Jump to content

The Underlying Principles For Mark E Petersen's Address


Recommended Posts

 

3) How am I to understand the following verses from the Book of Mormon so as to not conclude they justify a form of racism and racial segregation initiated by God himself, which I believe will be especially difficult to do in light of the fact that Church leaders like Elder Petersen did indeed appear to interpret these verses as a justification for racialism and segregation?

20 Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence.

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.

23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done. (2 Nephi)

My first suggestion would be to read the Bible. Do you believe Job was African? His skin turned black. You need to be consistent if you are going to support racist readings of scripture. You also need to explain why the BOM inexplicably starts talking about Africans rather than Nephites and Lamanites. That these verses have been used to support racism (and you might benefit from researching when that started) is no excuse for continued misreadings.

 

Now that the Church has renounced racism, the BOM has become a mirror into the readers' soul. 

Link to comment

Bobbie, I’m writing this on my lesser keyboard, so please excuse typos/missing words.

 

Given that there are approximately 46 billion grains of sand in a cubic yard of beach sand, and that there are believed to be more stars in the heavens that all the grains of sand on all the beaches of the world, it's easy to understand why LDS leaders like Joseph Fielding Smith believe the telestial kingdom will have the most inhabitants. But to each his or her own.

 

I can see where the understanding can come but note some of the logical problems with it…I don’t think God made children in a situation where most of them will fail. I think the belief was probaly furthered due to the early relationship the church had with people outside their community. That would definitely cement a more negative outlook to humanity. That stated it’s a guided imagery and obviously more symbolic than to be taken that litterally.

I suppose it's one thing to discard as worthless the pre-1978 statements of an Apostle of the Church, but discarding -- or disregarding-- controversial statements found in the Book of Mormom (the most correct book on earth) presents a much more problematic challenge. It causes me to wonder how one goes about explaining away the seeming racialist portions of narrative found in a sacred book of scripture given in purity to the world in these latter-days?

 

For the record, I find their statements interesting to note the evolution in mormon thought based on had doctrines and societal stances. I also don’t “explain away” per se the “racialist portions” in the bible, PoGP, or BoM. I just read them without the racist traditional assumptions that plagued societal thought for a very long time. I do this by using the scriptures to define what is meant by black and white, as opposed to superimposing our own socially-derived definitions onto the words.

You are surely aware of the fact that the Internet is awash with assertions made by anti-Mormons that the Book of Mormon is a racist document that justifies racism and racial segregation. So, if you're willing, please answer question number 3 as if it is being asked by an anti-Mormon who is giving you the chance to answer the charges that the Book of Mormon justifies racism and segregation based upon a curse pronounced and carried out by God himself:

3) How am I to understand the following verses from the Book of Mormon so as to not conclude they justify a form of racism and racial segregation initiated by God himself, which I believe will be especially difficult to do in light of the fact that Church leaders like Elder Petersen did indeed appear to interpret these verses as a justification for racialism and segregation?

20 Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence.
21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.
23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done. (2 Nephi)

#1 I learned a long time ago that one who is truly anti-mormon isn’t likely to listen to my full response, even when it is well documented. So honestly, I wouldn’t take the time to respond beyond: no it’s not a justification for racialism and segregation. I would then quote the gospel topics and remind them that LDS firmly believe in continuing revelation, that previous words do not trump current counsel, which makes said interpretation clearly false. And I’d leave it at that. Arguing beyond that with some obviously anti becomes circular and obnoxious.

