The Love Of God

[savedbygrace]

May I share some words that I have just read in a book? I found them very comforting and encouraging.

"Precisely because God is infinite love, He is infinite tenderness. He overflows without measure because He is plenitude without limit. He has the perfection of tenderness because in Him is the perfection of majesty. He alone who is perfect worth can love what is worth nothing. He alone who has everything can fill what is empty. He alone who is supremely exalted can come down to the abyss of our lowliness. The depth of His loving condescension is measured by the exaltation of His greatness."

The infinite love of God, I think, is sometimes difficult to comprehend in our finite minds.

[hagoth7]

Reminds me of a quote by Joseph about the compassion of God. I might look it up.

[Ahab]

I have a tendency to want to weigh/balance such statements about his compassion and mercy with the other side of the scale which has to do with justice and setting things right.

And I usually have a picture in my mind as I think of what I refer to as his scales of justice and mercy, with an upright vertical post and a horizontal post going across it with something hanging from each side of the horizontal post.

Has anyone else besides me pictured a scale like this in their mind and thought about how it resembles a cross? Like the kind of cross our Savior hung on? And how that cross is a symbol of the scales of God which balances both justice and mercy?

God has to use a balanced scale otherwise it would be weighted on one side more than the other.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Ahab

[Hillel2]

I have a tendency to want to weigh/balance such statements about his compassion and mercy with the other side of the scale which has to do with justice and setting things right.

And I usually have a picture in my mind as I think of what I refer to as his scales of justice and mercy, with an upright vertical post and a horizontal post going across it with something hanging from each side of the horizontal post.

Has anyone else besides me pictured a scale like this in their mind and thought about how it resembles a cross? Like the kind of cross our Savior hung on? And how that cross is a symbol of the scales of God which balances both justice and mercy?

God has to use a balanced scale otherwise it would be weighted on one side more than the other.

[Hillel2]

Hello Ahab. In Kabbalah mysticism G-d's right hand is associated with khesed or kindness/mercy/grace. G-d's left hand is associated with gvurah or justice//severity/judgemet.

Heavenly punishment descends whenever we over-strenghthen the left hand with our sins. Between the two hands is the middle pillar or tif'eret which is the perfect balance. When we act the way we should, G-d extends kindness and justice in desirable proportions.

Your scale reminds me of this.

Moreover, in some forms of Christian kabbalah Jesus is identified with tif'eret.

[Bobbieaware]

May I share some words that I have just read in a book? I found them very comforting and encouraging.

"Precisely because God is infinite love, He is infinite tenderness. He overflows without measure because He is plenitude without limit. He has the perfection of tenderness because in Him is the perfection of majesty. He alone who is perfect worth can love what is worth nothing. He alone who has everything can fill what is empty. He alone who is supremely exalted can come down to the abyss of our lowliness. The depth of His loving condescension is measured by the exaltation of His greatness."

The infinite love of God, I think, is sometimes difficult to comprehend in our finite minds.

The author of that quote is Rev. Luis Martinez, former archbishop of Mexico City. He was a traditional Catholic who died in 1956. I find the quote quite wonderful. But whenever I hear non-LDS Christians extolling God's wondrous love (in this case a perfect love capable of redeeming even those who seem to be utterly devoid of any worth), I wonder how an endless hell. of unimaginable suffering. fits into their understanding of the divine scheme of things? If God is so willing to love and save even those who seem utterly unworthy of salvation, why, then, does he seem to so easily give up on so many of his children?

[Rain]

"why, then, does he seem to so easily give up on so many of his children?"

The word "seem" is key to me here. I struggle with the Old Testament big time. This last time I noticed though how many times "his hand is stretched forth still" is said and how often he stays his judgement for awhile longer.

I think if it seems he gives up easily thenx like when I read the OT in part or full before, we are missing all the time when he is patient with us.

In my own life there times when I am uncomfortable coming to the Lord yet again in repentance because I am doing the same wrong thing over and over again, but when I do go to him I find his hand stretched towards me and embracing me.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Rain

[bluebell]

why, then, does he seem to so easily give up on so many of his children?"

The word "seem" is key to me here. I struggle with the Old Testament big time. This last time I noticed though how many times "his hand is stretched forth still" is said and how often he stays his judgement for awhile longer.

I think if it seems he gives up easily then like when I read the OT in part or full before we are missing all the time when he is patient with us.

In my own life there times when I am uncomfortable coming to the Lord yet again in repentance because I am doing to same wrong thing over and over again, but when I do go to him I find his hand stretched towards me and embracing me.

