Book Of Mormon Land In Baja

[bofmmodel]

No doubt your wrong, but we'd still like more info. We're all wrong about something, so don't feel bad about it.

 

Wrong?  Impossible!  Like every other model author before me, I'm certain that my ideas are flawless!  How dare you expect me to provide empirical evidence and logical arguments before you believe!

 

(kidding, of course)

[bofmmodel]

Oases generally don't provide the resources to support a large civilization. That's part of the reason they are called oases.

 

As I mentioned a moment ago in response to someone else, the "large civilization" concept is somewhat different in my model than you might expect.  I agree that the peninsula could not support millions of Jaredites (my model doesn't place these large-population events in the peninsula), but the peninsula with a somewhat wetter climate could probably support the numbers mentioned for the battles that occurred south of Cumorah.  It's arguable that even the current climate could support those numbers, but it doesn't look like we need to worry about that.  More and more evidence is being produced that shows that the peninsula did in fact receive more precipitation (both in quantity and in regularity) during Nephite times than it does today.  In addition, there are some indications that better soil conditions were present back then as well.

 

For example, one of my friends is a little packrat that lived in the area my model identifies as the land Desolation.  This little packrat literally lived near or during Mormon's lifetime and it left a midden that shows strong indications that the surrounding environment received twice the amount of precipitation compared to modern conditions.  It also indicates that there was significantly more soil covering the now-barren boulders surrounding his little home (See Late Holocene Plants, Catavina, Baja California, Julia T. Stankey, Thomas R. Vand Devender, and William H. Clark; The Southwestern Naturalist 46(1):1-7, Vol. 46, No. 1 (Mar., 2001) (pp. 1-7)).

 

My little packrat friend gives us a cute little peak into the past, but other strong evidence for patterns of heavier precipitation is being produced by several modern climate studies.  When time allows I will be writing more extensively about this on my website.

[jkwilliams]

As I mentioned a moment ago in response to someone else, the "large civilization" concept is somewhat different in my model than you might expect.  I agree that the peninsula could not support millions of Jaredites (my model doesn't place these large-population events in the peninsula), but the peninsula with a somewhat wetter climate could probably support the numbers mentioned for the battles that occurred south of Cumorah.  It's arguable that even the current climate could support those numbers, but it doesn't look like we need to worry about that.  More and more evidence is being produced that shows that the peninsula did in fact receive more precipitation (both in quantity and in regularity) during Nephite times than it does today.  In addition, there are some indications that better soil conditions were present back then as well.

 

For example, one of my friends is a little packrat that lived in the area my model identifies as the land Desolation.  This little packrat literally lived near or during Mormon's lifetime and it left a midden that shows strong indications that the surrounding environment received twice the amount of precipitation compared to modern conditions.  It also indicates that there was significantly more soil covering the now-barren boulders surrounding his little home (See Late Holocene Plants, Catavina, Baja California, Julia T. Stankey, Thomas R. Vand Devender, and William H. Clark; The Southwestern Naturalist 46(1):1-7, Vol. 46, No. 1 (Mar., 2001) (pp. 1-7)).

 

My little packrat friend gives us a cute little peak into the past, but other strong evidence for patterns of heavier precipitation is being produced by several modern climate studies.  When time allows I will be writing more extensively about this on my website.

 

Still, you have the problem of no cities, no large-scale agriculture, no populations of the size required, no flora or fauna of the type described (not even tapirs). What we see is thousands of years of forager societies, which is not what the Book of Mormon describes. 

 

I'm really struggling to see what your model has going for it. It just seems like such an obviously bad fit. I'm not trying to be offensive, but I just don't see it. 

[bofmmodel]

Skimming the page (333 slides that load rather slowly is too much), I note that you have Lehi arriving in the approximate area of Cabo San Lucas. Have you been there? Do you honestly believe the following description fits Cabo?

 

24 And it came to pass that we did begin to till the earth, and we began to plant seeds; yea, we did put all our seeds into the earth, which we had brought from the land of Jerusalem. And it came to pass that they did grow exceedingly; wherefore, we were blessed in abundance.

