you, Bro! I know! You have me on speed dial.
jwhitlock Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Let's make it a group hug. Tell you what. Since you and ken live in the same state, you two get together for the hug. You can include me by proxy with a blow-up doll of your choice - though I am partial to Legolas. Post a picture!
Scott Lloyd Posted November 1, 2015 Author Posted November 1, 2015 The Irish Constitution does the same thing, but with the added recognition of the Most Holy Trinity and Our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom all these rights flow.Unlike Teancum, I have no problem with that. In fact it is consistent with Mormon scripture, specifically the Doctrine and Covenants.
Teancum Posted November 1, 2015 Posted November 1, 2015 Unlike Teancum, I have no problem with that. In fact it is consistent with Mormon scripture, specifically the Doctrine and Covenants.Odd your twist. I did not say I had a problem with it. I said I was glad the US constitution was different, which it is. 1
Teancum Posted November 1, 2015 Posted November 1, 2015 (edited) It protects more than just religious speech. It protects "the free exercise of religion." Which means I am free to join with a group of like-minded believers to lobby congress, support candidates for office, purchase public property to convert it to private and religious use, to pray or read scripture on public premises, without having to put up with misapplied blather about "separation of church and state."Sure. I agree. I am not sure why you are arguing with me on this point. I support religious freedom as well as the freedom from religion. I support your right to do all of what you say above. Our secular constitution does just that. You can pray all you want on public premises. Just don't impose it on others. Edited November 1, 2015 by Teancum 1
Teancum Posted November 1, 2015 Posted November 1, 2015 The Irish Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, so people in Ireland are "very able to believe or not believe whatever they want." Your criticism is unwarranted -- in that regard there is no difference between Ireland and the US. Any other criticisms? I apologize that I offended. It was not my intent. However I do have a question. If the Irish constitution in its body gives credit to the God of Christianity where does that leave a Muslim or a non believer? 1
MiserereNobis Posted November 1, 2015 Posted November 1, 2015 I apologize that I offended. It was not my intent. However I do have a question. If the Irish constitution in its body gives credit to the God of Christianity where does that leave a Muslim or a non believer? There was no offense; sorry if my silly response conveyed otherwise. They have the exact rights, privileges, and responsibilities as everyone else. Just because the constitution mentions Christianity in the preamble doesn't affect the laws and individual rights that are in the body of the text. 1
Stone holm Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Hard to argue with "Congress shall make no law ... prohibiting the free exercise [of religion]. You may not like it, but the presence of the language in the First Amendment is undeniable.That in nowise suggests that religious based logic is to be given preference or greater weight in the political market. In fact such would be contrary to the establishment clause.
Scott Lloyd Posted November 3, 2015 Author Posted November 3, 2015 That in nowise suggests that religious based logic is to be given preference or greater weight in the political market. In fact such would be contrary to the establishment clause. What it does do is provide that religion-based rights are given deference and "solicitude" that is unique, obviously by virtue of the free exercise clause.
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