 

I got the impression from BA's post that she was asking from the perspective of those Christians who are quick to condemn other people to an endless torment of hell in God's name.  

 

Like those people who laud how God is love and then teach that babies who die unbaptized will go to hell, or who believe that we are going to hell for no other reason than that we are Mormon and believe the wrong things.  Stuff like that.

[Bobbieaware]

why, then, does he seem to so easily give up on so many of his children?"

The word "seem" is key to me here. I struggle with the Old Testament big time. This last time I noticed though how many times "his hand is stretched forth still" is said and how often he stays his judgement for awhile longer.

I think if it seems he gives up easily then like when I read the OT in part or full before we are missing all the time when he is patient with us.

In my own life there times when I am uncomfortable coming to the Lord yet again in repentance because I am doing to same wrong thing over and over again, but when I do go to him I find his hand stretched towards me and embracing me.

I appreciate your remarks. But I should have made myself more clear. What I meant to say is this: If so many non-LDS Christians truly believe God is a being of perfect love and mercy, why, according to their belief, would he send so many average people, who are really not so terribly bad, to an endless hell of unimaginable pain and sorrow? It seems to me a God of boundless love, compassion and sympathy could do so much better.

[savedbygrace]

The author of that quote is Rev. Luis Martinez, former archbishop of Mexico City. He was a traditional Catholic who died in 1956. I find the quote quite wonderful. But whenever I hear non-LDS Christians extolling God's wondrous love (in this case a perfect love capable of redeeming even those who seem to be utterly devoid of any worth), I wonder how an endless hell. of unimaginable suffering. fits into their understanding of the divine scheme of things? If God is so willing to love and save even those who seem utterly unworthy of salvation, why, then, does he seem to so easily give up on so many of his children?

You are absolutely right, the book is True Devotion to the Holy Spirit.

As non LDS, I have no problem with the doctrine of hell, or punishment for sin, because that is what has been revealed to us in scripture. As Ahab pointed out, God is a perfect balance, He is love, but also justice, but that is always tempered by mercy. He is always ready to forgive, but He hates sin,which His own holiness cannot tolerate. I don't believe scripture shows that God easily gives up on anyone, quite the opposite in fact. Do I fear Hell? Yes, but greater than my fear of Hell is my desire to be with God and do His will, and I have absolute confidence in His grace, mercy and forgiveness.

[savedbygrace]

why, then, does he seem to so easily give up on so many of his children?"

The word "seem" is key to me here. I struggle with the Old Testament big time. This last time I noticed though how many times "his hand is stretched forth still" is said and how often he stays his judgement for awhile longer.

I think if it seems he gives up easily then like when I read the OT in part or full before we are missing all the time when he is patient with us.

In my own life there times when I am uncomfortable coming to the Lord yet again in repentance because I am doing to same wrong thing over and over again, but when I do go to him I find his hand stretched towards me and embracing me.

I think you have it right. And the fact that despite your sin, you still come back to Him for forgiveness, and you must be confident that you will receive it, this divine love is difficult to grasp sometimes. But in the word of the psalmist, if God should mark our sins, then who could stand?

[Ahab]

You are absolutely right, the book is True Devotion to the Holy Spirit.

As non LDS, I have no problem with the doctrine of hell, or punishment for sin, because that is what has been revealed to us in scripture. As Ahab pointed out, God is a perfect balance, He is love, but also justice, but that is always tempered by mercy. He is always ready to forgive, but He hates sin,which His own holiness cannot tolerate. I don't believe scripture shows that God easily gives up on anyone, quite the opposite in fact. Do I fear Hell? Yes, but greater than my fear of Hell is my desire to be with God and do His will, and I have absolute confidence in His grace, mercy and forgiveness.

I think God as our Father also wants to scare the Hell out of us sometimes rather than constantly telling us not to worry about anything because he loves us so much that he would never let anything bad happen to us.

As a perfectly balanced Father he sometimes wants to give us a hug while at other times give us a warning that we are doing something we shouldn't be doing.

Sometimes he has a look of being well pleased, and at some other times he is NOT well pleased with us and our bad behavior.

He isn't all happy and lovey dovey all of the time as some people seem to think he is all the time. There are actually quite a few things we do which he absolutely hates and abhors. But still he loves us and keeps wanting to teach us how we should be. The things we shouldn't do, and the things we should do. And the things that he thinks are funny.

