Differentiating Between The Spirit And Our Own Thoughts

[TheSkepticChristian]

I have had that experience of a power, love and witness beyond my ability to replicate it, or generate it.  But it is after the trial of our faith that we receive the witness, not simply as proof to be devoured.  It exists but I cannot give it to you nor can any man provide evidence beyond their own testimony.

 

Good for you, I hope someday I can also experience (clearly experience) the power and love of God. 

 

Are you assuming that I don't pay my tithing, follow the commandments, and make sacrifices for my church? I have done many sacrifices for my God and religion. 

I been LDS all my life, I know what you are telling me. 

 

I have doubts, and simply want them to go away. 

 

I am not asking you to give me a strong testimony, I am simply looking for new advice. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[KevinG]

Good for you, I hope someday I can also experience (clearly experience) the power and love of God. 

 

Are you assuming that I don't pay my tithing, follow the commandments, and make sacrifices for my church? I have done many sacrifices for my God and religion. 

 

I have doubts, and simply want them to go away. 

 

I am not asking you to give me a strong testimony, I am simply looking for new advice. 

 

No, no, no...  I would not judge your circumstance or worthiness.  My statement was intended to illustrate that it is after a trial...  in other words don't give up because we receive revelation on God's timetable and under His conditions.  I assumed you were worthy but had simply not been given that clear witness yet.  Remember:

 

D&C 46: 11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.

12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.

 

13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

 

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

[Ahab]

Good for you, I hope someday I can also experience (clearly experience) the power and love of God.

Are you assuming that I don't pay my tithing, follow the commandments, and make sacrifices for my church? I have done many sacrifices for my God and religion.

I been LDS all my life, I know what you are telling me.

I have doubts, and simply want them to go away.

I am not asking you to give me a strong testimony, I am simply looking for new advice.

Faith from God will come to you as you receive his assurances to help you feel certain about the things God tries to teach you, and sometimes it's a very fine line between not having enough faith in the faith/assurances God has already given and simply not having enough faith/assurances given by God.

It seems to me that you are seeking to have your calling and election made sure, and that is a noble persuit. You'll have to decide for yourself when you feel God is giving you enough assurances/faith to help you feel certain, but while you are in search of enough confirmation you should take careful notice of the assurances God has already given to you.

As I said, it's a very fine line, and sometimes the difference is in your attitude as God reveals things to you.

[mfbukowski]

I hope you are not right, I am not after lab results or measurements.

I do think we need good reasons, wishful thinking is not a good reason.

You ARE looking for "lab results" but you do not recognize it.

What are "lab results"? They are other people's measurements of their experiences, reduced to linguistic statements, and then published through language into the communal verbal cosmos of human knowledge. They are NOT reliant only on one's own personal experience- they are by definition reliant on someone else's description!

What are you looking for? You are looking for what others have defined as "good reasons" which means "evidence". You have taken other people's definitions of what constitutes a religious experience- their verbal definitions- which in this case YOU CANNOT VERIFY FOR YOURSELF, and taken those descriptions as the way to judge your verbal definitions!

 

You are looking for the descriptions of other people to justify your personal beliefs in YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE.

I am looking to feel something special, perhaps a energy love or something that convinces me that God loves me, and something that takes away any reasonable doubt.

 

See what I mean?  And you ask others here what their descriptions of their experiences are to justify your belief or unbelief in your own experiences.  It is exactly like believing that you are not in love because a love poem does not fit your experience of love!

Have you ever been "several stories high" when in love?

Have you ever "heard a lark" where there were none?

Have you ever visited the moon?

Of course not- your SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE (which is what we are talking about) was different because YOU are you- and nobody else has YOUR subjective experiences.

 

That is the entire point here.  Do not compare someone's SUBJECTIVE DESCRIPTION of their experiences with yours AS IF THEY ARE OBJECTIVE.

 

"Wishful thinking is not a good REASON?" 

Faith is HOPE for things unseen!!!   Of course it has NOTHING TO DO WITH REASON!!!

 

This is hope for things which give your life meaning!!   It is like fighting and dying "for freedom" or "the flag", or saving your own children from a tornado by covering them with your body.  Is it reasonable to die for someone else?  

 

Do only stupid people die for others?   That is totally unreasonable behavior!

 

That is the problem, my answers are not clear. Perhaps your answers are, but not mine.  

I used to think they were clear, but not anymore. 

 

What has changed objectively to change that?  Nothing but your subjective assessment of what "clarity" is- and that is because you have bought into scientism hook line and sinker.

 

That is how confirmation bias works, your brain only looks for the successful experiences. 