 25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the *** and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both ofgold, and of silver, and of copper.

 

Sorry, but this makes no sense. There's little to no water there (indeed, there's not enough water even for the relatively small tourist town today, so they have a desalination plant that processes sea water). Unless you want to argue for some kind of miracle, the story of tilling seeds that "grow exceedingly" and forests full of useful beasts is just not a fit at all. 

 

Sorry about the slow loading speed of the images.  Like most of the stuff on my site, it needs improvement, but cut me some slack.  I'm a bit of a one-man-band when it comes to this stuff and not everything gets the attention it deserves.

 

Regarding the site of Lehi's landing.  My model does show them landing around Cabo San Lucas, but this could just as easily be modeled with them landing around Todos Santos.  In fact, the Rosenvalls make a good enough argument for this that I will probably edit my model in the future to show the landing there instead of at Cabo.

 

The verses you quote span a pretty broad range of topics including climate conditions, soil conditions, flora, fauna, and metallurgy.  I work to give each of these topics individual attention on my site, but here's a brief response to each of the things you mention:

 

• Lehi's party was many orders of magnitude smaller than the population of the area at the time of historic contact.  The question of whether or not a small party had enough water to survive is an easy 'yes'.  A better question would be whether or not Limhi's people could find enough water to practice agriculture in the area.  There are several ways to address this better question, but one of the easiest examples to cite is the success of the Jesuits practicing agriculture in those areas in the 18th century.  Although their success varied at different times and in different places, they did successfully feed populations numbering in the thousands by practicing agriculture in those exact areas.  It could be done, even if the peninsula was as dry then as it is now.  If it received more precipitation during Nephite times then the argument just gets stronger.
• Would Lehi's crops grow in the cape region?  The Rosenvalls' working group has written extensively on this topic.  I would refer you to their website for this information.
• In regards to animals, please see my comments regarding the possible existence of Pleistocene Megafauna in the prehistoric peninsula in my article "Horses, Camels and Finding Some Long-Lost Fossils" as well as my page that addresses Book of Mormon fauna in particular.
• In regards to Nephi's description of precious metals in the peninsula, the cape region boasts mines that have produced large quantities of Gold and Silver that were easly-accessible to early Spanish mining efforts.  I don't know of any evidence of prehistoric use of these metals, but their existence in the area is not in question.

[rodheadlee]

 

Edited July 30, 2015 by rodheadlee

[jkwilliams]

 

Sorry about the slow loading speed of the images.  Like most of the stuff on my site, it needs improvement, but cut me some slack.  I'm a bit of a one-man-band when it comes to this stuff and not everything gets the attention it deserves.

 

Regarding the site of Lehi's landing.  My model does show them landing around Cabo San Lucas, but this could just as easily be modeled with them landing around Todos Santos.  In fact, the Rosenvalls make a good enough argument for this that I will probably edit my model in the future to show the landing there instead of at Cabo.

 

The verses you quote span a pretty broad range of topics including climate conditions, soil conditions, flora, fauna, and metallurgy.  I work to give each of these topics individual attention on my site, but here's a brief response to each of the things you mention:

 

• Lehi's party was many orders of magnitude smaller than the population of the area at the time of historic contact.  The question of whether or not a small party had enough water to survive is an easy 'yes'.  A better question would be whether or not Limhi's people could find enough water to practice agriculture in the area.  There are several ways to address this better question, but one of the easiest examples to cite is the success of the Jesuits practicing agriculture in those areas in the 18th century.  Although their success varied at different times and in different places, they did successfully feed populations numbering in the thousands by practicing agriculture in those exact areas.  It could be done, even if the peninsula was as dry then as it is now.  If it received more precipitation during Nephite times then the argument just gets stronger.
• Would Lehi's crops grow in the cape region?  The Rosenvalls' working group has written extensively on this topic.  I would refer you to their website for this information.
• In regards to animals, please see my comments regarding the possible existence of Pleistocene Megafauna in the prehistoric peninsula in my article "Horses, Camels and Finding Some Long-Lost Fossils" as well as my page that addresses Book of Mormon fauna in particular.
• In regards to Nephi's description of precious metals in the peninsula, the cape region boasts mines that have produced large quantities of Gold and Silver that were easly-accessible to early Spanish mining efforts.  I don't know of any evidence of prehistoric use of these metals, but their existence in the area is not in question.