[3DOP]

I appreciate your remarks. But I should have made myself more clear. What I meant to say is this: If so many non-LDS Christians truly believe God is a being of perfect love and mercy, why, according to their belief, would he send so many average people, who are really not so terribly bad, to an endless hell of unimaginable pain and sorrow? It seems to me a God of boundless love, compassion and sympathy could do so much better.

 

It is always a pleasure to ponder the thoughts of the "Awares". You raise an excellent question. I don't have an answer. In the other post you asked about how God could send His children to Hell. Again, no answer. But the question, if it applies to somebody else, doesn't apply to Catholic teaching.

 

I'll have more time if it is desired to document my remarks later. I have about ten minutes right now. The Catholic Church doesn't teach that average people, who are not so terribly bad, and are God's children, go to Hell. Only those whose hearts are fixed in unrepentant hatred of the good God who made them out of nothing and who offered them eternal life which they turned down throughout their lives, ignoring God's graces qualify for Hell. And even then...only after they get to defend themselves of the charges against them. Furthermore, the Church teaches that they don't even want to be in heaven. Of course, they don't want pain or suffering, but better that than contemplating the God they despise for eternity. None of the inhabitants of Hell are lovingly beseeching God's mercy. They hate God.

 

I couldn't describe that as "average people, who are really not so bad". In any event, I am fully confident in God's ability to absolutely convince ever rational creature of the justice of Hell on that Day when all stand before Him either on the right hand or on the left.

 

Gotta run. Obviously, we start from different presuppositions. We can't place LDS theology on top of a Catholic framework or vice versa.

[savedbygrace]

I appreciate your remarks. But I should have made myself more clear. What I meant to say is this: If so many non-LDS Christians truly believe God is a being of perfect love and mercy, why, according to their belief, would he send so many average people, who are really not so terribly bad, to an endless hell of unimaginable pain and sorrow? It seems to me a God of boundless love, compassion and sympathy could do so much better.

God could do so much better? Forgive me, but that really sounds arrogant, you are in danger of standing in judgement of God. Also to you and me, people may seem not so terribly bad, or to the world. But we are all sinners, and it is sin that God hates and cannot tolerate. There can be no sin in the presence of God. He is the judge, not us. He will judge impartially, fairly and with mercy. God is love, scripture tells us this, he doesn't want to lose one of his children, but if we insist on continuing to sin unrepentantly, then we put ourselves under His judgement. The original post is trying to show the majesty and magnanimity of God's love, how it constantly reaches down to us, because He wants us to be with Him. He is not partial or capricious, if we insist upon sinning without repentance then we reject His love, and there will be consequences of our own making.

[bluebell]

God could do so much better? Forgive me, but that really sounds arrogant, you are in danger of standing in judgement of God. 

 

She's making a judgement about your idea or interpretation of who God is, not God Himself.

[Bobbieaware]

God could do so much better? Forgive me, but that really sounds arrogant, you are in danger of standing in judgement of God. Also to you and me, people may seem not so terribly bad, or to the world. But we are all sinners, and it is sin that God hates and cannot tolerate. There can be no sin in the presence of God. He is the judge, not us. He will judge impartially, fairly and with mercy. God is love, scripture tells us this, he doesn't want to lose one of his children, but if we insist on continuing to sin unrepentantly, then we put ourselves under His judgement. The original post is trying to show the majesty and magnanimity of God's love, how it constantly reaches down to us, because He wants us to be with Him. He is not partial or capricious, if we insist upon sinning without repentance then we reject His love, and there will be consequences of our own making.

Boy oh boy did you misunderstand me. I don't know if you're a Latter-day Saint, but we believe God is so loving and merciful that he makes sure the Gospel is even preached to the dead who didn't repent while in the flesh. He does this so that in the end there will be very few souls, relatively speaking, who will be cast out of his presence forever. So it is a foundational belief of mine that God indeed DOES DO MUCH BETTER than many believe he does.

The point I was trying to make (apparently very poorly) is that many religious people claim that God is very merciful and loving, but then, according to their belief, he seems to act against that mercy and love when he casts untold millions into an endless hell of unimaginable horror without giving them ample opportunity to accept the Gospel and repent. One of the many reasons why I am a Latter-day Saint is because I believe the LDS faith presents a God who really proves he is loving and merciful by not giving up on the souls om men until they totally give up on him. And those who give up on the Lord are those who few who utterly refuse to repent, no matter how hard the he tries to persuade them to receive loving mercy at his hand.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Anakin7]

    Saved by Grace you use "He," "Him" for GOD of which LDS have no problem with however in non LDS christian theology GOD has no gender [Genderless just ask our LDS critic danielwood ! who is posting on our board]. Thank you .