There experience millions of events in our lives, so with enough time, miracles are bound to happen. 

 

 This is the problem!  What is a "successful experience"??  Success is in the eye of the beholder.  You are in a terrible traffic accident, and paralyzed for life.  Was that successful?  What if you learn a great life experience that alters your whole view of the world by having that experience??  Does that make it "successful"?

 

"Miracles are bound to happen"?  And that is a reason AGAINST faith??   Can you see how goofy that is?  It is being intentionally negative.  A miracle happens but it is not acknowledged as one because there are "millions of events" in one's life?

 

One is not good enough?

 

Your underlying argument is always always comparing your personal experience to the experience of others and using their criteria for reality.

 

You need to learn how to become a godling by organizing matter unorganized by creating your own interpretations and vocabularies for experience.

As long as you do not, you will be a an automaton spouting other people's understandings of the universe.  Do not parrot others- be your own man.  You are not a child so put aside childish ways.

 

I hope I am not being too tough on you- I am actually trying to jar you into thinking for yourself.  Create your own descriptions, and don't worry if you haven't been to the moon when in love.

[TheSkepticChristian]

 not been given that clear witness yet

 

I hope, but what if it never comes? that is my concern. 

 

 

Faith is HOPE for things unseen!!!   Of course it has NOTHING TO DO WITH REASON!!!

 

The church said 

 

"Individual members are encouraged to independently strive to receive their own spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of Church doctrine. Moreover, the Church exhorts all people to approach the gospel not only intellectually but with the intellect and the spirit, a process in which reason and faith work together." - Approaching Mormon Doctrine

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

 

You do need good reasons, for example a person should have good reasons before marring someone. 

Edited August 11, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[mfbukowski]

I hope, but what if it never comes? that is my concern. 

 

 

 

The church said 

 

"Individual members are encouraged to independently strive to receive their own spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of Church doctrine. Moreover, the Church exhorts all people to approach the gospel not only intellectually but with the intellect and the spirit, a process in which reason and faith work together." - Approaching Mormon Doctrine

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

 

You do need good reasons, for example a person should have good reasons before marring someone. 

I see.  If that is true then the church was contradicting itself wasn't it?

You used reason and reason gave you good reasons- or so you convince yourself- to leave the church or give up.   I don't think you quite have the concept here yet.

 

Having a good reason for getting married is entirely different that using reason to prove that a spiritual experience is true.

 

The entire thread I referred you to uses reason and only reason to debunk scientism and you seem to not have read it.  I am not saying

 

A good reason for using a flyswatter instead of a hammer is that fewer broken windows result.

 

  A good reason for getting married does not include scientific experimentation on your wife's brain to see if you are compatible and to make her prove that her experience of her love for you corresponds to reality.

 

Just imagine that conversation!

 

"Sweetheart, will you marry me?  But before you do, please describe your experience of love for me so we can analyze if your love corresponds to true love, without any confirmation bias"

 

Any girl would bolt for the door if she had any sense whatsoever!

 

I am sorry I guess I will never be able to help you

[TheSkepticChristian]

  A good reason for getting married does not include scientific experimentation on your wife's brain to see if you are compatible and to make her prove that her experience of her love for you corresponds to reality.

 

That is what I been saying, I am not after lab results. 

 

 

"Sweetheart, will you marry me?  But before you do, please describe your experience of love for me so we can analyze if your love corresponds to true love, without any confirmation bias"

 

but we should worry about confirmation bias, chance, and patterns that don't exist, that is a reason why some marriages fail. 

I am not saying that conversation is necessary, but they should be careful because it is a very important decision. 

 

Again, I am not looking for empirical evidence or something that you can measure. 

 

I simply want to feel the power of God, perhaps some divine energy inside me, or perhaps an extraordinary feeling that is beyond normal feeling, or something that simply makes my doubts go away. Don't you believe that God is powerful enough to make my doubts go away? Don't you believe he knows how to do that?

Edited August 11, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[pogi]

Here is something that you said that gives you more than sufficient reason to hope:

 

I simply want to know the gospel is true, like I used to, without any reasonable doubt. 

 

"Remember" is a common theme all throughout scripture.  We learn in scripture just how easy it is to forget spiritual feelings. 