 

 

Have you actually been to BC Sur or BC Norte?

[rodheadlee]

Oases generally don't provide the resources to support a large civilization. That's part of the reason they are called oases.

It's not my model. I've spent 2 years on the Baja. Give or take. We were on a sailboat.

[Calm]

Model, welcome to the board. I think no one will complain as long as you thoughtfully engage others' comments. We have seen posters who think "that's laughable" as the only response needed not lasting too long.

And when you get to be able to post your own thread (25 posts), focusing on one or two topics at a time rather than creating a dozen is prudent as well.

[bofmmodel]

Still, you have the problem of no cities, no large-scale agriculture, no populations of the size required, no flora or fauna of the type described (not even tapirs). What we see is thousands of years of forager societies, which is not what the Book of Mormon describes. 

 

I'm really struggling to see what your model has going for it. It just seems like such an obviously bad fit. I'm not trying to be offensive, but I just don't see it. 

 

On some of these points you're absolutely correct, but not on all of them.

 

The only evidence of cities is the existence of the road network centered around San Ignacio (Zarahemla in my model).  This is strong evidence, but these roads have been maintained and worked on a lot in early historic times so we have our work cut out for us in order to demonstrate the exact prehistoric nature of the road network (see here).  Until that work is done and done right, you are correct in saying that we don't have evidence of large cities in the prehistoric peninsula.

 

"No populations of the size required" is pretty vague.  Are you talking about the final Nephite and Jaredite battles around Ramah/Cumorah?  Because there's a big difference in the source populations for those battles in my model compared to the source populations for other references to population sizes in my model.

 

"No large-scale architecture" - absolutely true.  But which architecture are you referring to in particular?  One thing about a Baja model is that you need to cleanse your mind of paintings of Christ surrounded by Mayan temples and take a better look at the architectural descriptions in the text in order to understand a Baja model.  I address the subject of Book of Mormon architecture in detail in an article on my site.  

 

In regards to the flora I would refer you to the Rosenvall's website.  It is addressed well by them.

 

 

You said "What we see is thousands of years of forager societies, which is not what the Book of Mormon describes".  I think you should take a better look at descriptions of the Lamanites if you think the Book of Mormon doesn't describe a forager society.  The Lamanites far outnumbered the Nephites and Mulekites and they were the last known surviving Book of Mormon culture.  While I'd love to find better evidence of Nephite society, evidence for Lamanite society is plentiful and should not be ignored just because it's not as architecturally-cool as what we tend to envision when we think of Nephite society.

 

You are correct that I know of no evidence of agricultural practices in the prehistoric peninsula, but there are plenty of historical accounts of agriculture being practiced in the peninsula only to be washed away or otherwise erased by the natural forces that shape the peninsula.  The complete erasure of large agriculture fields and irrigation works was a common complaint of the Jesuits in the 18th century.  I do think that someday we might find evidence of ancient agriculture in the peninsula, but it's hard to rule-out Baja as a candidate location for Book of Mormon events based on the fact that ancient agriculture hasn't been detected yet.

 

Tapirs? You're right.  I don't know of any evidence of tapirs in Baja, or "flocks" of turkeys or other non-Book-of-Mormon species for that matter.  Please point me to the Book of Mormon verses that tell me I should be looking for evidence of tapirs and I will entertain that question.  I'll admit that I'm being a little sarcastic here, but I'm not trying to be terse or rude.  I understand that many Book of Mormon scholars have convinced us that Mormon and Moroni were describing tapirs and turkeys and deer and elk, etc..  Our model approaches the subject from a different angle.  We think that Baja was a place where Pleistocene megafauna might have survived longer than they did in other parts of the Americas.