 

#2I’m more concerned for the member or honest observer who may have heard something like this from whatever source (critical or not). I would point out that this is only maintained by cherry picking specific verses without the context of others to help define the words loathsome, “skin of blackness,” white, and “fair and delightsome.” In a broader context, the same language is used with curses or a god-following people but with other images that are clearly mean to be taken symbolically such as the tree of life, mists of darkness, pillars of fire that don’t burn, dark scales over one’s eyes, a veil or chains of darkness, robes cleaned white with Christ's blood, clean garments, countenances of light etc. These all point to a symbolic use to indicate a gospel oriented culture v a culture and lfe opposing God’s ways.  Even within this verse there would be obvious discrepancy to the idea of a race based reading. If a literal skin change were involved, how is it that repentance suddenly and immediately makes them not loathsome. Does their skin pigmentation suddenly alter by baptism? That makes no sense. Yet the BoM notes an immediate and radical change to  a form of lightness every time the Lamanites convert.

 

So that’s probably where I’d start.

 

With luv,

BD

Edited by BlueDreams
Link to comment

Bobbie, I’m writing this on my lesser keyboard, so please excuse typos/missing words.

 

I can see where the understanding can come but note some of the logical problems with it…I don’t think God made children in a situation where most of them will fail. I think the belief was probaly furthered due to the early relationship the church had with people outside their community. That would definitely cement a more negative outlook to humanity. That stated it’s a guided imagery and obviously more symbolic than to be taken that litterally.

For the record, I find their statements interesting to note the evolution in mormon thought based on had doctrines and societal stances. I also don’t “explain away” per se the “racialist portions” in the bible, PoGP, or BoM. I just read them without the racist traditional assumptions that plagued societal thought for a very long time. I do this by using the scriptures to define what is meant by black and white, as opposed to superimposing our own socially-derived definitions onto the words.

#1 I learned a long time ago that one who is truly anti-mormon isn’t likely to listen to my full response, even when it is well documented. So honestly, I wouldn’t take the time to respond beyond: no it’s not a justification for racialism and segregation. I would then quote the gospel topics and remind them that LDS firmly believe in continuing revelation, that previous words do not trump current counsel, which makes said interpretation clearly false. And I’d leave it at that. Arguing beyond that with some obviously anti becomes circular and obnoxious.

 

#2I’m more concerned for the member or honest observer who may have heard something like this from whatever source (critical or not). I would point out that this is only maintained by cherry picking specific verses without the context of others to help define the words loathsome, “skin of blackness,” white, and “fair and delightsome.” In a broader context, the same language is used with curses or a god-following people but with other images that are clearly mean to be taken symbolically such as the tree of life, mists of darkness, pillars of fire that don’t burn, dark scales over one’s eyes, a veil or chains of darkness, robes cleaned white with Christ's blood, clean garments, countenances of light etc. These all point to a symbolic use to indicate a gospel oriented culture v a culture and lfe opposing God’s ways.  Even within this verse there would be obvious discrepancy to the idea of a race based reading. If a literal skin change were involved, how is it that repentance suddenly and immediately makes them not loathsome. Does their skin pigmentation suddenly alter by baptism? That makes no sense. Yet the BoM notes an immediate and radical change to  a form of lightness every time the Lamanites convert.

 

So that’s probably where I’d start.

 

With luv,

BD

When delving into the subject of the curse God placed on the Lamanites, focusing on the outward physical "identifier" that enabled the Nephites to instantly recognize the cursed descendants of Laman and his followers misses the problematic core of the issue. Whether the race identifier is outwardly physical (e.g. skin color, eye shape, hair characteristics, eye color, etc), non-physical (e.g. language, culture, traditions, religion, etc) or inwardly physical (DNA), ultimately it all boils down to God treating the lineal blood descendants of one group of people differently than he treats the lineal descendants of another. And this becomes especially problematic when, according to basic LDS doctrine, successive generations of innocent children were born under that curse -- a most solemn and impactful decree from God that dramatically affected the lives of hundreds of thousands who came from the pre-existence to be born into the cursed bloodline.

And thinking you dodge the problematic racial bullet in all of this just because you don't personally believe skin tone was the race identifier that caused the Nephites to avoid and loathe the apperance of the Lamanites is shortsighted.