 

The best thing that I have ever done is pray to know what personal stumbling blocks are keeping me from becoming one with God like I have always desired.  I did not have any serious transgressions, I paid my tithing, made sacrifices in my callings etc. etc. For all intents and purposes, according to LDS culture, I was a good saint and worthy of oneness with God, yet it was not there.  Because of this, doubts began to creep in.  I made a last ditch effort to become 100% vulnerable and malleable in the hands of the Lord and find out once and for all what this gospel was all about.  It was TERRIFYING!  As I pondered on why it was so scary for me to be vulnerable, I discovered my stumbling blocks.  They were and are many.  They are obvious to me now, but were not obvious at the time.  It is clear as day to me now why I could not feel the Lord in my life before, but again I emphasize, it was not clear to me then.  As I continue in daily mediation/prayer, I renew my commitment and desire for oneness with God and keep a prayer journal.  Often times the impressions come through writing for me.  I learned how to listen - that is key, because one thing that I have learned is how easy it is to forget.  My prayer journal is more sacred than any scripture to me, it has helps me to remember whenever I doubt, fear, or feel alone.

 

God revealed himself to me in a way that is undeniable, but it requires more than I thought it would.  I did not fully understand what it meant to "try his word" in other words, "plant the seed".  My relationship with God is unquestionable in my mind.  While I feel that I still have a long way to go in my "oneness" quest, I believe that it is attainable with good reason.  Because Alma 32 works for me, I have very good reason to believe that it will work for everyone.   If there is ever a hangup, it will always be on our end - I am not talking about sin, but we all have road blocks to perfect faith that often are not immediately recognizable.  Make sacred space for the Lord everyday and just listen, with your heart towards God, and He will fill your heart.  "Be still and know that I am God."

Edited August 11, 2015 by pogi

[Guest]

Our own thoughts usually lean toward the selfish, the vain and the arrogant. The Spirit is never leading in these dead end directions, instead they are uplifting, edifying and never self serving.

[Ahab]

I simply want to feel the power of God, perhaps some divine energy inside me, or perhaps an extraordinary feeling that is beyond normal feeling, or something that simply makes my doubts go away. Don't you believe that God is powerful enough to make my doubts go away? Don't you believe he knows how to do that?

1. Doubt is a choice, an action that you can choose to experience regardless of how much assurance and reassurance God or anyone else tries to convey to you.

2. No God can not and will not take your doubts away if you choose to hang on to your doubts. God can and already has assured you of something he wants you to know but he never will "make you" believe what he tells you. And you can even choose to doubt that God ever has or would tell you anything.

3. You can now choose at this moment to believe and feel certain about everything God has ever told you. And you are the only thing that can prevent that from ever happening. It is your choice. God already has and will continue to assure you of what he has told you.

[TheSkepticChristian]

God revealed himself to me in a way that is undeniable, but it requires more than I thought it would.  I did not fully understand what it meant to "try his word" in other words, "plant the seed".  My relationship with God is unquestionable in my mind.  While I feel that I still have a long way to go in my "oneness" quest, I believe that it is attainable with good reason.  Because Alma 32 works for me, I have very good reason to believe that it will work for everyone.  

 

I hope, see 1:15:10 to 1:18:30 

 

[SmileyMcGee]

Uh huh. Give God your demands and I am sure he will ship them right out.

God is not amazon.

Of course! Everybody knows Google is God!!!

[halconero]

It's a real talk. He gave it in the MTC, and I listened to it while I was there.

To clarify, I think the mission president's point was a little off. Elder Bednar's point was that there will be times where we're guided by the spirit and we may not be entirely aware. This guidance comes from righteous living. If we are trying to live in accordance with Gospel principles we will have the Spirit.

If something is awry or amiss, the Spirit can help direct us away from it or help us get back on the right path.

[HappyJackWagon]

1. Doubt is a choice, an action that you can choose to experience regardless of how much assurance and reassurance God or anyone else tries to convey to you.

2. No God can not and will not take your doubts away if you choose to hang on to your doubts. God can and already has assured you of something he wants you to know but he never will "make you" believe what he tells you. And you can even choose to doubt that God ever has or would tell you anything.

3. You can now choose at this moment to believe and feel certain about everything God has ever told you. And you are the only thing that can prevent that from ever happening. It is your choice. God already has and will continue to assure you of what he has told you.

Can you share an example where you chose to doubt something? Santa Clause, perhaps. In my experience we don't choose what we doubt or question. It's more of a natural, organic realization of an internal feeling. I can't force myself to doubt something I believe any more than I can choose to believe something I doubt. I can try to change some of the stimulus that informs the natural feelings I have but I can't force myself to believe or doubt anything.

 

If you can, you may just be playing mindgames with yourself.

[pogi]

Can you share an example where you chose to doubt something? Santa Clause, perhaps. In my experience we don't choose what we doubt or question. It's more of a natural, organic realization of an internal feeling. I can't force myself to doubt something I believe any more than I can choose to believe something I doubt. I can try to change some of the stimulus that informs the natural feelings I have but I can't force myself to believe or doubt anything.

