Differentiating Between The Spirit And Our Own Thoughts

[Steve-o]

 

The reason we need faith to accept something is because faith is what makes us certain about it. Without faith it is unknown, not unknowable, but unknown, pending more information/intelligence/light and truth about it. Faith is what gives us our Aha! moments, when we become certain about something and see it as it actually is. Without faith all we can be is uncertain, able to speculate but not really sure.

 

I've always thought of faith more like placing trust in someone or something you can't be certain about. I have faith in Christ, trusting that he is real and can do the things he promises, even though I don't know with absolute certainty that he is real. I hope and I trust and act despite my uncertainty. To me, that is faith.

 

 

If that were true then we truly would be unable to know anything about anything. Fortunately we are not so doomed and are actually able to learn the way things are and were and even will be in the future.

 

To claim we know something from the past we must trust the source of that information as a perfect source. If it isn't perfect then our knowledge can't be perfect either. It seems like even the things we experience ourselves and think we know are filtered through our own abilities of perception and interpretation. I can have confidence in what I perceive as truth but I also must recognize that I'm as imperfect as any other source.

 

Perfect knowledge must be received from a perfect source and interpreted perfectly by the receiver. I've never really come across that much perfection in one place, but that doesn't mean we can't trust and have faith, especially when there are multiple witnesses testifying of the same facts.

[Ahab]

I've always thought of faith more like placing trust in someone or something you can't be certain about. I have faith in Christ, trusting that he is real and can do the things he promises, even though I don't know with absolute certainty that he is real. I hope and I trust and act despite my uncertainty. To me, that is faith.

What you're describing is actually hope. You hope Christ exists and you hope Christ is as good as you think he is, if he exists, and it seems reasonable to you to think he does exist and is good. Reasonable to you because of what you've read about him, which may have been written a long time ago by people you don't really know but who you hope and think are telling the truth.

When you have faith in Christ you will be sure and certain that he really exists, and that he is good. You won't just be hoping. You will be sure and certain about it. And then once you are absolutely certain, without a shadow of doubt, you will then have what most people in the Church mean when they say they "know" something.

It's also important that you get your faith and knowledge of Christ from Christ, too, rather than just convincing yourself of what you only hope is true. Faith from God through Christ and the Holy Spirit comes as you feel them assure you of something, and that feeling will also include some thoughts they will give you.

To claim we know something from the past we must trust the source of that information as a perfect source. If it isn't perfect then our knowledge can't be perfect either. It seems like even the things we experience ourselves and think we know are filtered through our own abilities of perception and interpretation. I can have confidence in what I perceive as truth but I also must recognize that I'm as imperfect as any other source.

That's why you need to receive faith and knowledge from our Father through Christ and the Holy Spirit, rather than only from one of us imperfect mortals or from you convincing yourself. Direct communication through revelation. Any word written or spoken by one of us fallible types just isn't worthy of all of your trust.

Perfect knowledge must be received from a perfect source and interpreted perfectly by the receiver. I've never really come across that much perfection in one place, but that doesn't mean we can't trust and have faith, especially when there are multiple witnesses testifying of the same facts.

Our Father and Christ and the Holy Spirit are perfect sources of knowledge, about everything. And when they know that you understand what they have told you they are perfectly capable of assuring you that you understand what they have told you. Not that you'll necessarily accept their assurances, but if you don't accept them it won't be because they didn't assure you so that you could be sure. It will be up to you to choose to accept the assurances they will give you, and as you do you will grow more and more sure until you are perfectly sure, without a shadow of doubt, unless you choose to allow yourself to doubt what they have told you. Edited August 14, 2015 by Ahab

[Steve-o]

 

When you have faith in Christ you will be sure and certain that he really exists, and that he is good. You won't just be hoping. You will be sure and certain about it.

I don't think so. Faith is putting my hope into action. It is what I do with the hope, not the substance or level of knowledge.

 

 

Our Father and Christ and the Holy Spirit are perfect sources of knowledge, about everything. And when they know that you understand what they have told you they are perfectly capable of assuring you that you understand what they have told you.