Coincidentally, just last night I saw a new movie, a German art film called "Phoenix." The film is set in post-WWII Germany and the lead character, Esther. Is a German Jew who was able to safely blend in with her gentile German neighbors until her true identity was betrayed to the German authorities by someone close to her. Thereafter she found herself trapped in the horrors of a concentration camp. But unlike the fictional Esther. there were thousands of German, Polish and other Jews of various nations (those who managed to obtain faked documents) who looked so "non-Jewish" that they were able to survive the war posing as Christians. For those who could have blended in but didn't survive, public records and yellow stars of David pinned to their clothing were the race identifiers.

The issue we must deal with (unless you see no need) in our discussion is not the outward race identifiers that accompany the Lord's mandated curses upon certain bloodlines, but, rather, the inward race identifier (DNA) by which the Lord either blesses or curses certain bloodlines.

If you are willing, here's your next question.

4) Are you accepting of -- and at peace with -- every aspect of the Book of Mormon's account of the curse the Lord placed upon Lamanites. and the many successive generations of innocent children born in that bloodline, as long as the outward race identifier placed by the Lord upon them was not dark skin?

Link to comment

"how is it that repentance suddenly and immediately makes them not loathsome"

Say the race identifier is not skin colour. Your comments still do not address how the curse is removed immediately through repentance.

The actual curse was being "cut off from the presence of the Lord." The mark of the curse was only a means provided by the Lord to make it possible for the uncursed to differentiate between themselves and the cursed. Once a cursed individual fully embraced the Gospel, the main component of the curse, spiritual death, was removed. More than anything else, it was the implacable hatred of the Lamanites toward the Nephites that made them a people to be avoided until the curse began to be lifted hundreds of years later in the days of Mosiah. But even then, the converted Lamanites took upon themselves the title of Nephites and were no longer known as Lamanites because the unconverted Lamanites were still under the curse.

Edited by Bobbieaware
Link to comment

the majority of the human family will inherit the telestial kingdom of glory

See D&C 76:67 and 109. "Innumerable" is "innumerable," regardless of the kingdom. So verse 109 does not imply that there are more in that kingdom than any other. Where do you think the “innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality; And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name” from D&C 138:12-13 will go?

Link to comment

See D&C 76:67 and 109. "Innumerable" is "innumerable," regardless of the kingdom. So verse 109 does not imply that there are more in that kingdom than any other. Where do you think the “innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality; And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name” from D&C 138:12-13 will go?

 

True, Often it's meant as just a vast number that would be hard for us to fathom. I can't fathom a billion distinct lives let alone 108 billion (the estimated amount of people to live on earth). It's like when God says there's worlds without number and the inhabitant of this earth being of such a great number as to be numberless but that to God all things are numbered to him (moses 1:27-37)

Link to comment

3) How am I to understand the following verses from the Book of Mormon so as to not conclude they justify a form of racism and racial segregation initiated by God himself, which I believe will be especially difficult to do in light of the fact that Church leaders like Elder Petersen did indeed appear to interpret these verses as a justification for racialism and segregation?

The verses refer to a specific tactic with limited scope and application which the Lord took with a specific people of a particular culture in a specific place and time because it was the most effective way to deal with them in the particular circumstances they (both Nephites and Lamanites) created. The verses say nothing about two races, or even about segregation (which the Lord did not enforce), as the groups were free to mingle. Theories to the contrary have been disavowed.

Link to comment

The issue we must deal with (unless you see no need) in our discussion is not the outward race identifiers that accompany the Lord's mandated curses upon certain bloodlines, but, rather, the inward race identifier (DNA) by which the Lord either blesses or curses certain bloodlines.

“Race” is a human invention; a social construct used to classify human beings. “Family” on the other hand was ordained of God. DNA identifiers follow the family, not the otehr way around; the family is determined by a couple's choice to marry and have children or to adopt, not by the couple's respective genetic identifiers; such is the preeminent nature of family that even sealing is subject to the choice to adopt children in creating them.