 

Please see here and here to understand our thoughts on horses, elephants, camels, cattle, etc..  

[bofmmodel]

Have you actually been to BC Sur or BC Norte?

 

Ah, my least-favorite question.  No, I haven't been to Baja.  I'm a father of four from Texas who has spent a great deal of time studying historical and scientific accounts of the peninsula by my on-the-ground experience is entirely lacking.  Hopefully when I have fewer teenagers at home and more money in the bank I'll be able to spend some serious time in the peninsula, but until then I've left the Baja four-wheeling to the Rosenvalls and focused my efforts on information-gathering.

[bofmmodel]

Model, welcome to the board. I think no one will complain as long as you thoughtfully engage others' comments. We have seen posters who think "that's laughable" as the only response needed not lasting too long.

And when you get to be able to post your own thread (25 posts), focusing on one or two topics at a time rather than creating a dozen is prudent as well.

 

Thank you Calmoria,

 

I look forward to some good discussions.

[jkwilliams]

Ah, my least-favorite question.  No, I haven't been to Baja.  I'm a father of four from Texas who has spent a great deal of time studying historical and scientific accounts of the peninsula by my on-the-ground experience is entirely lacking.  Hopefully when I have fewer teenagers at home and more money in the bank I'll be able to spend some serious time in the peninsula, but until then I've left the Baja four-wheeling to the Rosenvalls and focused my efforts on information-gathering.

 

I've been there many times. It's remotely possible the geography now isn't what it was in Nephite times (but then that would screw up the model in itself), but it's an arid landscape that is not conducive to the kind of civilization that is described in the Book of Mormon. Sure, Lamanites were hunter-gatherers, but the Nephites couldn't have disappeared without a trace.

[ttribe]

I've been there many times. It's remotely possible the geography now isn't what it was in Nephite times (but then that would screw up the model in itself), but it's an arid landscape that is not conducive to the kind of civilization that is described in the Book of Mormon. Sure, Lamanites were hunter-gatherers, but the Nephites couldn't have disappeared without a trace.

 

I've not been there, personally, but wouldn't the landscape make any "hidden" city ruins well beyond unlikely?  IOW, wouldn't we have found evidence by now of the scale of cities described in the BoM?

[jkwilliams]

I've not been there, personally, but wouldn't the landscape make any "hidden" city ruins well beyond unlikely?  IOW, wouldn't we have found evidence by now of the scale of cities described in the BoM?

 

Yes, indeed. The reason for the seemingly continual discovery of ancient sites in Mesoamerica is the dense forest that has grown over the cities and obscured them. Pick a random spot in Baja California on Google Earth, and there's precious little foliage, and certainly not enough to hide ancient cities. 

[ttribe]

Yes, indeed. The reason for the seemingly continual discovery of ancient sites in Mesoamerica is the dense forest that has grown over the cities and obscured them. Pick a random spot in Baja California on Google Earth, and there's precious little foliage, and certainly not enough to hide ancient cities. 

 

Hmm, well, that seems to be a bit of a problem for said model.

[jkwilliams]

Hmm, well, that seems to be a bit of a problem for said model.

 

Yep. It might make sense if we were looking for the shape of a region that roughly corresponds to what's described in the Book of Mormon, but then as soon as we start looking at what's actually there, it pretty much falls apart. 

 

Off-topic, but Baja California is an amazing place. From the time I was about 8 years old, our family used to drive down the coast and camp on the beach there, sometimes on the Pacific side, and sometimes on the Gulf of California side. We would fish and surf and have a marvelous time for a week or until we ran out of food, then we'd come home. It's been a few years since my wife and I have been there, but it's one of our favorite places.

[ttribe]

Yep. It might make sense if we were looking for the shape of a region that roughly corresponds to what's described in the Book of Mormon, but then as soon as we start looking at what's actually there, it pretty much falls apart. 