 

I agree, they are the only perfect sources of knowledge but they convey that knowledge to an imperfect understanding. They understand my limitation and don't expect my understanding to be perfect. I think they realize my understanding, at best, will only be  good enough. Not perfect

[Paradox_58]

I'm going to do you the favor of translating your "unknowable" comment as a reference to the things we don't know. Not that we can't know them, given enough intelligence. They are just things we don't know due to a lack of enough information/intelligence/light and truth of those things.

Then your faith doesn't have very much power, because faith is all about being sure/certain about something and you can't have any faith on things you are uncertain about.

The reason we need faith to accept something is because faith is what makes us certain about it. Without faith it is unknown, not unknowable, but unknown, pending more information/intelligence/light and truth about it. Faith is what gives us our Aha! moments, when we become certain about something and see it as it actually is. Without faith all we can be is uncertain, able to speculate but not really sure.

If that were true then we truly would be unable to know anything about anything. Fortunately we are not so doomed and are actually able to learn the way things are and were and even will be in the future.

The fact that our spirit can know means that we can know. We are spirits, currently mingled with a mortal body, and as long as we are spirits we are able to learn all that there is to be known.

 

I think there is a difference of perception here. I heard a great podcast a while ago that pointed out that in the field of physics, for instance, there are a number of journals published every year, most of them quarterly or bi-monthly. Likewise, in the field of geology, in the field of biology, and so on. Because we are limited by our mortal brain, by time, and by space, we simply are not capable of understanding all of that information--not even reading it! But I have faith that God knows all that, and thereby, at some point, when I am not limited by my mortal being, I might, too. That is hope--that is faith. There are so many things we simply are not able to know, at least not in this life, and no human being ever has or will, except Jesus Christ. I can even think of it in the simplest of terms: My husband is on a business trip to Denver today. Now, I believe he is in Denver, I trust that he is in Denver, my experience tells me that if he tells me he is there (which he did via Skype) then I can trust that. But in reality, I can't know it the same way I know that my chair is currently in front of my computer desk. I "know" he is in Denver, but that is, in full reality, only a trusting belief that he is in Denver. This it is with my faith in God, in Christ, at least until the day I have perfect knowledge (which I think is possible about Them even if I can't in this life have perfect knowledge of much else). 

[Thinking]

If we agree, we are both listening to the spirit.

 

If we disagree, I am listening to the spirit and you are listening to your own thoughts.

 

[Ahab]

I don't think so. Faith is putting my hope into action. It is what I do with the hope, not the substance or level of knowledge.

Are you acting with any degree of certainty about what you are doing, that it is a good thing to do or that it is what you should do, or are you just hoping you are doing the right thing? Faith is all about being sure or certain of something. You can trust anybody but are you sure and certain they are worthy of your trust? Or in the case of Jesus, are you even sure or certain that he exists? You can always do whatever you can do, but faith is about being sure of what you are doing.

I agree, they are the only perfect sources of knowledge but they convey that knowledge to an imperfect understanding. They understand my limitation and don't expect my understanding to be perfect. I think they realize my understanding, at best, will only be good enough. Not perfect

Are you ever sure your understanding is good enough, and more importantly, are you sure your sense of certainty is given by God?

Look in a dictionary to see what faith means. You can get it from anybody, but it is always best to get it from God.

[Ahab]

I think there is a difference of perception here. I heard a great podcast a while ago that pointed out that in the field of physics, for instance, there are a number of journals published every year, most of them quarterly or bi-monthly. Likewise, in the field of geology, in the field of biology, and so on. Because we are limited by our mortal brain, by time, and by space, we simply are not capable of understanding all of that information--not even reading it! But I have faith that God knows all that, and thereby, at some point, when I am not limited by my mortal being, I might, too. That is hope--that is faith. There are so many things we simply are not able to know, at least not in this life, and no human being ever has or will, except Jesus Christ. I can even think of it in the simplest of terms: My husband is on a business trip to Denver today. Now, I believe he is in Denver, I trust that he is in Denver, my experience tells me that if he tells me he is there (which he did via Skype) then I can trust that. But in reality, I can't know it the same way I know that my chair is currently in front of my computer desk. I "know" he is in Denver, but that is, in full reality, only a trusting belief that he is in Denver. This it is with my faith in God, in Christ, at least until the day I have perfect knowledge (which I think is possible about Them even if I can't in this life have perfect knowledge of much else).