Link to comment

4) Are you accepting of -- and at peace with -- every aspect of the Book of Mormon's account of the curse the Lord placed upon Lamanites. and the many successive generations of innocent children born in that bloodline, as long as the outward race identifier placed by the Lord upon them was not dark skin?

This is cra-cra. If He made of one blood all nations of men, He made them of one skin also (see Acts 17:26-28)!

Link to comment

True, Often it's meant as just a vast number that would be hard for us to fathom. I can't fathom a billion distinct lives let alone 108 billion (the estimated amount of people to live on earth). It's like when God says there's worlds without number and the inhabitant of this earth being of such a great number as to be numberless but that to God all things are numbered to him (moses 1:27-37)

And my google search of "telestial kingdom, majority, inhabitants" didn't bring up anything I would hang my hat on!

Link to comment

The actual curse was being "cut off from the presence of the Lord." The mark of the curse was only a means provided by the Lord to make it possible for the uncursed to differentiate between themselves and the cursed. Once a cursed individual fully embraced the Gospel, the main component of the curse, spiritual death, was removed. More than anything else, it was the implacable hatred of the Lamanites toward the Nephites that made them a people to be avoided until the curse began to be lifted hundreds of years later in the days of Mosiah. But even then, the converted Lamanites took upon themselves the title of Nephites and were no longer known as Lamanites because the unconverted Lamanites were still under the curse.

It would be a tad more complicated than that. You are inserting your modern view of curse onto the text. It had a context and formula in ancient times. Google with words like curse, treaty, covenant and see if it helps.

Link to comment

4) Are you accepting of -- and at peace with -- every aspect of the Book of Mormon's account of the curse the Lord placed upon Lamanites. and the many successive generations of innocent children born in that bloodline, as long as the outward race identifier placed by the Lord upon them was not dark skin?

 

No. Not because I don’t think there was a curse upon the Lamanites. I disagree with some of the underlying assumptions that you’ve made about curses. This is going to be difficult to point out, because on the “identifier” I can’t figure out whether you believe it’s external, just a non-phenotyic genetic marker, or some cultural indication. I do not find these equivocal to race. Someone noted that race is a socially derived construct based on physiological differences. Jews, in general are not considered a unified race but a shared ethno-religious group.

 

 

When delving into the subject of the curse God placed on the Lamanites, focusing on the outward physical "identifier" that enabled the Nephites to instantly recognize the cursed descendants of Laman and his followers misses the problematic core of the issue. Whether the race identifier is outwardly physical (e.g. skin color, eye shape, hair characteristics, eye color, etc), non-physical (e.g. language, culture, traditions, religion, etc) or inwardly physical (DNA), ultimately it all boils down to God treating the lineal blood descendants of one group of people differently than he treats the lineal descendants of another. And this becomes especially problematic when, according to basic LDS doctrine, successive generations of innocent children were born under that curse -- a most solemn and impactful decree from God that dramatically affected the lives of hundreds of thousands who came from the pre-existence to be born into the cursed bloodline.

 

Cursed or not they would be answering for the sins of their own choices, not for the sins of their fathers. In that no one is treated differently before God. This is how Cain’s descendant, Lamech reentered into the curse by partaking in the exact same sin. Though others may be cut off, they didn’t necessarily partake in the satanic combinations/rituals and could still choose to follow goodness with the light they received (ie. Lamech’s wives, Adah and Zillah). They will still be judged by what they did with themselves in the circumstances given them. The circumstances that were wrought by the sins of another will not be placed on their heads, but the heads of the sinful predecessor. It may leave them separated for a time, but the sin will go to its originator, not the children themselves. Plus the curse, to me, is removal from a covenanted relationship with God. It doesn’t necessitate that they will experience the exact same eternal fate than those who willfully chose to disobey and forcefully reject God. You can see all of these principals in Jacob 3. In Jacob 3:3, Jacob goes as far as to separate the problem of filthiness from curse. They were not filthy like the Nephite men at this time, but still had a curse. And this curse is seen as not really theirs, but a residue of their ancestral father’s.  They could still end up cleaner in the end than the Nephites who were filthier because, a) they were in a covenantal relationship and b) they willfully chose to ignore it.