 

Off-topic, but Baja California is an amazing place. From the time I was about 8 years old, our family used to drive down the coast and camp on the beach there, sometimes on the Pacific side, and sometimes on the Gulf of California side. We would fish and surf and have a marvelous time for a week or until we ran out of food, then we'd come home. It's been a few years since my wife and I have been there, but it's one of our favorite places.

 

I know a lot of people from the Phoenix area go to Rocky Point (aka Puerto Penasco) throughout the year, but I've never ventured down.

[bofmmodel]

I've been there many times. It's remotely possible the geography now isn't what it was in Nephite times (but then that would screw up the model in itself), but it's an arid landscape that is not conducive to the kind of civilization that is described in the Book of Mormon. Sure, Lamanites were hunter-gatherers, but the Nephites couldn't have disappeared without a trace.

 

I'm hoping that they didn't disappear "without a trace".  The problem with that argument is whether or not the Nephites' "trace" should have shown up in the archaeological record.  Modern people, including professional archaeologists in many cases, tend to think that "what we've found is what there was".  This often proves incorrect.

 

For example, just last year archaeologists discovered how little they knew about Stonehenge.  They now know that there are massive stone ruins that have been buried right under their noses there all along.  It's easy to underestimate the power of mother nature to hide ancient societies.  Just this week other archaeologists published a paper showing that the Brazillian rainforests themselves are largely a result of human occupation by tens of millions of people in vast cities that have gone undetected in modern times.

 

Do I wish we had direct evidence of Nephite civilization (or even a rough approximation of Nephite civilization) in Baja?  Of course, but I'm not throwing in the towel over the lack of archaeological evidence.  Knowledge of the prehistoric peninsula is growing and we hope that evidence does turn up someday.

[jkwilliams]

I'm hoping that they didn't disappear "without a trace".  The problem with that argument is whether or not the Nephites' "trace" should have shown up in the archaeological record.  Modern people, including professional archaeologists in many cases, tend to think that "what we've found is what there was".  This often proves incorrect.

 

For example, just last year archaeologists discovered how little they knew about Stonehenge.  They now know that there are massive stone ruins that have been buried right under their noses there all along.  It's easy to underestimate the power of mother nature to hide ancient societies.  Just this week other archaeologists published a paper showing that the Brazillian rainforests themselves are largely a result of human occupation by tens of millions of people in vast cities that have gone undetected in modern times.

 

Do I wish we had direct evidence of Nephite civilization (or even a rough approximation of Nephite civilization) in Baja?  Of course, but I'm not throwing in the towel over the lack of archaeological evidence.  Knowledge of the prehistoric peninsula is growing and we hope that evidence does turn up someday.

 

I'm just saying that, if I were looking for traces of the Nephite civilizations, I wouldn't be looking in Baja California. By your logic, Zarahemla could be buried just six feet beneath the National Mall, so we shouldn't throw in the towel over the lack of archaeological evidence. The Book of Mormon is pretty vague about its geography, hence the wildly disparate theories from the Yucatan to the "heartland" to the Malay peninsula. It's not that difficult to find a place on the map that roughly approximates the broad contours of Book of Mormon geography, but in every case, including yours, once you start looking beyond the broad geography, there's not much of anything. If anything, the "theory" that works best in terms of geography, flora, and fauna, is the Italian theory. 

[ttribe]

I'm just saying that, if I were looking for traces of the Nephite civilizations, I wouldn't be looking in Baja California. By your logic, Zarahemla could be buried just six feet beneath the National Mall, so we shouldn't throw in the towel over the lack of archaeological evidence. The Book of Mormon is pretty vague about its geography, hence the wildly disparate theories from the Yucatan to the "heartland" to the Malay peninsula. It's not that difficult to find a place on the map that roughly approximates the broad contours of Book of Mormon geography, but in every case, including yours, once you start looking beyond the broad geography, there's not much of anything. If anything, the "theory" that works best in terms of geography, flora, and fauna, is the Italian theory. 

 

Not possible.  No mention of spaghetti, pizza, or cool cars.