 

    In His Eternal Debt/Grace

                Anakin7

[MDalby]

Reminds me of a quote by Joseph about the compassion of God. I might look it up.

 

Is this the quote you were referring to?

 

Our heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive. … God does not look on sin with [the least degree of] allowance, but … the nearer we get to our heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs.

(Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 257, 240–41)

[3DOP]

    Saved by Grace you use "He," "Him" for GOD of which LDS have no problem with however in non LDS christian theology GOD has no gender [Genderless just ask our LDS critic danielwood ! who is posting on our board]. Thank you .

 

    In His Eternal Debt/Grace

                Anakin7

 

Does danielwood speak for all "non-LDS christian theology"? Of course not. I think savedbygrace is Catholic like me. Where does danielwood go to church? It sounds like they are missing some important ideas. It might also be that you misunderstood danielwood.

 

 

God is revealed as Father. Male gender. All paternity in heaven and earth is named from or subordinated to Him as the type and model of fatherhood. "For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom all paternity in heaven and earth is named..." (Ep. 3:14, 15) Paternity, not neutrality, not maternity.

[Rain]

I appreciate your remarks. But I should have made myself more clear. What I meant to say is this: If so many non-LDS Christians truly believe God is a being of perfect love and mercy, why, according to their belief, would he send so many average people, who are really not so terribly bad, to an endless hell of unimaginable pain and sorrow? It seems to me a God of boundless love, compassion and sympathy could do so much better.

Understood. I was confused. My confusion kind of proves your point, because it sounded like you were confused when you were only showing how others feel. The 2 parts of what you said just didn't seem to align.

[3DOP]

Boy oh boy did you misunderstand me. I don't know if you're a Latter-day Saint, but we believe God is so loving and merciful that he makes sure the Gospel is even preached to the dead who didn't repent while in the flesh. He does this so that in the end there will be very few souls, relatively speaking, who will be cast out of his presence forever. So it is a foundational belief of mine that God indeed DOES DO MUCH BETTER than many believe he does.

The point I was trying to make (apparently very poorly) is that many religious people claim that God is very merciful and loving, but then, according to their belief, he seems to act against that mercy and love when he casts untold millions into an endless hell of unimaginable horror without giving them ample opportunity to accept the Gospel and repent. One of the many reasons why I am a Latter-day Saint is because I believe the LDS faith presents a God who really proves he is loving and merciful by not giving up on the souls om men until they totally give up on him. And those who give up on the Lord are those who few who utterly refuse to repent, no matter how hard the he tries to persuade them to receive loving mercy at his hand.

 

Catholics categorically reject what you say we believe. Here is what you say we believe:

 

...according to their belief, he seems to act against that mercy and love when he casts untold millions into an endless hell of unimaginable horror without giving them ample opportunity to accept the Gospel and repent.

 

 

We do not believe that a single soul is cast into an endless hell unless they have had more than ample opportunity to accept the light they have received and a chance to repent. There is no way that Catholics believe that God just willy nilly throws innocent and ignorant people into Hell just because they lived in the wrong time or place. They have to reject God's abundant grace. They have to reject "the light that shineth upon every man that cometh into the world".

 

Apparently, you hold that unless someone has heard and understood the Gospel they cannot be saved? We don't even believe that knowledge of the Gospel is absolutely necessary. God's mercy transcends the ordinary preaching of the Gospel, especially where the Gospel hasn't been preached! I was just reading a book yesterday about mystical experiences outside the Catholic Church that posed questions on why we cannot rule out the possibility that even in this life, non-Christians who respond lovingly to the light they have received, may attain to profound union with God. 

 

If we believed that every soul that never heard the Gospel in this life was automatically damned, then you might have a point. It seems like Mormons sometimes misunderstand non-LDS beliefs. We believe that God is good, and is a rewarder of goodness.  Anything that might be incompatible with goodness in God, we reject, just as you do. We are assured that when the the acts and motives of every heart is open to all, it will be revealed to the satisfaction of every soul and spirit that God is merciful, just, and worthy of all praise. 

[Bobbieaware]

Catholics categorically reject what you say we believe. Here is what you say we believe:

We do not believe that a single soul is cast into an endless hell unless they have had more than ample opportunity to accept the light they have received and a chance to repent. There is no way that Catholics believe that God just willy nilly throws innocent and ignorant people into Hell just because they lived in the wrong time or place. They have to reject God's abundant grace. They have to reject "the light that shineth upon every man that cometh into the world".