 

So in my mind it is not problematic, because God has said “all are alike” unto Him and he has created a way that all can have equal opportunity to come to Him….including those who may have been cursed in this physical existence because of the sins of their predecessors.

 

Also I don’t think that it was in any way a physiological marker (ether visible or genetic in markers). I believe it was a covenantal release, similar to, but not exactly like, excommunication today. What follows is the natural consequence of following one’s own pursuits. The culture that comes is a natural experience of violently leaving God’s fold. Likewise the removal of said curse is extremely simply: repentance. Being a Lamanite was a socio-political category, especially  the further on they went. People who were Nephites joined them and became Lamanites. There’s a sense that many of these joined groups maintained some cultural and social differences, so it’s not like their children were always literally mixing with the original Lamanite population. But to the Nephites, they were all equally Lamanites: forcefully separating themselves from the Covenant, often with threats of violence and endangerment to the covenant people. Post-zion era, it was entirely a socio-political category and in now way could be described as a literal lineage, but a religious/philosophical allegiance.  

 

One last thing, it’s not just simple traditions, religious, or cultural practices that will mark a curse: but wicked ones that promote the patterns of Satan: ie. violence, death, disparity between genders, and hatred.

 

 

And thinking you dodge the problematic racial bullet in all of this just because you don't personally believe skin tone was the race identifier that caused the Nephites to avoid and loathe the apperance of the Lamanites is shortsighted

Yeah, you lost me on this one.

 

 

The issue we must deal with (unless you see no need) in our discussion is not the outward race identifiers that accompany the Lord's mandated curses upon certain bloodlines, but, rather, the inward race identifier (DNA) by which the Lord either blesses or curses certain bloodlines.

What are these “inward race identifiers” in your mind?

 

I hope this illuminated at least some of my concerns with the assumptions I feel are in your post about the curse.

 

With luv,

BD

Link to comment

No. Not because I don’t think there was a curse upon the Lamanites. I disagree with some of the underlying assumptions that you’ve made about curses. This is going to be difficult to point out, because on the “identifier” I can’t figure out whether you believe it’s external, just a non-phenotyic genetic marker, or some cultural indication. I do not find these equivocal to race. Someone noted that race is a socially derived construct based on physiological differences. Jews, in general are not considered a unified race but a shared ethno-religious group.

Cursed or not they would be answering for the sins of their own choices, not for the sins of their fathers. In that no one is treated differently before God. This is how Cain’s descendant, Lamech reentered into the curse by partaking in the exact same sin. Though others may be cut off, they didn’t necessarily partake in the satanic combinations/rituals and could still choose to follow goodness with the light they received (ie. Lamech’s wives, Adah and Zillah). They will still be judged by what they did with themselves in the circumstances given them. The circumstances that were wrought by the sins of another will not be placed on their heads, but the heads of the sinful predecessor. It may leave them separated for a time, but the sin will go to its originator, not the children themselves. Plus the curse, to me, is removal from a covenanted relationship with God. It doesn’t necessitate that they will experience the exact same eternal fate than those who willfully chose to disobey and forcefully reject God. You can see all of these principals in Jacob 3. In Jacob 3:3, Jacob goes as far as to separate the problem of filthiness from curse. They were not filthy like the Nephite men at this time, but still had a curse. And this curse is seen as not really theirs, but a residue of their ancestral father’s. They could still end up cleaner in the end than the Nephites who were filthier because, a) they were in a covenantal relationship and b) they willfully chose to ignore it.

So in my mind it is not problematic, because God has said “all are alike” unto Him and he has created a way that all can have equal opportunity to come to Him….including those who may have been cursed in this physical existence because of the sins of their predecessors.