[jkwilliams]

Not possible.  No mention of spaghetti, pizza, or cool cars.

 

But they had horses and steel.

[bofmmodel]

Yep. It might make sense if we were looking for the shape of a region that roughly corresponds to what's described in the Book of Mormon, but then as soon as we start looking at what's actually there, it pretty much falls apart. 

 

Before you put the final nail in that coffin I would encourage you to take a look at what remains of the Jesuit missions from 18th century Baja.  You can fit the missions into two categories:  The ones that were maintained and the ones that were abandoned.  It's not hard to tell the difference by looking at the pictures.

 

These missions were population centers, many of which supported thousands of people at a time.  They are one of the closest analogues that is available to us to see what we could expect to happen to abandoned Nephite population centers and architecture.  Take a look at David Kier's "Viva Baja" website.  You'll see that all that is left of many of the neglected missions is just a few piles of adobe or rock walls/foundations, and that's after just 200-300 years of neglect.

 

I understand that it's disappointing not being able to go to the top of a Mayan Temple and pretend that your in a building that Christ may have visited, but you need to reconcile those kinds of expectations with the actual expecations of the text which often describe perishable architecture.  Also, the more permanent architecture that is specifically mentioned (ie:  walls) are abundant in Baja, but not easy to date.  There are walls and ruins that are actively being investigated but I'm not going to make unsubstantiated claims about them.  Dating rock walls and stone foundations is difficult business, and we honestly can't be sure what the results will be.

[ERayR]

Yep. It might make sense if we were looking for the shape of a region that roughly corresponds to what's described in the Book of Mormon, but then as soon as we start looking at what's actually there, it pretty much falls apart. 

 

Off-topic, but Baja California is an amazing place. From the time I was about 8 years old, our family used to drive down the coast and camp on the beach there, sometimes on the Pacific side, and sometimes on the Gulf of California side. We would fish and surf and have a marvelous time for a week or until we ran out of food, then we'd come home. It's been a few years since my wife and I have been there, but it's one of our favorite places.

 

One could happily become a beach bum and roam its beautiful coastlines.

[jkwilliams]

Before you put the final nail in that coffin I would encourage you to take a look at what remains of the Jesuit missions from 18th century Baja.  You can fit the missions into two categories:  The ones that were maintained and the ones that were abandoned.  It's not hard to tell the difference by looking at the pictures.

 

These missions were population centers, many of which supported thousands of people at a time.  They are one of the closest analogues that is available to us to see what we could expect to happen to abandoned Nephite population centers and architecture.  Take a look at David Kier's "Viva Baja" website.  You'll see that all that is left of many of the neglected missions is just a few piles of adobe or rock walls/foundations, and that's after just 200-300 years of neglect.

 

I understand that it's disappointing not being able to go to the top of a Mayan Temple and pretend that your in a building that Christ may have visited, but you need to reconcile those kinds of expectations with the actual expecations of the text which often describe perishable architecture.  Also, the more permanent architecture that is specifically mentioned (ie:  walls) are abundant in Baja, but not easy to date.  There are walls and ruins that are actively being investigated but I'm not going to make unsubstantiated claims about them.  Dating rock walls and stone foundations is difficult business, and we honestly can't be sure what the results will be.

 

It's not just architecture. It's technology, agriculture, populations, political structures, and so on--nothing in Baja comes close to matching what is described in the Book of Mormon. Take, for instance, high-heat technology. What do you think are the implications of high-heat technology, such as that described by Nephi? What should we see in the archaeological record if that technology was in use at that time (and, as described, by the Jaredites as well)? How is the impact of high-heat technology shown in the archaeological record of Baja California?

[jkwilliams]

One could happily become a beach bum and roam its beautiful coastlines.

 

I could. The last trip I ever took with my younger brothers was to an ejido on the Pacific Coast. We had our fishing poles and surfboards, and it was just perfect. We'd crack open mussels on the tidal cliffs and use them for bait, and then grill fish for dinner.