We may be more in agreement than not, and mainly I was arguing against your idea that things are unknowable. You used a period when you said that. I know there are instances when we do not know something, but to say it is unknowable just isn't right. We can know later if we don't know right now. Everthing is knowable. There are just some times when we do not know what we can know. And we can get to the point when we know everything there is to be known.

[Steve-o]

Are you acting with any degree of certainty about what you are doing, that it is a good thing to do or that it is what you should do, or are you just hoping you are doing the right thing? Faith is all about being sure or certain of something. You can trust anybody but are you sure and certain they are worthy of your trust? Or in the case of Jesus, are you even sure or certain that he exists? You can always do whatever you can do, but faith is about being sure of what you are doing.

Are you ever sure your understanding is good enough, and more importantly, are you sure your sense of certainty is given by God?

Look in a dictionary to see what faith means. You can get it from anybody, but it is always best to get it from God.

I'm acting faithfully, in hopes that what I'm placing my trust in is correct. I don't have certainty of that and I don't know that anyone really does. If I have a perfect knowledge in something it wouldn't require any faith or trust to accept it because it would be known.

 

No, I'm never 100% certain my understanding is good enough which is why I keep searching for greater understanding. I think my understanding is good enough for now, but that won't be good enough in the future. I need to keep progressing which means the knowledge I have now is incomplete.

 

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Are you suggesting I take the Webster dictionary definition instead?

[mfbukowski]

I'm acting faithfully, in hopes that what I'm placing my trust in is correct. I don't have certainty of that and I don't know that anyone really does. If I have a perfect knowledge in something it wouldn't require any faith or trust to accept it because it would be known.

 

No, I'm never 100% certain my understanding is good enough which is why I keep searching for greater understanding. I think my understanding is good enough for now, but that won't be good enough in the future. I need to keep progressing which means the knowledge I have now is incomplete.

 

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Are you suggesting I take the Webster dictionary definition instead?

I say good for you.

 

Remember there is always more out there and it is a relative thing, and also remember that believing truth is relative is only relatively true.  Any good relativist will tell you that

[mfbukowski]

If we agree, we are both listening to the spirit.

 

If we disagree, I am listening to the spirit and you are listening to your own thoughts.

 

What if the spirit is our Ideal Selves, tapped into God ("The Universe" to a secularist) and God is teaching each what he needs to know?

 

Suppose we are all climbing a mountain and each needs a different hand hold because we have different rocks in the way or rungs on the ladder on the journey to the top?

 

"Up and to the right" might not work for everyone.

 

Does one teach quantum physics in first grade?

Edited August 16, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Ahab]

I'm acting faithfully, in hopes that what I'm placing my trust in is correct.

Still sounds like hope to me, with you using the term faithfully incorrectly. You have to be sure for it to be faith, and when you have 100% sureness/certainty then you can then be sure you have perfect knowledge on that issue.

I don't have certainty of that and I don't know that anyone really does.

People who are certain/sure on some issues have faith on those issues, meaning they are sure/certain on those issues. But don't worry about them. Just concern yourself with being sure, yourself.

If I have a perfect knowledge in something it wouldn't require any faith or trust to accept it because it would be known.known

Exactly. And before you get to that point you can go from hope to being sure, even if only kinda sure, to more and more sure until you know.

No, I'm never 100% certain my understanding is good enough which is why I keep searching for greater understanding. I think my understanding is good enough for now, but that won't be good enough in the future. I need to keep progressing which means the knowledge I have now is incomplete.

Are you 100% sure that you know at least one thing right now? And is there at least one other thing you are sure of even if you wouldn't say you know it with 100% certainty? I'm sure you know something and are sure of some other things. I don't just hope you do. I am sure you do. Even 100% sure, which is to say I know that.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Are you suggesting I take the Webster dictionary definition instead?

Take a look at the JST of Hebrews 11:1, to see a better idea of the kind of substance faith is. It's an assurance, and when you have it you can be sure of something you had only hoped for. It's the basic ingredient of what LDS call a testimony, the kind Paul called a good report in Hebrews 11.