Also I don’t think that it was in any way a physiological marker (ether visible or genetic in markers). I believe it was a covenantal release, similar to, but not exactly like, excommunication today. What follows is the natural consequence of following one’s own pursuits. The culture that comes is a natural experience of violently leaving God’s fold. Likewise the removal of said curse is extremely simply: repentance. Being a Lamanite was a socio-political category, especially the further on they went. People who were Nephites joined them and became Lamanites. There’s a sense that many of these joined groups maintained some cultural and social differences, so it’s not like their children were always literally mixing with the original Lamanite population. But to the Nephites, they were all equally Lamanites: forcefully separating themselves from the Covenant, often with threats of violence and endangerment to the covenant people. Post-zion era, it was entirely a socio-political category and in now way could be described as a literal lineage, but a religious/philosophical allegiance.

One last thing, it’s not just simple traditions, religious, or cultural practices that will mark a curse: but wicked ones that promote the patterns of Satan: ie. violence, death, disparity between genders, and hatred.

Yeah, you lost me on this one.

What are these “inward race identifiers” in your mind?

I hope this illuminated at least some of my concerns with the assumptions I feel are in your post about the curse.

With luv,

BD

When I spoke of an "inward" race marker, I realize, after the fact, it was a rather imprecise way of referring to genetics, today's most reliable race identifier.

I agree with much of what you've said here, but you're way ahead of where I want to be in our discussion at this point in time, so I'll expound on these points at a later point.

Your next question:

5) What do you interpret the following verses from Alma 13 to mean?

3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.

5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared— (Alma 13)

Edited by Bobbieaware
Link to comment

And my google search of "telestial kingdom, majority, inhabitants" didn't bring up anything I would hang my hat on!

"Most of the adult people who have lived from the day of Adam to the present time will go to the telestial kingdom. The inhabitants of this lowest kingdom of glory will be ‘as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore.’ They will be the endless hosts of people of all ages." (Bruce R. McConkie)

"“From the reading of other passages we discover that there will be great multitudes embracing the vast majority of mankind, who will never be privileged to come back to dwell in the presence of the Father and the Son. These receive banishment from their presence, but not entirely do they get beyond the divine benediction.” (Joseph Fielding Smith)

You'll have to forgive me for having the temerity to choose Elder McConkie and President Smith as my supporting authorities on this disputed point.

Link to comment

“Race” is a human invention; a social construct used to classify human beings. “Family” on the other hand was ordained of God. DNA identifiers follow the family, not the otehr way around; the family is determined by a couple's choice to marry and have children or to adopt, not by the couple's respective genetic identifiers; such is the preeminent nature of family that even sealing is subject to the choice to adopt children in creating them.

I'm astonished you would go on in this way when as a knowledgeable Church member you know full-well the role chosen bloodlines have played throuought sacred history. I presume you have your patriarchal blessing and know which tribe of Israel to whom you are assigned? And you surely are aware of the fact that both the Bible and the Book of Mormon seem to be virtually obsessive about blessings flowing through chosen bloodlines? But I guess all the passages that focus on this inconvenient truth will have to be eventually ignored as we move forward into an increasingly politically correct future. After all, any reasonable person should know that in its own way speaking of blessed lineages is just as evil as speaking cursed ones. Sorry Abraham. It's a new day, so just go ahead disregard all that quaint but obsolete "stuff" promised to you and your descendants...

Edited by Bobbieaware
Link to comment

The problem with focusing on lineage inheritances good or bad based on 'blood' or DNA is go back 20 generations or so and any area is so mixed that everyone is of the same bloodlines. Go back more and blood is being shared across oceans. There is a good chance iow that almost everyone on earth is of Abraham's bloodline as well as Cain's.

Link to comment

When I spoke of an "inward" race marker, I realize, after the fact, it was a rather imprecise way of referring to genetics, today's most reliable race identifier.