 

If you can, you may just be playing mindgames with yourself.

 

Two Wolves - A Cherokee Parable

 

An old Cherokee chief was teaching his grandson about life...

"A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy. 
"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves.

"One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, self-doubt, and ego.

"The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. 

"This same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too."

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, 
"Which wolf will win?"

The old chief simply replied, 
"The one you feed."

 

One can indeed intentionally cause hope to overcome doubt where uncertainty is involved.  The opposite is also true.  The one that you 'choose' to feed will be the one that survives.

Edited August 13, 2015 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

Can you share an example where you chose to doubt something? Santa Clause, perhaps. In my experience we don't choose what we doubt or question. It's more of a natural, organic realization of an internal feeling. I can't force myself to doubt something I believe any more than I can choose to believe something I doubt. I can try to change some of the stimulus that informs the natural feelings I have but I can't force myself to believe or doubt anything.

 

If you can, you may just be playing mindgames with yourself.

I personally have decided to doubt every single teaching I have ever received in my life.  Lotsa philosophy types do that.  That is why I at least believe that I have a good reason- defined as good to me- to believe everything I believe.

 

But I have to admit I can be insufferable about it.  My dear wife puts up with my explanations of everything from the proper way to put away the peanut butter to everything else.  I drive my kids nuts with detailed explanations of why this or why that.

 

But I am always looking to challenge any belief I have.  I regularly doubt everything and go back down the list of why I believe what I believe.  But I know i am weird that way. 

 

It is kind of a compulsion to have everything be explainable.   If I do not have an explanation for something I see as a problem, I cannot sleep at night.

Edited August 14, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

The story is that is what Descartes did and came up the final thing he could not doubt was that he was thinking about doubt.  Cogito Ergo Sum.   I think therefore I am.

 

Unfortunately that created a dualism between us and thoughts that last a thousand years.   ooops.  See where doubt gets you? 

[Ahab]

Can you share an example where you chose to doubt something? Santa Clause, perhaps. In my experience we don't choose what we doubt or question. It's more of a natural, organic realization of an internal feeling. I can't force myself to doubt something I believe any more than I can choose to believe something I doubt. I can try to change some of the stimulus that informs the natural feelings I have but I can't force myself to believe or doubt anything.

If you can, you may just be playing mindgames with yourself.

I'll share the principle involved, the process, and let you come up with your own applications.

To doubt something is simply to question it, to think maybe it's not how it seems after all. To think of other possibilities if it isn't what you think it is after all. If you later determine that you can't figure out what it is then you will keep your doubts about it. You'll be uncertain about it instead of being sure what it is, but if you are able to get to the point where you can figure out what it really is, then you will be certain instead of uncertain. Faith is all about being sure of something, certain, instead of uncertain.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Ahab

[Ahab]

But I am always looking to challenge any belief I have. I regularly doubt everything and go back down the list of why I believe what I believe. But I know i am weird that way.

Try challenging yourself, again, on your idea that truth can't be defined.

I still have doubts that you really believe that, because for me it's very easy to define what truth is.

Not that everybody agrees with my definition, but oh well.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I love remembering the 2 times in my life when I truly felt the spirit hit my mind and body like it was a drug taking it's effect on me. One was when I was getting my patriarchal blessing and the other was a priesthood blessing right after my Bishop said I was forgiven of my sins and he got choked up too.

[Paradox_58]

 

It is kind of a compulsion to have everything be explainable.   If I do not have an explanation for something I see as a problem, I cannot sleep at night.

 

I think it is fascinating how we humans have such a need to know. One of the most elegant and beautiful things about my faith is that there is so much that is unknowable. It is the lack of certainty that gives my faith such power. When we are honest, there is so very much that is unknowable, that requires faith to accept, even if we try to explain it as "truth" or certainty. I studied history in college, where I quickly discovered that there were no "objective" historical facts, because all historical data is filtered through the perceptions of the person recording it, and even further by our own perceptions as we read it. Thus it is with the entire universe. Faith requires that we accept the realities that come to our spirit being, and accept that reality cannot be understood by our brain, our limited, helpless, and in a real way, hopelessly weak mortal understanding. Being able to "know" is something that only happens to our eternal spiritual being; at least that has been my experience. Yet we are so desperately stuck on "knowing." Even the awareness that I can't know most of the things in this world does not keep me from acting and thinking as if I do know. Faith, practiced despite mortal doubt, eventually gives way to my spiritual KNOWING--a knowing that is so deep and real that it cannot compare to knowing in any physical way. 