Apparently, you hold that unless someone has heard and understood the Gospel they cannot be saved? We don't even believe that knowledge of the Gospel is absolutely necessary. God's mercy transcends the ordinary preaching of the Gospel, especially where the Gospel hasn't been preached! I was just reading a book yesterday about mystical experiences outside the Catholic Church that posed questions on why we cannot rule out the possibility that even in this life, non-Christians who respond lovingly to the light they have received, may attain to profound union with God.

If we believed that every soul that never heard the Gospel in this life was automatically damned, then you might have a point. It seems like Mormons sometimes misunderstand non-LDS beliefs. We believe that God is good, and is a rewarder of goodness. Anything that might be incompatible with goodness in God, we reject, just as you do. We are assured that when the the acts and motives of every heart is open to all, it will be revealed to the satisfaction of every soul and spirit that God is merciful, just, and worthy of all praise.

I am well aware of the Catholic position. And I will admit I could have worded my posts more carefully to make it clear that even though the former Archbishop of Mexico City was the author of the wonderful remark quoted by the original poster, in reality I was thinking of other religious groups who seem to almost rejoice that God is going to condemn so many to and endless hell, while they simultaneously extol the wonders of the all-merciful God of love.

All the best...

Edited September 2, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[3DOP]

I am well aware of the Catholic position. And I will admit I could have worded my posts more carefully to make it clear that even though the former Archbishop of Mexico City was the author of the wonderful remark quoted by the original poster, in reality I was thinking of other religious groups who seem to almost rejoice that God is going to condemn so many to and endless hell, while they simultaneously extol the wonders of the all-merciful God of love.

All the best...

Okay.

All the best...

[Bobbieaware]

Catholics categorically reject what you say we believe. Here is what you say we believe:

 

 

We do not believe that a single soul is cast into an endless hell unless they have had more than ample opportunity to accept the light they have received and a chance to repent. There is no way that Catholics believe that God just willy nilly throws innocent and ignorant people into Hell just because they lived in the wrong time or place. They have to reject God's abundant grace. They have to reject "the light that shineth upon every man that cometh into the world".

 

Apparently, you hold that unless someone has heard and understood the Gospel they cannot be saved? We don't even believe that knowledge of the Gospel is absolutely necessary. God's mercy transcends the ordinary preaching of the Gospel, especially where the Gospel hasn't been preached! I was just reading a book yesterday about mystical experiences outside the Catholic Church that posed questions on why we cannot rule out the possibility that even in this life, non-Christians who respond lovingly to the light they have received, may attain to profound union with God. 

 

If we believed that every soul that never heard the Gospel in this life was automatically damned, then you might have a point. It seems like Mormons sometimes misunderstand non-LDS beliefs. We believe that God is good, and is a rewarder of goodness.  Anything that might be incompatible with goodness in God, we reject, just as you do. We are assured that when the the acts and motives of every heart is open to all, it will be revealed to the satisfaction of every soul and spirit that God is merciful, just, and worthy of all praise.

The only thing I will add is that the scriptures make it clear only those who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved, hence our belief that all, both living and dead, must hear and accept the Gospel of Christ before they can be be forgiven of their sins and saved.

[Ahab]

The only thing I will add is that the scriptures make it clear only those who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved, hence our belief that all, both living and dead, must hear and accept the Gospel of Christ before they can be be forgiven of their sins and saved.

A few references would be a nice addition here.

I'm aware of those that point out that none are saved except through Jesus Christ, and that the name of Jesus Christ is the only name by which anyone can be saved, but since the name of Christ is a reference to his authority and who he is I don't think it necessarily necessary that someone must "call upon the name of Jesus Christ" to be saved. Unless maybe you meant that someone just needs to call out (necessarily vocally???) for someone/anyone who can save them. Which would be Jesus Christ either personally or anyone else who acts in his name, with his authority.

I sometimes wonder myself just how much of the gospel needs to be preached for someone to catch on to the basic idea behind it all, too. Just the most basic ideas, maybe? Are the words "faith" or "repentance" or "baptism" really absolutely necessary, and in English? What if someone just thinks something about how it sure would be nice if someone could help them to become better off than they are, just feeling very frustrated with themselves and how they think of how bad something is.

I bet it wouldn't take much for our Father to come to their rescue regardless of what they heard or hadn't heard in their lives. I don't think anyone has to use the words "gospel" or "faith" or "repentance" or even "Jesus Christ" in English or Greek or in any other "language" except by pouring their heart and soul out to some unknown being who we just happen to know by his name.