 

Genetics is not a reliable race identifier. Because "race" is a socially derived indicator of certain phenotypic features that we deem important. The definition of what places someone in a specific race varies from culture to culture and region to region. Genetics can give us some indication of ancestral origins....but it's not a dynamic and complete picture of that either.

5) What do you interpret the following verses from Alma 13 to mean:

 

 

I’d break down verse three into semi-colons. It’s clear that these terms echo other verses to give a better sense of their meaning and context.

 

3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; - We are called and prepared in our premortal life. I take this in account things like 1 nephi 10:18 which states that the way was prepared for all men to have God manifested. I also assume it means all are called because of our exceeding faith/good works in saying that children are whole from the foundation of the earth (moses 6:54)….ie. we all chose to partake in Christ’s redemptive plan and not follow satan. Those who were not exceedingly faithful aren’t born here physically.

 

in the first place being left to choose good or evil; - This I tie to the wording in 2 nephi 2 where this life is where we have been left to truly choose good or evil

therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such. – on earth, those who have been ordained are done so because they have have excercised faith here. Their faith here “calls them” to the holy calling prepared for them. Preparatory redemption is also tied closely in D&C to the work we do for the dead. So all those who showed “exceedingly great faith” without the full knowledge of the gospel and in their own respects can receive what was prepared for them from the foundation of the world (ie. this holy order of God)

4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren. – reiterating what was stated above. Basically we are called to ordination because we are faithful in choosing good over evil when left to it on this 2nd estate.

5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren;  - See moses 6:54 again….all are born “whole”….so basically we came here to this earth on the same standing.

 

thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared— (Alma 13) – we are called based on choosing not to harden our heart on this 2nd estate (ie. earth). This call was made possible and prepared by the atonement of christ

 

Helpful also is the verses following:

 

10 Now, as I said concerning the holy order, or this high priesthood, there were many who were ordained and became high priests of God; and it was on account of their exceeding faith and repentance, and their righteousness before God, they choosing to repent and work righteousness rather than to perish; - speaking of those who had entered this in the past on earth.

11 Therefore they were called after this holy order, and were sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb. – again, their righteousness here called them to the holy order prepared for ALL of those who sought after righteousness on this earth.

12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God. – talking about the eternal blessings that are received by entering into the order of God…initiatory blessings elucidate this. These are the eternal promises that come from following the Gospel of JC and entering in His divine order of redemption and sanctification through the power of His atonement. An atonement that give all people, alive or dead, the opportunity to receive all that He has.

13 And now, my brethren, I would that ye should humble yourselves before God, and bring forth a fruit meet for repentance, that ye may also enter into that rest. – call for all of us to do this to also be called to this holy order and receive our rest.

 

 

 

With luv,

BD

Link to comment

"Most of the adult people who have lived from the day of Adam to the present time will go to the telestial kingdom. The inhabitants of this lowest kingdom of glory will be ‘as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore.’ They will be the endless hosts of people of all ages." (Bruce R. McConkie)

"“From the reading of other passages we discover that there will be great multitudes embracing the vast majority of mankind, who will never be privileged to come back to dwell in the presence of the Father and the Son. These receive banishment from their presence, but not entirely do they get beyond the divine benediction.” (Joseph Fielding Smith)

You'll have to forgive me for having the temerity to choose Elder McConkie and President Smith as my supporting authorities on this disputed point.

 

Mckonkie's Quote is from Mormon Doctrine, that as you know the church leaders were not exactly fond of. JFS quote states that from other passages we see this....but as I mentioned, this is not as clear as he states it. Rather their time and the conflicts in it probably drew credence to said interpretation. There is nothing that I could quickly find that references the telestial kingdom having the majority of humanity in the last 3-4 decades...that should say something.