[SmileyMcGee]

I personally have decided to doubt every single teaching I have ever received in my life. Lotsa philosophy types do that. That is why I at least believe that I have a good reason- defined as good to me- to believe everything I believe.

But I have to admit I can be insufferable about it. My dear wife puts up with my explanations of everything from the proper way to put away the peanut butter to everything else. I drive my kids nuts with detailed explanations of why this or why that.

But I am always looking to challenge any belief I have. I regularly doubt everything and go back down the list of why I believe what I believe. But I know i am weird that way.

It is kind of a compulsion to have everything be explainable. If I do not have an explanation for something I see as a problem, I cannot sleep at night.

Regularly challenging one's beliefs is, in my opinion, an excellent and very honest practice. Some may see it as disloyal but it seems to me to be an expression of intellectual humility and recognition of how much we don't know. Great thoughts MFB! Edited August 14, 2015 by SmileyMcGee

[SmileyMcGee]

Try challenging yourself, again, on your idea that truth can't be defined.

I still have doubts that you really believe that, because for me it's very easy to define what truth is.

Not that everybody agrees with my definition, but oh well.

Yes, if only you could think more like Ahab...

[mfbukowski]

I think it is fascinating how we humans have such a need to know. One of the most elegant and beautiful things about my faith is that there is so much that is unknowable. It is the lack of certainty that gives my faith such power. When we are honest, there is so very much that is unknowable, that requires faith to accept, even if we try to explain it as "truth" or certainty. I studied history in college, where I quickly discovered that there were no "objective" historical facts, because all historical data is filtered through the perceptions of the person recording it, and even further by our own perceptions as we read it. Thus it is with the entire universe. Faith requires that we accept the realities that come to our spirit being, and accept that reality cannot be understood by our brain, our limited, helpless, and in a real way, hopelessly weak mortal understanding. Being able to "know" is something that only happens to our eternal spiritual being; at least that has been my experience. Yet we are so desperately stuck on "knowing." Even the awareness that I can't know most of the things in this world does not keep me from acting and thinking as if I do know. Faith, practiced despite mortal doubt, eventually gives way to my spiritual KNOWING--a knowing that is so deep and real that it cannot compare to knowing in any physical way.

Welcome to the board. That was a great post. We don't know each other but you will find that we agree on most points. It is wisdom to know what can be said and what cannot be said. I simply have very clear reasons for the inadequacy of language and what areas in which it is inadequate. That which cannot be spoken cannot be known except by the Spirit. But it is wisdom to know what is knowable and what is not.

[Ahab]

I think it is fascinating how we humans have such a need to know. One of the most elegant and beautiful things about my faith is that there is so much that is unknowable.

I'm going to do you the favor of translating your "unknowable" comment as a reference to the things we don't know. Not that we can't know them, given enough intelligence. They are just things we don't know due to a lack of enough information/intelligence/light and truth of those things.

It is the lack of certainty that gives my faith such power.

Then your faith doesn't have very much power, because faith is all about being sure/certain about something and you can't have any faith on things you are uncertain about.

When we are honest, there is so very much that is unknowable, that requires faith to accept, even if we try to explain it as "truth" or certainty.

The reason we need faith to accept something is because faith is what makes us certain about it. Without faith it is unknown, not unknowable, but unknown, pending more information/intelligence/light and truth about it. Faith is what gives us our Aha! moments, when we become certain about something and see it as it actually is. Without faith all we can be is uncertain, able to speculate but not really sure.

I studied history in college, where I quickly discovered that there were no "objective" historical facts, because all historical data is filtered through the perceptions of the person recording it, and even further by our own perceptions as we read it. Thus it is with the entire universe.

If that were true then we truly would be unable to know anything about anything. Fortunately we are not so doomed and are actually able to learn the way things are and were and even will be in the future.

Faith requires that we accept the realities that come to our spirit being, and accept that reality cannot be understood by our brain, our limited, helpless, and in a real way, hopelessly weak mortal understanding. Being able to "know" is something that only happens to our eternal spiritual being; at least that has been my experience. Yet we are so desperately stuck on "knowing." Even the awareness that I can't know most of the things in this world does not keep me from acting and thinking as if I do know. Faith, practiced despite mortal doubt, eventually gives way to my spiritual KNOWING--a knowing that is so deep and real that it cannot compare to knowing in any physical way.

The fact that our spirit can know means that we can know. We are spirits, currently mingled with a mortal body, and as long as we are spirits we are able to learn all that there is to be known.