Edited by BlueDreams
Link to comment

I'm astonished you would go on in this way when as a knowledgeable Church member you know full-well the role chosen bloodlines have played throuought sacred history. I presume you have your patriarchal blessing and know which tribe of Israel to whom you are assigned? And you surely are aware of the fact that both the Bible and the Book of Mormon seem to be virtually obsessive about blessings flowing through chosen bloodlines? But I guess all the passages that focus on this inconvenient truth will have to be eventually ignored as we move forward into an increasingly politically correct future. After all, any reasonable person should know that in its own way speaking of blessed lineages is just as evil as speaking cursed ones. Sorry Abraham. It's a new day, so just go ahead disregard all that quaint but obsolete "stuff" promised to you and your descendants...

A bloodline is God’s method of bringing souls into the world according to His understanding and foreknowledge. This is not the same as a race, which is man’s method of categorizing human beings according to his fallen understanding and knowledge.

 

The Abrahamic covenant (with ties before that to Noah, Enoch and back to Adam) was designed to expand throughout the earth, both through bloodline and adoption. We see this is the condition of the children of men today. A curse is very limited in scope and is not meant to be sustained generationally, on the contrary, the plan of salvation provides the way for it to be lifted through those servants of God (in this life or the next).

 

Only the rebellious, not God, preserve this “blood” in the land, the word “blood” being used to convey that which is forbidden, wicked practices, guilt, and the associated denial of blessings, and not a bloodline through which God has brought cursed souls into the world.

Link to comment

"Most of the adult people who have lived from the day of Adam to the present time will go to the telestial kingdom. The inhabitants of this lowest kingdom of glory will be ‘as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore.’ They will be the endless hosts of people of all ages." (Bruce R. McConkie)

"“From the reading of other passages we discover that there will be great multitudes embracing the vast majority of mankind, who will never be privileged to come back to dwell in the presence of the Father and the Son. These receive banishment from their presence, but not entirely do they get beyond the divine benediction.” (Joseph Fielding Smith)

You'll have to forgive me for having the temerity to choose Elder McConkie and President Smith as my supporting authorities on this disputed point.

Yea the two men most responsible for the current Mormom Fundamtlism trend in the church even though they are often thrown under the bus these days especially by those seeking to defend the church and wiggle out from under much of their nonsense...like what is quoted above.

Link to comment

"Most of the adult people who have lived from the day of Adam to the present time will go to the telestial kingdom. The inhabitants of this lowest kingdom of glory will be ‘as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore.’ They will be the endless hosts of people of all ages." (Bruce R. McConkie)

"“From the reading of other passages we discover that there will be great multitudes embracing the vast majority of mankind, who will never be privileged to come back to dwell in the presence of the Father and the Son. These receive banishment from their presence, but not entirely do they get beyond the divine benediction.” (Joseph Fielding Smith)

You'll have to forgive me for having the temerity to choose Elder McConkie and President Smith as my supporting authorities on this disputed point.

Sorry i missed this. Those are fine men to quote, but I wouldn’t hang my hat on them, just the keys they possessed. Being father- and son-in law, it is reasonable they would have shared the same perspectives. Would you mind providing the links or otherwise show the dates of their respective quotes? Or that they are in the latest editions of the original publication?

Link to comment

Sorry i missed this. Those are fine men to quote, but I wouldn’t hang my hat on them, just the keys they possessed. Being father- and son-in law, it is reasonable they would have shared the same perspectives. Would you mind providing the links or otherwise show the dates of their respective quotes? Or that they are in the latest editions of the original publication?

Let's be honest. Is it not true some here are being deliberately obtuse on this point? In section 132 of the D&C, the Lord makes it clear only a comparative few members of the human race are going to obtain full celestial glory...

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. (D&C 132)

Meanwhile, at the other end of the spectrum of resurrected heavenly glory, we are told the inhabitants of the telestial kingdom are so innumerable as to be comparable to "the sand upon the seashore." (did you know some naturally-occurring grains of seashore sand are so minute that just one square inch can hold one million grains?) A knowledgeable member of the Church would have to be deliberately obtuse to miss section 76's clearly intended meaning: that the majority of the human race will inherit a place within the telestial kingdom of glory.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...